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Avalanche - an inside view... Long post

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
It's very easy to be wise after the event. There are lots of things in BOD's story that ring alarm bells but we weren't there and do not know the why's and wherefores of it all.

However, this story shouldn't put people off skiing off piste. The odds on getting caught are low and there are ways of reducing the risks to a minimum. The risk is acceptable and I would suspect no higher than many other risks we take in life.

So, how dio you reduce the risks.
1. Ski with a guide who has a recognised guiding qualification. Don't be afraid to ask what their qualidications are. There are a few exceptions to this rule but I can only think of 2! In Val D'Isere there are 2 specialist off piste ski schools (Top Ski and Alpine Experience). Some of their staff are mountain guides, some are "only" instructors. However, their knowledge of the area, their long experience and hard won reputations are their "qualifiaction". It is a shame there aren't more "schools" like them, in every resort.

2. Carry the right equipment and most important of all, know how to use it.

3. Learn as much as you can. Read books and ask questions. Never stop learning.

4. Don't be afraid to ask your guide why he thinks something is safe. OK, don't question his judgement as such but I often ask why a particular slope is safe when I think it might not be.

5. Don't be a lemming! If you believe that when traversing a slope there should be a 100 metre gap between skiers and iothers aren't doing it or your guide hasn't said anything, still leave that safety gap.

Overall, take some responsibility for your own safety even if that is only caarefully choosing who you ski with (but it should be a lot more!)
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
BOD,

Thanks for your answers. It's difficult to point out things that might help other people without coming across as harsh on the guide or wise after the event. Maybe it's better another thread is started about off-piste safety.

Sometimes it's difficult for a guide / instructor to watch his students without being in the direct path of any potential avalanche (i.e. if he had stayed out of the way he may not of been able to help his students with feedback on their technique afterwards because he couldn't see them properly). I suspect he moved forward to see them and you thought well if he is standing there it's OK for me to stand close to him. Understand what he says, try to understand why he has said it and do what he says rather than what he does. Yes I too have made mistakes while being out with a guide and got a servere bo#####ing for doing so, but I'm learning.

Sometimes there is a danger that we act like ducklings where we should think a little more for our own safety. We should never 100% depend on the guide as it could be that he gets taken away. Knowing where you are, where is North & South, how to call the emergency services, what to report and how to conduct a search are things that can only help you if there is a problem.

As I said before Powder skiing is probably less dangerous than driving your car, but a lot more fun snowHead .


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 31-01-06 9:12; edited 1 time in total
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One big diiference your find with off-piste skiing in Europe & back country skiing in North Ameica.

In North America you can buy exploisve charges.

One guided trip I did Idaho a few years asgo, every virgin slope we skied, an explosive charge with 30 sec fuse was lobbed into the slope to test it for stability.

DB, Plainly the guy they dug out in the spring (May) did not have a working transmitter or it was totaaly ripped off in the slide. Incidently these guys were skiing with a local Austrian Instructor/Guide.
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stanton wrote:
DB, Plainly the guy they dug out in the spring (May) did not have a working transmitter or it was totaaly ripped off in the slide. Incidently these guys were skiing with a local Austrian Instructor/Guide.


Yes I know it was an Austrian Instructor.

If I remember correctly it was a Canadian group that were hit by an avalanche set off by an American boarder.

There was some discussion as to wether they were properly equipped or not ....
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=89224&highlight=avalanche#89224


I know you are fully aware of this but what I'm trying to point out to people is that if anyone wants to take you off piste (even if he/she has a ski instructors uniform on) if you and they are not equipped with the correct safety equipment (Transceiver, Shovel & Probe) it should ring alarm bells.
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BOD, a great description of first-hand experience of an avalanche survival.
I would like to know if steep off piste mogul fields are likely to avalanche as I often look back on my favourite run and think... if that lot let go there would be no chance!
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aseeto,

Not having a go at anyone here at all. This sounds a hell of an experience and the fact that BOD wrote about it can teach us all that these things happen... a lot. It may bring a bit more awarenes to us all as well, which will not be a bad thing.

I wasn't there so I don't know what I would have done. Generally, I would be interested in gullies as we get to ski them a bit
and what makes them fun can also make them dangerous. Things like if I fall where do I go is probably the same line as if the snow slides where does it go?
Locals do build up a mental database of what slopes are risky in certain conditions and you need this but people do get caught out.

Maybe it was a mistake, maybe it wasn't..like I say I wasn't there.

BOD,
After such a frightening experience, look on the bright side, everyones ok and the things that it taught you might take ages to accrue. Thanks for the account
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DB, it's only my gut feeling (having read about avalanches and connected life-saving for about 40 years) that none of the equipment you mention is as effective (or cheap) as an avalanche cord.

