Snow chains or winter tyres

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@mooney058, that's not a very good analogy, drinking and driving, and no I wouldn't condone that. That would prevent you making reasoned decisions which is clearly not the case here.

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@foxtrotzulu, yes I totally agree with you.

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Surely it depends on which resort @diggerdave, is driving to as to how necessary winter tyres are. Some resorts are quite easily accessed from well cleared auto-routes and others require nerves of steel to drive up in slippery conditions. We regularly drive to the Swiss Alps but because of the nature of the last 15 Kms or so I would never contemplate having anything other than a decent set of snow tyres on my car in the winter. The road has about 25 hairpins mostly with 500 m drops if you get it wrong plus it crosses a 500m cliff with passing spots every 50m because it is not wide enough for two cars to pass. The gradient exceeds 10% in several places, I know them all intimately through cycling the road in the summer.
Several work colleagues have tried the drive with and without winter tyres and generally seem to arrive as nervous wrecks usually phoning me up when they get there to ask if they can raid the wine cellar to calm the nerves. For what it's worth we drive an A3 with Michelin Alpina winter tyres just occasionally the car bottoms out on deep snow but this is very rare on the main roads as the Swiss are so efficient at clearing them. A 4x4 would avoid this for sure but I couldn't be doing with driving one around all year.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

The OP is driving to Flaine at the end of March. The road up to Flaine is as good as you'll get in the Alps - two lane all the way with some tight hairpins but always crash barriers. I've driven up and down it 14 times mostly in February usually in a Volvo estate but once (in 1981) in a Triumph 2500, always on summer tyres. The first four occasions were in cars without ABS. I've needed chains two or three times only. The road is cleared quickly after a snowfall. I take it easy and let the French speed past me presumably on winter tyres.

I should add that cars have moved on considerably in that time period and I think there is now a tendency to expect to drive the same way all year round due to the cosseting effect of modern cars with ABS and various other brake assist systems, excellent though these are. Look how close people drive on the motorway - crazy. There is no doubt that winter tyres will sometimes keep you out of trouble where summer tyres might not, but you still need to drive according to conditions. Many an AWD SUV with winters tyres has slid off the road or collided with another vehicle. It is increments in protective equipment and systems that have no doubt helped with vehicle safety. For this thread I guess it is a question of what is considered a minimum specification to drive up a particular mountain road in early Spring.

Well put @billb, I found that route as you've described it.

You made a very important point about approach to any road conditions and how you moderate pace and progress in tackling any risks you meet.

Some of the posts on tyre threads immediately go to complete and utter failure if you don't comply with their views, if that were the case regarding grip you'd surely get no crashes on completely dry tarmac with the grippiest tyres you could possibly imagine. We all can see that's not the case though.

And for those that smuggly drive around on "winter" tyres assuming you are in any way safe from black ice, you may be alarmed to know that for all rubber tread, ie not metal studded, there is almost no difference in any general use tyres. That limit is also comically slow at around 15kmh. If you drive with any normal dry pace and an approach that doesn't acknowledge the true hazard in front of you, physics is not going to save you.

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For a one week holiday in France summers and chains are fine. For more than that get winter tyres. Sorry if thats to straight forward.

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@billb, Sorry missed the bit about Flaine. As@boredsurfin, says for one week summer tyres and chains should be fine.
The winter tyres are on my wife's car who regularly needs to drive snowy places in the NW such as Oldham 24/7. In fact they were needed this last weekend, nothing smug about that @ski3, just common sense.

The thing is, some have stated on this thread that winters may cost upwards of £ 400..., if this is the case then they are running vehicles in the upper brackets, and therefore should be able to afford the correct tyres to go with their fat alloys and expensive ski holidays. My 350hp Impreza hatch's winter tyres cost under £400, Nokian wr a3, 245 18 40, and will last for 5 seasons if my last ones are anything to go by, and I earn under the national average.
It must be terrible running a car that needs £ 600/1000 of tyres, poor dears, I feel for you...not. Really? Just get smaller steel wheels, like anyone who lives in the mountains.

