 Poster: A snowHead
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Possibly a very stupid question, but I've just got back from a week in Austria skiing in -15c temps... My previously comfortable Lange SX100 boots, suddenly ended up causing numb toes after a few runs (not cold, just numb - so I'm assuming circulation issues)... I'm wondering if the reduced temp could have caused the shell of the boot to become less flexible, and in turn hindered circulation? Previous to this the lowest temperature I've skied in has probably been around the -4c mark.
They have sidas custom insoles and were fitted in 2015 by the late edge & wax team... Mondo 27.5 and I'm a UK8.5 shoe, so on the comfort rather than performance side of things fit-wise. Thought's would be greatly appreciated before I head off to find a boot fitter to take a look at them!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Cold does make boots stiffer, but does that mean circulation should be restricted? When temperatures get very low my feet get cold, but I don't think that's because my boots are a bit stiffer it's just because the temperatures are very low.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear a thicker hat or warmer gloves.
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@Wick, Most if not all plastics are temperature sensitive to a greater or lesser degree. This means that a very cold boot will be stiffer than a warm boot. You must have notice the difference in flex between walking to a restaurant lunch stop with cold boots and walking out again warm boots.
You will probably find that it is a combination of the cold making your toes cold, and the reduced flexibility/movement, causing your numbness.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks for the feedback all.
Indeed I have noticed flex differences in the past dependent on country/boot warmers/restaurants etc... but did wonder if these extremes (by my standard) in temp fluctuation could have been the cause of numbness due to the changing properties of the boots, rather than the cold itself. This was the first trip I've had the urge to take my boots off at lunch just to get some feeling back, where as spring skiing I leave them buckled all day.
It was a somewhat unusual sensation of warm but numb feet which made me think it was a boot issue rather than a weather issue.
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@Wick, it's not a stupid question at all...indeed temp has a big impact on characteristics of the plastics used in ski boots. Easter skiing causes my 80 flex park boots to be humorously flexible - just useable in the winter, they are absolutely unusable at Easter. 110 flex boots get softer but still function sensibly. An old Italian boot (orange plastic - I will not name the company since they sorted the problem quickly) was noted for splitting (!) at very low temps - a problem with the pigment mix, I understand. Some climbing boots use Pebax, which has some good properties in low temps - but v expensive.
But let's get straight to a problem. And it's intrinsic to ski boots. In climbing, if you are in deep low temps, you add volume to the boot - read this good blog if you are interested:
http://coldthistle.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/double-boots.html
I scale up my sizings for my winter climbing boots. The additional external volume gets a bit of getting used to, but the mind quickly adapts. Remember that winter climbing usually consists of huge heavy boots, heavy crampons, rustling gaiters and generally banging your feet around on rock until you get a spike on something with a bit of purchase.
But with ski boots, upping the volume has a very undesirable effect in terms of the control which you expect from a ski boot. You want to retain the fit. The poster who said 'put another hat on' is onto something. Increase the temp of your core, and the body will send more blood to your extremities. Cold feet? Put on another layer of Merino, and thicker tights/longs. But cold can suddenly bring out fit problems in boots. Pressure across the bridge of your foot can restrict the artery supplying blood to the whole foot, and a tight toe box can be a real problem.
Now, I have damage to my right foot caused by wearing boots with an overnight toe box. I was much younger, less conscious of potential problems, and a bit cavalier. I had some Rossignols that I loved for their control, and lived with the fact that the carbon re-inforcement meant that the toe box could not be eased. And I have paid for it. Over a bitter feb, I skied with numb toes every day, thinking it was only the same as wearing highly constricting climbing slippers. It wasn't. The blood was cut off to my right foot for long enough for tissue damage to be caused and to change the vascular structure.
Warm numb feet is a Very Bad Idea. Colin (Sol4Feet) emphasised to me recently that Lange do tend to have tight toe boxes. Remember that it's heel retention and lateral control which is essential in a ski boot and that does not mean overall constriction. Sorry, but I would take your feet along to a really good boot fitter to get an evaluation.
I should have put the Rossignols in the bin the moment I felt numbness, knowing that I could not relieve the toe box. I didn't and picked up an injury which has stayed with me.
