 Poster: A snowHead
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@endoman,
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have some summers tucked away in the garage for both cars, but never felt the need to swap back.
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Winter tyres do perform less well than summer tyres in temperatures above about 7 degrees. It's not just a awear issue but a safety issue. Then again, I'm not going to do a @Steilhang and suggest it is 'unsafe' to use winter tyres above that temperature.
I used to have a 6 series BMW and even with newish winter tyres on it was utterly useless in anything slushy/snowy. It improved slightly with the addition of 50kg of sandbags in the boot, but it was still atrocious.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@philwig, that's what I get being incomplete. Every snowy week of every winter I see SUVs in ditches beside the road. A mate had his terribly posh SUV just decide to give up in not stupid deep snow but quite a gradient as it no longer knew where to direct traction.
My argument is not that winter tyres are an essential in the UK but potentially beneficial enough to make them more worthwhile that usually considered.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I drove a friend's SUV with "all season" tyres from Lausanne to Aigle the other day, on flat terrain in a few cms of snow, ice and slush. The combination of heavy weight, high centre of gravity, plus the false sense of security of being able to get going, yet no traction for stopping or going around corners, was terrifying at times. It now won't surprise me to see so many heavy, luxury SUVs on summers in ditches in the Alps during the winter. Give me a small car with front wheel drive on winters (or even summers with chains in the boot) over an SUV with all seasons any day.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Is there actually any transport requirement to which one of those SUVs is the optimum solution? Where does their comparative advantage lie?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@endoman,
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have some summers tucked away in the garage for both cars, but never felt the need to swap back.
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Winter tyres do perform less well than summer tyres in temperatures above about 7 degrees. It's not just a awear issue but a safety issue. Then again, I'm not going to do a @Steilhang and suggest it is 'unsafe' to use winter tyres above that temperature.
I used to have a 6 series BMW and even with newish winter tyres on it was utterly useless in anything slushy/snowy. It improved slightly with the addition of 50kg of sandbags in the boot, but it was still atrocious. |
that tells quite a lot about the driver, isn't it?  the car is fine with proper equipment though
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@pam w, I think there is a limited sweet spot in terms of AWD, ground clearance and luggage volume, but I think for most people they don't need it.
In our case the finance and package on what we bought was also way superior to e.g. A6 Allroad which would probably also fit bill. Or indeed a Passat with AWD.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Where does their comparative advantage lie? |
Chelsea.
But each to their own. I used to have a more plebby SUV - a Honda HRV. With winter tyres it was great in snow as it was relatively light (body was thin as paper) and I used to see loads of them around here before they were discontinued.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Is there actually any transport requirement to which one of those SUVs is the optimum solution? Where does their comparative advantage lie? |
Driving through/over everything from 5cms of frozen ice (spilling from a stream during the day then freezing) on uncleared forest tracks to 30+cm of fresh snow to get over high passes in all weathers, remote huts and ski tour start points etc, while carrying me, friends and plenty of skis, while still having enough room for me to sleep in the back. I have been VERY glad to have 4x4 at times, and occasionally the ground clearance comes in v useful too. It's a Dacia Duster rather than luxury SUV mind, but a great 'sports utility vehicle' is exactly what it is. Obviously this is with winter tyres.
TBH a 4x4 estate from Audi/Volvo/Skoda/etc would likely do the job too. But they're all more expensive and more thirsty (or were when I was shopping).
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On the winter tyres front. They are simply safER in the Alps in winter when it's often below 8°C and often snowy. If you drive in summer tyres you are putting yourself, everyone in your car, and everyone else on the road at greater risk than they need to be. How much greater risk is up for debate, but that you are increasing the risk is indisputable. That includes people 'taking it easy' on their summers by driving along at half the normal road speed for the prevailing conditions (though indirectly) - if you can't keep up normal road speed and so are delaying/frustrating enough people that they feel the need to overtake YOU are still the problem.
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All the talk of snowmageddon... Last weekend it only took us 15/20 minutes longer than usual to drive 120km despite 5-10cms of snow SETTLED on the motorway and more falling heavily. No dramas, no sketchy moments, no people stopping to put chains on in the middle of the road, no one driving way too slowly or out skidding around. Why? Because everyone was on winter tyres. I'm amazed France doesn't mandate them in mountainous areas at least.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 18-01-17 14:27; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Is there actually any transport requirement to which one of those SUVs is the optimum solution? Where does their comparative advantage lie? |
I swop my previous 5 serries for a SUV and like it much more than a traditioal car. Much easier to get in/out (I'm 6.3). I go fishing, mushroom picking etc - the type of places I have to pass a SUV works better than 5 serries bmw.