You know it makes sense.

@Rareperk, I've no problems with what you've said for that environment at all, eminently sensible for the terrain you've described. None either with your described use in this country, they are both a sensible illustration without any overriding alarm as to understanding the conditions you face.

What I'm amused by is the portrayal of some types of tyre (not your own observations) as so vastly capable that they can even offer safety when confronted with black ice, which I'd like to see the proponents demonstrate.

I think any reasonable discussion without the sensationalist overtones can only serve to help others looking at these threads.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Cheapest rims + winters ~£140 a corner:
https://cars.tyreleader.co.uk/tyre-pack/28751/alloy-222643/?mm%5B%5D=&si=153&c=0&v=0&season%5B%5D=W&sa=&t=&mount=0&sort=prix&p=1&

Bump up to £182 for Nokian WR SUV3.

A snowHead

In the uk you can get away with winter tyres just on the front assuming fwd. That's because when it snows everyone drives at 10mph so no concerns about losing the back end. Just be aware that the handbrake might not work on steep snowy slopes.

If driving on the continent however you will need them on each corner as noone slows down !

A snowHead

Had a rip in one of the winters on our Skoda superb last week before leaving, and got a Michelin replacement at ATS for £ 62.... Peanuts compared with Tarentiese lift pass costs.

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Putting winter compound tyres on just one axle only is really bad advice for the average driver, because there will be very little warning, at speed in an icy situation, before the summer pair break away. This can easily happen when there is no snow, even in wet conditions when pressing on

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Who drives at speed in the UK in snow or icy conditions?

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@ski3, sorry but you have to be tired of living to drive in the Alps in winter on summer tyres. The difference in performance below 7C is dramatic even without snow, and in slightly snowy conditions chains are useless and summer tyres less than useless.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@mooney058, you certainly known alot!

@Steilhang, you're making the assumption that I'm driving around as you describe, that may or may not be true.

This thread started with the question of if you needed to carry chains for those roads marked as requiring such is France, to which I answered yes.

By offering such emphatic absolute answers you effectively don't contribute to any further ongoing discussion. Reasoned opinion can be seen for what it is, an open discussion of various elements relating to a serious subject.

After all it is free

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Perhaps it's better to look at it the other way 'round?: In my case, it was the annual drive down to the Alps which swung things in favour of getting a set of winter tyres. They're still very useful in the wet and cold of a British winter, as they tend to be more resistant to aquaplaning anyway, and you're all sorted for the annual ski trip as well. You don't wear your summers out while the winters are on, so the overall cost is mainly in the charge to swap.

I appreciate that it's easy for me to recommend fitting winter tyres because the reader pays the cost: but there there are no downsides outside of cost. But I'd never recommend to someone that they will always be OK on summer tyres in an Alpine winter trip because the downside is somewhere between considerable inconvenience and death. Of course, a really bad outcome is highly unlikely, and what we experienced two years ago is more probable: driving 'round Lake Geneva it was very slushy, especially between the lanes. When cars moved lanes some were skidding, and these conditions were persisting all the way 'round Geneva to Bourg en Bresse. Cars with winter tyres on coped OK but these are exactly the conditions where summers would be lethal and chains/snowsocks impractical, and where winter tyres come into their own.

Oh, and do not ever mix winter and summer tyres. It's a lethal combination. Any tyre manufacturer (I used to work for Pirelli) will tell you that, as will any dealer. Have an accident with this combination on and and you are very likely to have your insurer repudiate their liability completely.

snow reports

We bought Goodyear winter tyres for our Christmas ski trip and it was worth making the purchase for this trip alone. Encountered black ice on the motorway on the drive back through northern France. Drove past a large pile up on both carriageways probably caused by the icy conditions. We stopped at a service station just afterwards and the road surface was so slippery we were struggling to stand up in normal shoes. Since getting back we've had a few cm of snow and many cold mornings so it has been nice having the tyres for local driving too.