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@Valais2 - Some really useful information and some really sound advice. Thank you.
Interestingly, I have always been inclined to say my boots are towards the "big" end of the spectrum. That's not to say the boot fitting was poor by any means, but I was naive when I bought them and I know far more now (mainly gleaned from here) than when I originally stumped up for them two years ago. The volume inside the boots does as you say, grip well on the heel and I feel like in warm conditions I have a decent amount of toe flexion inside the boot. Very peculiar I experienced such a difference last week.
I think you're right, probably worth getting them looked at before I'm back out on the slopes in March. Can't put a price on comfort and slope time.
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@Wick, Hi, your boots , on the sizes given by yourself:
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Mondo 27.5 and I'm a UK8.5 shoe
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maybe too big as perhaps you now suspect.
As a comparative example only, my specs are: running shoes UK 10, normal shoes 9.5 and ski boots mondo 27.5 which are not tight at all and i think the best fitting ski boots i've ever owned - Salomon Xmax 100.
Was a thorough shell check done when you bought the boots ? There's a lot to getting a great fitting ski boot!
Snowheads and Youtube are useful resources. I could list them out here but it might bore the pants off you. However, ask whatever you want - it wouldn't take long to list what i think are the essentials...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| valais2 wrote: |
Now, I have damage to my right foot caused by wearing boots with an overnight toe box. I was much younger, less conscious of potential problems, and a bit cavalier. I had some Rossignols that I loved for their control, and lived with the fact that the carbon re-inforcement meant that the toe box could not be eased. And I have paid for it. Over a bitter feb, I skied with numb toes every day, thinking it was only the same as wearing highly constricting climbing slippers. It wasn't. The blood was cut off to my right foot for long enough for tissue damage to be caused and to change the vascular structure.
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Can endorse this - I skied a season in a pair of boots that were on the stiff side but generally fine in reasonable temps (subject to a trapping nerve issue that did cause numbness in one toe). Got a particularly cold day the following year in Switzerland and my normal toe numbness was neglected as a sign of frostbite. Tissue largely recovered but feels a bit weird.
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@Wick, the boots are unquestionably too big. To get your 'good fit' you are probably doing the buckles up too tight because they're too big. This restricts circulation. In warm temperatures, you won't notice. In cold temperatures, you will. Eventually, your nerves will die and then you'll notice at all temperatures that your feet will be numb, full stop.
I am a 8.5 UK shoe size currently skiing comfortably in a Salomon 25.5 after years of similar issues skiing in various brands' 26.5 boots. God help you in a 27.5.
Chuck 'em.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm a 9.5 shoe size and have mondo 27.5 boot, which I think are a touch too big. Skiing this week in -20C sent my toes numb. But when I barely tightened my boots, my feet were ok. Overall, I suspect its the boot fitting applying pressure on my instep (exasperated by new footbeds that give better arch support) which is reducing blood flow. At some point I will see a boot fitter...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
@Wick, Eventually, your nerves will die and then you'll notice at all temperatures that your feet will be numb, full stop.
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No they won't unless you have serious trauma or a neurodegenerative disease.
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
| Raceplate wrote: |
| @Wick, Eventually, your nerves will die and then you'll notice at all temperatures that your feet will be numb, full stop. |
No they won't unless you have serious trauma or a neurodegenerative disease. |
Really? Are you qualified to give this opinion? Because I'm talking from personal experience and many consultations. What's your experience?
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You know it makes sense.
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@Themasterpiece, I'm thinking we have quite similar feet. To be boring, the mondo point is a linear scale based on cm's. So, my right foot is 27.7/27.8 and my left is 27.5 exact. Shell fitting, bare foot in shell, toe just touching boot end, leaning slightly forward, heel clearance is around 1and1/2 finger thickess or approx 15mm (performance fit). Always the right toe box needs a slight grind / blow for that 2~3mm bigger toe. Boots assembled, thin socks, standing up straight, my toes just touch boot end, flexing forward, toes come away not touching and can wiggle a bit with un-cramped clearance up/down and side to side.