The AWD - quite useful in winter, but you do need to understand that driving in winter or on snow is completly different from summer driving. The falce sense of security is mostly because of ignorance (just like in skiing - some believe that Norrona jacket, fancy goggles, etc make a person a better skier  ) The useful bit of AWD - last Sat in Chamonix parking was full of snow. SUV on summers and chains were struggling in a parking lot (although to be fair they had an A sign (L in EN) on their car so tells more about the driver rather than chains) while I had no problems navigating in deep snow betweeen stuck cars and leaving the parking.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Is there actually any transport requirement to which one of those SUVs is the optimum solution? Where does their comparative advantage lie? |
Pulling an 1800kg caravan out of a muddy campsite
Having three proper seats in back for kids (not 2+1)
Huge boot
Being able to get 5 bikes on roof
Those are my requirements for which a 4*4 fits the bill - it's nice for trips to Apls but have done it many times in normal car so agree not essential
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@clarky999, quite a lot of Italy do.
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You know it makes sense.
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@clarky999, Nail on head mate, all 3 counts.....the French would never implement a snow tyres policy, there'd be too many strikes and demo's, vive la liberte etc!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| Is there actually any transport requirement to which one of those SUVs is the optimum solution? Where does their comparative advantage lie? |
A lot of it depends on what you mean by 'those' SUV's. Every car is a compromise and certainly some are more compromised than others. There are plenty of transport requirements for which something like a LandRover Discovery is the optimum solution. Bizarrely, the same is also true of a Range Rover. IMO the more difficult area is the 'soft roaders' such as the VW Tiguan, the BMX X1 (and probably X3), the Audi Q3, and the OP's Mercedes R-series. None of these have any real off-road capability but that doen't mean they aren't a great choice for some people. Our village is primarily accessed by a single track road with a few un-paved passing places. If you need to pull into one of those, then a sports car will get damaged, a normal saloon may get a bit stuck, but an SUV is perfect.
Of course, the other genuine advantage of an SUV is that it lets you see over quite a few of the hedges and can really help visibilty. Better view of the countryside too!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@foxtrotzulu, I think I've mentioned before that until recently I've been driving a BMW X1 rwd and a BMW 1 series rwd. With winter tyres of course. Never had to mount chains on either of them, nor had to weigh down the rear, and I do spend quite a bit of time in the Alps. Now I have a 4x4 BMW 218. Has been performing just fine in all the snow we have had recently, but have not yet been up any serious mountain passes with it.
As for 'doing a Steilhang'; frankly I couldn't care less whether you mount winter tyres or not. Fact is that below 7°C summer tyres have less grip. I'm not much bothered if you slide off the road, but I do really care if you take me with you, that's all.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My all wheel drive is basically an estate car with 8 inches of ground clearance. It's a Subaru Forester so the flat 4 engine keeps front weight low and although not a proper off roader it can handle some fairly rough tracks. On Nokian winter tyres I've driven up twisty steep mountain roads when the ski busses have had to put snow chains on. As said above though, 4WD does not tend to help descending and you need to drive appropriately for the conditions. If I was at the point where chains were needed then I would not be driving as there is too much risk of someone else hitting you. Anyhow, in Austria winter tyres are compulsary, when everyone else is using them you don't want to be the car on summer tyres that ploughs into the line of traffic ahead when they all brake with no problem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There are plenty of transport requirements for which something like a LandRover Discovery is the optimum solution.
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I agree there are some - it's just few buyers actually have those requirements in my experience 
@mooney058,
I absolutely understand why an SUV is a much better bet than a RWD 5series in rugged or snowy conditions. Our 535D M sport was pretty scary in snow (LOADS of torque through the rear wheels on wide tyres), too firm to be comfortable on bumpy roads (and given the woeful standards of our local potholes that is pretty much all of them round us) and the clearance below the skirts meant you had to be careful with kerbs let alone bumpy tracks. Great to drive under good conditions though.
That said I reckon our replacement skoda octavia scout is a superior harsh conditions road car to a SUV - lighter and lower centre of gravity, raised just enough to give ground clearance for rutted snow etc. But I do see why SUVs are nice if you are 6'3.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Steilhang,
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@foxtrotzulu, I think I've mentioned before that until recently I've been driving a BMW X1 rwd and a BMW 1 series rwd. With winter tyres of course. Never had to mount chains on either of them, nor had to weigh down the rear, and I do spend quite a bit of time in the Alps. Now I have a 4x4 BMW 218. Has been performing just fine in all the snow we have had recently, but have not yet been up any serious mountain passes with it.
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I don't doubt any of that for a second. I'm just confused why you told me. I've obviously missed the point you were making or my point that you were responding to.