Some of the online sites have very reasonable prices. We used blackcircles and the tyres were delivered to a local garage for the fitting.

Traction Control: Oh, and remember that on a lot of cars you have to disengage your normal stability control and/or engage traction control when you are on snow or chains. Best time to research this is before you go and try it out so you know what buttons to press or menus to select. Most Owner's manuals will give the details, or ask your garage. In my BMW I have to disable DSC and enable DTC by pressing the car-with-wavy-lines button (this is not the same as the 'comfort' vs 'sport' settings and the manual is quite confusing in it's use of acronyms). On a previous A3 there was a similar button to push. Worth checking for your car ..... (this is also worth checking when you collect a hire car for skiing, with the added problem of the manual not being in English, of course).

You know it makes sense.

@LaForet, I was recently told that you should only disable it to get moving and then turn back on again. Does anyone know if this is correct?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Whatever your vehicle's Owner's Manual or dealer says ... here's the extract from mine:

'When driving with snow chains, activate Dynamic Traction Control briefly if necessary' and '..it is best to activate DTC for a short time: When driving in slush or on uncleared, snow-covered roads / If the vehicle has to be rocked out of, or stared in deep snow or on a loose surface. / Driving with snow chains.'

It also gives a short summary of what disabling the usual Dynamic Stability Control means in terms of degraded cornering performance i.e. enabling DTC focuses the car on getting the best forwards grip but removes the usual priority given to preventing oversteer on cornering. The manual stresses that you must alter your driving to acknowledge that the electronics aren't helping you any more re cornering controls. My car has 328BHP to the rear axle so in normal circumstances, the DSC is intervening to stop an oversteer spin if I get it wrong - but with DTC on that's not there. Although I'd be mad to be driving energetically on snow or with chains.

I interpret 'for a short time' to mean while the conditions persist that made me engage traction control in the first place. And that once these conditions are removed, you go back to 'normal' stability control.

A snowHead

@LaForet, Yep that's my way of interpreting it, I just drive with it on tbph no issues, just drive slowly as you would expect in those conditions and you are fine.

A snowHead

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If you're finding your tyres "unusable" in the UK it may be a training issue. Here's what the Association of British Insurers say about winter tyres (my italics):

"Many motorists fit their vehicles with winter tyres to make driving easier in extreme weather conditions.
Most motor insurers do not charge additional premiums for vehicles fitted with winter tyres,
provided that the tyres are roadworthy and have been fitted in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions."
The reason they don't give you a discount is that ordinary tyres are manifestly usable in the UK, which is why we don't have winter wheels laws. Next time a sales guy tries to sell you a tracking device, ask your insurer for a discount... that's the quick way to tell if any of these things actually affect your risk.
--
I find stability/ traction control makes winter driving much safer. It lets you steer in all conditions; you can hammer the brakes in an emergency; you get an early indication from the yellow light of traction issues.

I'm sure reading the manual is a good idea, but I never turn this off.

If you're driving on black ice I'd say that not much short of studs or grit would help.

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Winter tyres are significantly more resistant to aquaplaning in the wet. This feature is attractive in any British winter, irrespective of ambient temperature. But it's probably not enough on its own to swing most owners. Last year's average UK winter daytime temperature was 5.5°C and winter tyres begin to be better than summers under 7°C, so again, on its own, this may not be enough to persuade someone to switch (although if you commute by car in the Rush Hour, then you do hit 80 or so days a year when the temperate is significantly less than the average). However, if you take all these benefits as a UK car driver and add that you are going to drive in Alpine conditions where winter tyres are really useful, then I'd argue that it greatly increases the case for having them, as I recommended to the OP.