Anyway, to really the point, i believe i had the same/similar issue which was because of the internal volume over the instep and nothing to do with the length or width. Fundamentally i was squishing my foot ( which has a medium arch with medium/narrow ankle ) into a LOW VOLUME boot, and just like you the new footbeds slightly raised my arch cutting off circulation after 20~25 mins causing numbness. For me, they reheated the boots and stood me in them with additional packing foam over the arch which solved the problem. Whoops, forgot i also sanding down the foot baseboard to for extra internal height - about 1 to 1.5 mm done before the final heating fitting. Only skied in fridges with them without any issues, real mountain will be colder making boot stiffer no doubt. I don't buckle down these boots at all.
In the UK, it seems to me the very real aspect of foot volume isn't scientifically measured but only eyeball judged, with selected boots offered as potential good boots to try on. Only once have i had a bootfitter visually trying to assess instep clearance over forefoot.  well, it isn't a bad idea if there's time - try on ALL the likely model from more than one shop if need be. Then i bought a great fitting boot only to quickly find out the flex of 130, even 120 ( bolt out) was just too stiff - so i bought the same model boot but in 100 flex and found perfection - it took ages but was worth it...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Tim Heeney, Last week my boot fitter ground 1.5mm off from the right baseboard of my new off piste boots to account for a slightly larger ankle relating to a 7 year old motorbiking injury. This allieviated the slight numbness I was getting in that foot.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Scarpa,  Nice bit of (and can only be) fine tuning IMO...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Tim Heeney, new Salomon sizing is very weird actually.
I have been 26 Salomon for 20 years - X Wave was a good period, great volume for my foot, easy plastics, great performance. Then the new sizing is WAY different - 26 now HUUUGE for my feet - giant sole length internally for same external sole length, deep heel pocket, makes for a totally different fit. But 25 for me now totally wrong shape.
This all seems retrograde to me. Things should be getting more standardised and supportive of the knowledgeable consumer, not less.
I can't agree that the Lange 27's are 'Definitely too big'. I am UK 8 (not 8.5) and the 26 is a good performance fit in the RX100. Let's just think:
My size 8's....(42)....actual 26 cm longest measurement:
Old Salomon X waves 26 - perfect fit
Old Salomon Falcon 26 - tight and needed easing - now nice performance fit
New Salomon 26 X pro - hopelessly big
Technica 26 fire diablo 2010 - perfect fit
Lange rx100 26 - tight, need relief in toe box for toe knuckle - tight performance fit
New Atomic Hawk 110 26 - perfect fit until liners packed - now too big
Nordica Cruise 110 26 - big comfy boats. Weirdly buckle down tight without pressure points. totally wrong boot for my shape but useful for days mucking about with debuntants.
So, OP has a bigger foot than me.I don't think it's clear at all that the 27 Langes are wrong, or too big. All depends on foot volume and shape. And other factors. I have climbed for years. My feet now collapse into a weird ball when they go near a tight shoe - all the ligaments and joints are shot from being squeezed into silly-tight climbing slippers. That wreaks havoc with getting the right ski boots.
And I get totally different advice from different fitters, who often criticise each other's positions. The top fitters (CEM etc) are a race apart, and are an important way of heading towards the right thing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| valais2 wrote: |
@Tim Heeney, new Salomon sizing is very weird actually.
I have been 26 Salomon for 20 years - X Wave was a good period, great volume for my foot, easy plastics, great performance. Then the new sizing is WAY different - 26 now HUUUGE for my feet - giant sole length internally for same external sole length, deep heel pocket, makes for a totally different fit. But 25 for me now totally wrong shape.
This all seems retrograde to me. Things should be getting more standardised and supportive of the knowledgeable consumer, not less.
I can't agree that the Lange 27's are 'Definitely too big'. I am UK 8 (not 8.5) and the 26 is a good performance fit in the RX100. Let's just think:
My size 8's....(42)....actual 26 cm longest measurement:
Old Salomon X waves 26 - perfect fit
Old Salomon Falcon 26 - tight and needed easing - now nice performance fit
New Salomon 26 X pro - hopelessly big
Technica 26 fire diablo 2010 - perfect fit
Lange rx100 26 - tight, need relief in toe box for toe knuckle - tight performance fit
New Atomic Hawk 110 26 - perfect fit until liners packed - now too big
Nordica Cruise 110 26 - big comfy boats. Weirdly buckle down tight without pressure points. totally wrong boot for my shape but useful for days mucking about with debuntants.