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As for 'doing a Steilhang'; frankly I couldn't care less whether you mount winter tyres or not. Fact is that below 7°C summer tyres have less grip. I'm not much bothered if you slide off the road, but I do really care if you take me with you, that's all.
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I'm sure you don't care, but if you want to play that game then the fact is that winter tyres have less grip than summer tyres above 7°C. Does that mean you change your tyres every time the temperature varies either side of 7 degrees? What would you do today if you were to drive from London (4 degrees) to Liverpool (9 degrees)? Whatever tyres you were running you would be 'unsafe' on part of your journey. Please don't think I don't appreciate the merits of winter tyres - I change my UK tyres over religiously in the Autumn and Spring, but I do think you are over-reacting to make a blanket statement that running summer tyres is unsafe below 7 degrees.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@jedster,
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I agree there are some - it's just few buyers actually have those requirements in my experience
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I don't know about only a 'few' buyers who have those requirements, but I agree there are certainly some who never take their 4x4's off-road at all. Then again, it's not always easy to tell. I know of several people who live in London and drive 4x4's. What you wouldn't know without asking them is that they use those cars to the full off-road potential when they not in London. I always think a bit of a give-away is the wheels. If you drive a serious 4x4 coupled with low profile road tyres then I think you're a touch daft, but it's a free country.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Is there actually any transport requirement to which one of those SUVs is the optimum solution? Where does their comparative advantage lie? |
Hair dressers getting into their salons in winter.
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@foxtrotzulu, you indicated that your BMW 6 series was not drivable in snow unless you weighed it down at the back. I found that surprising, so told you about my experiences with other BMWs, that's all.
I have never heard that winter tyres have less grip above 7°C. Where do you get that information from? I read some ADAC tests which indicate that at temperatures of 10-13C the difference between a winter and summer tyre are not very significant. At temperatures of 35C they were quite significant.
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There are two issues: avoiding accidents and avoiding fines.
In signed areas you can avoid both by driving carefully whilst being properly equipped for the conditions, i.e. snow/ice covered roads.
Snow chains and/or 4x4+winter tyres (snowflake) meet that condition.
Naturally, if you get stopped by police, you must observe the "The police are always right" rule, and whatever you do, never attempt the "But someone on the Snowheads ski forum said..." defense.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Both Germany and Austria as I understand it the two mainland European countries requiring by law that you fit suitable tyres for winter use specifically proscribe that the tyres are marked as M+S.
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@jedster, I refer you to my earlier response, I have yet to find anything else which meets my requirements apart from a Disco
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It has been well below freezing for more than a fortnight here in Austria and forecast to continue in the same vein for at least the next week. Anyone on summer tyres here deserves whatever Darwin throws at them. Winter tyres with chains in the car are required period. The road from the Inntal to resort has been closed to anyone without 4wd or chains at least 4 times in the past 2 weeks. As I have said before the first time you wish you had the correct equipment will be the last.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Picked up some snowsocks last week, (50Eur v 200 for chains in Argentiere) they were a lot easier to put on and great on hard pack in Chamonix on Saturday and Sunday but they were shredded by Tuesday on a mix of snow, slush and tarmac. Anyone heading out, I have some chains on Ebay from last car 5 years ago and never used!
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| Steilhang wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu, you indicated that your BMW 6 series was not drivable in snow unless you weighed it down at the back. I found that surprising, so told you about my experiences with other BMWs, that's all.
I have never heard that winter tyres have less grip above 7°C. Where do you get that information from? I read some ADAC tests which indicate that at temperatures of 10-13C the difference between a winter and summer tyre are not very significant. At temperatures of 35C they were quite significant. |
OK, I understand your comment now, but there is of course an absolutely massive difference between a 6 series and a 1 series. Both in terms of torque and also in terms of tyre size.
Your probably right. The difference between summer and winter at, say, 10 degrees are pretty small. By the same token, the differences just below 7 degrees are also pretty small. When you get to, say, plus 35 or minus 35 then they are much bigger. It's true that winter tyres may work better as an all season tyre than a 'summer' tyre but my point is that 7 degrees is not a temperature at which won't tyres become infinitely better and summers become unsafe (and vice versa). We should also not conflate cold temperatures with snow. Winter tyres will be markedly better in snowy conditions at +1 degree, but only marginally better in dry conditions at -5 degrees.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ski3 wrote: |
| Both Germany and Austria as I understand it the two mainland European countries requiring by law that you fit suitable tyres for winter use specifically proscribe that the tyres are marked as M+S. |
As you probably know, M+S tyres are not the same as winter (cold weather tyres) and nothing like as good in snow. What you need is the 3PMS mark (mountain with snowflake inside) rather than 'M+S'. The latter is often legal but very little use in real winter conditions.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Snow chains in Lidl today.
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FAQ
very competent vehicle.