Chain manufacturers only make chains and so they don't make much reference to winter tyres - why would they? If you're looking at their website or their product from a retailer you're already close to buying. Web or publicity material isn't going to ask you 'Have you considered winter tyres?' - "I'm going to the Alps and need chains ..." begs the response "Yes sir/madam, of course. And we have plenty to choose from." not "Well, although we only sell snow chains you really should consider the case for winter tyres first, before you spend any money with us."

And re insurers. I don't think you can infer anything. I've worked for a motor insurer and discussed this. Currently UK customers buy winters of their own volition at their own cost, so why give a discount? And why break ranks for what's only a small part of the market? Calculating premiums is a complex and very esoteric actuarial discipline, dominated by post-doctorate statisticians and actuaries. It is very hard to calculate what discount to give as it's hard to know how much the claims levels would reduce. And fraud is a massive problem - people could simply claim they have winter tyres on when they haven't. So I can see why they don't bother. This does not mean that winters aren't worth it for a UK car owner.

Re stability and traction control. Apologies - I don't want to get people confused - My car has two completely different modes that you have to choose between i.e. either stability (the default) or traction (has to be selected). The two are mutually-exclusive. Using the stability default in snow or with chains has the system working against you, so the recommendation is to switch it to traction. But go back to the default as soon as you're on tarmac again. Again, see what your Owner's Manual says about snow and chains. In some cars, there is no such choice and there's 'just' a traction system (this isn't meant as a criticism) and in some there's a specific 'snow' setting for the kinematics (love that word ...).

So if you're reading this as someone driving their car to the Alps even once a year, I think that the scales tip strongly in favour of having a winter set. While your winters are on, your summers aren't, so the 'cost' is primarily that of switching-over (say £100/year, if that) and possibly storage. The capital cost of the tyres is a Red Herring if, as you should, you amortise the cost of both winter and summer tyres across their combined lifetime. For those who change their car within 3-4 years, this could mean that they don't have to get a new summer set before they change cars. (I appreciate that if it's not new, or you do a high mileage, then this may be less compelling financially, if you still have to replace the summers before you change cars).

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But, @philwig**, summer tyres do decrease in effectiveness, let's say below 7C. Chains are only really useful in quite thick (? >5mm?) snow, by which point summer tyres are probably only useful as a home made skid pan.

Stability and traction control in snow above whatever depth is the limit tend to result in an immobilised car as the car is just not smart enough to arrive at a solution within its safety constraints. Or has exited the highway sideways and upside down*

(*probably not so very probable but eminently possible)

** apologies if misunderstood, thread tl:dr completely

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

If you read the thread you'll find no one suggesting otherwise.

It's minus one out there in the UK right now, and yet there are no cars sideways or upside down.

<laughs>You're crazy people

After all it is free

Three weeks ago I was in front of a Boxster coming off the A27 roundabout at Lewes and he spun 3 times on the exit to the DC - fortunately no one hurt. Temp was 4.5C and tarmac wet. I was going slightly faster than him but rock solid on my winters. Yesterday saw a car in the field by A27 eastbound by Hove - he'd spun and gone through the fencing: fortunately had the space to stop. Temp was around 4C and wet tarmac again. So there are plenty of accidents out there. I think it's reasonable to look at it scientifically and make a fact-based judgement. I don't see any link at all between your or my level of accident observations and whether I should get winter tyres or not.

I drove my Boxster approx 5 yards in the snow in the 3 years I had it. Up to top of drive and back onto it. Hopeless. XC90 on summer tyres also hopeless. Jeep Grand cherokee on winters, awesome, drove up to Val D in a foot of fresh no bother. Current 1.6 Golf of mrs endo on winters is great in Peak District, we run winters all the time. Off to Val on fri in RWD merc, but just put new winters on the back , again have run winters all the time for 12 months, with no problem. I have some summers tucked away in the garage for both cars, but never felt the need to swap back. Winters have lasted fine.

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@LaForet, the Boxster driver was presumably being enthusiastic with the loud pedal. Powerful engine, lots of torque at the wheels, lost the back. You need to know how to drive it.

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Snow chains or winter tyres

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