So, OP has a bigger foot than me.I don't think it's clear at all that the 27 Langes are wrong, or too big. All depends on foot volume and shape. And other factors. I have climbed for years. My feet now collapse into a weird ball when they go near a tight shoe - all the ligaments and joints are shot from being squeezed into silly-tight climbing slippers. That wreaks havoc with getting the right ski boots.
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when i worked at Lockwoods (a long time ago) in the hiking department one summer we templated a load of feet, the criteria was simple, when asked your shoe size anyone who answered UK8 had their foot drawn round...... we collected around 30 of these "size 8" feet.... the difference was astounding over 25mm from the shortest "8" to the longest "8" uk shoe sizes are a weird thing, it is an arbitrary number based on the span of the hand and 3 barley corns hence why the ski industry used mondopoint... CM we know what a centimeter is right? BUT and the big but is the manufacturers all leave just a little bit more or a little bit less space for your toes, so shell check is critical and liners are something which needs to e considered as some are thick and cushy and soft, others are very firm and don't pack out so much, peoples tolerance to compression (fit tension) varies form person to person, so whilst we would love to get everyone into a perfect 15mm shell check most people find 18mm is good, some want 10mm and others want 25mm
some times when you measure the internal space in a shell it is identical to another model which may feel longer or shorter depending on the liner, toe box shape and overall volume of the boot play a massive role in how a boot feels in terms of big or small and much of this is liner dependent but the facts still remain, a good shell check is the fist part of the fitting process, along with a well made stable insole to reduce any excessive motion of the foot inside the boot
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ and that answer is why the usual response is to go see a 'good' bootfitter and the same reason why one or two always get mentioned.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@valais2, Hi.
What i said to Wick was...
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maybe too big as perhaps you now suspect.
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I believe that's fair to say as he implied that himself, my details i quoted as
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As a comparative example only
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i.e, not a defacto standard to judge all other feet.
It wasn't i that said anything about 'definitely' or similar 'too big'.
What is curious is why previously comfy boots have suddenly caused numb toes now for him. Curious but without all the facts, difficult to say...
@ansta1, true for a difficult to diagnose problem. A 'fair' bootfitter should be good enough to solve 'irritations / niggles' etc. CEM's time is too valuable for minor problems in my opinion and it's almost a day trip to see him to from where i'm based although, if you need an expert, -THIS should not put anyone off!
@CEM, be in no doubt Colin, if i knew of anyone with any sort of a seemingly tricky 'problem', or that needed an urgent, no compromise solution, or just wanted the 'best bootfitter' that i knew, only your name would leave my mouth...having said that, i'm not sure how many of these types of clients you'd be thrilled at seeing in any one day! ps. we all want easy money in reality...( well, that's my take on the world as a whole !) and, Colin deserves as much of that as anyone else and probably more so in the boot fitting world... 
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 10-01-17 17:17; edited 2 times in total
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@Tim Heeney, ...indeed your responses very measured - but another's post said 'definitely too big' and I was bothered it is a bit more complex ...
I've been reflecting on 'warm but numb' and will post on that a bit later...
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@Wick, hmmm warm but numb.
This is where remote opinions from strangers is like trying to give someone advice on how to get to your house when they ring to say 'I'm lost...' and you say 'where do you think you are...' and they say 'I don't know I'm lost'.
But here goes.
You could have a weird response to cold. Reynaulds is one obvious weird response usually affecting hands though.
There could be an underlying pathology - but I don't mention this to instil paranoia - but it's not impossible. Peripheral neuropathy can have a host of causes. Monitor the conditions under which it happens.
Could be an old injury which compromised the blood flow - could rule this out if the problem affected both feet, probably.
Could be pressure on nerves in the foot and thus something a bootfitter with good physiological understanding could resolve.
If the boot is too loose then your foot will be doing all sorts of weird clenching in the boot and this give induce all sorts of issues. Again, sortable.
But numbness usually means inappropriate constriction of blood flow - or pressure on key nerves - or an underlying pathology or previous injury.
Upshot - get advice from a really good bootfitter.
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