"Hundreds of lives" were saved by rescuers finding and tracing from avalanche cords in the decades before transceivers were invented. That quote from Colin Fraser, author of 'The Avalanche Enigma', published in the mid-1960s.
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David Goldsmith,

Never used a cord but the Avalanche ball always seemed like a good idea but I have never really understood why it hasn't caught on.

http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Gear/Avalanche-Ball


A few more links with Avalanche info ....

http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Learning-Lessons-From-Avalanche-Accidents

http://www.secretsofsurvival.com/survival/avalanche_survival.html

http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/caribou-targhee/avalanche_tips.pdf

http://www.csac.org/store/products-books.html
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To say that powder skiing is less dangerous than driving a car is absurd and thoughtless.
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DB,

Quote:

I know you are fully aware of this but what I'm trying to point out to people is that if anyone wants to take you off piste (even if he/she has a ski instructors uniform on) if you and they are not equipped with the correct safety equipment (Transceiver, Shovel & Probe) it should ring alarm bells.



Indeed however, someitmes I think folk think these items are fashion accessories Sad
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xyzpaul,
Quote:

To say that powder skiing is less dangerous than driving a car is absurd and thoughtless.


Why ?
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xyzpaul wrote:
To say that powder skiing is less dangerous than driving a car is absurd and thoughtless.


Wish I could find the thread but somebody somewhere (I think it was Snowheads) posted some stats that indicated this. If you have any info that says otherwise then please post it here.

People tend to concentrate on the unlucky few avalanche victims without taking into account how many people actually ski off-piste.
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xyzpaul wrote:
To say that powder skiing is less dangerous than driving a car is absurd and thoughtless.
Why? Look at the figures. In the UK there were about 3500 deaths last year. With about 20m people with drivers licences, this means that 0.0175% of drivers are involved in a year.

Now take France where there were 24 fatalities in France last year. For the same % as car fatalities, that would need 137,5000 people to ski off piste in France in a year. I would say that is totally believable.

OK, this is crude because it doesn't take the number of journies or the number of days spent off piste. And please do not let us get into a deep mathamatical discussion. All this is meant to show is that the comment "powder skiing is less dangerous than driving a car" is neither "absurd" or "thoughtless".
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a very quick google search produces this statistical comparison with other sports - the data is US and is 1999 - but it demonstrates that skiing is a lot safer than we think - look at the stats for swimming!

stats for comparative sports

Can anyone dig out more up to date figures? - I suspect however you will find that the figures are constant.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 31-01-06 13:56; edited 1 time in total
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SimonN wrote:
And please do not let us get into a deep mathamatical discussion.
Spoilsport Sad wink Little Angel snowHead
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 Poster: A snowHead
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hibernia, that link actually allows a bit of an answer to the question of skiers vs autos (although not about powder/off-piste skiing vs autos). It says 41,200 Americans dies in automobile accidents, but mentions 5900 pedestrians as a separate item - so I assume that the 41200 is for those travelling in an automobile. So lets assume there are about 250million Americans, and half of them get in a car every day (may be an underestimate) that gives 45625 million automobile "participant days", and a death rate of 0.90/million "participation days". So skiing is safer than being in a car! Also it probably gets better per hour, as I suspect a skier day involves more participation hours than just a trip to the office/shops and back.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The instructor concerned is v. experienced and has spent a lot of time guiding off piste. In my experience, the company is also appropriately safety conscious.

My point? I can't say whether he made good choices that day, but I think the vast majority of people would have considered him qualified to lead them off-piste.

Here's the hierarchy as I see it:

1. People who ski off-piste alone.
2. People who ski off-piste in unequipped unled groups.
3. People who ski off-piste in equipped unled groups.
4. People who ski off-piste when led by someone who is thought to know what they're doing, but does not have any formal qualification (a SCGB rep or a friend).
5. People who ski off-piste when led by a qualified instructor.
6. People who ski off-piste when led by a qualified instructor, who they believe to be particularly experienced.
7. People who ski off-piste when led by a qualified guide.
8. People who ski off-piste when led by a qualified guide, who is particularly experienced, lives in the resort etc.

I think most of us agree that 1 and 2 are unacceptable, and 3 depends on the experience in the group. 4, 5 and 6 are tough calls (and 4 a matter for the SCGB's lawyers!)...

(and BTW could we start a new thread to argue about skiing/driving?)
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Most accidents happen in the home, another good safety reason for going skiing and getting down the pub.
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I think that number 1 is acceptable. After all, the only person that you're going to kill is yourself.
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Not necessarily true - as you could trigger a v long and potentially hazardous rescue operation.
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Kramer wrote:
I think that number 1 is acceptable. After all, the only person that you're going to kill is yourself.


As long as you don't trigger an avalanche on top of someone else, or a second avalanche is triggered while the rescue services are trying to find you. (has happened before)
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DavidS, I am interested in this "heirarchy". I am not sure what this means. I have skied off-piste alone on occasion. I made an assessment of the risk, decided it was acceptable and did so with no mishap. I would argue that I was perfectly entitled to do this and would take issue with anyone who calls this "unacceptable".

Last week, I went into the same area with a reasonably experienced group. Through a combination of the run not being in condition and our assessment of avalanche risk on the alternative, we decided not to proceed, put on our skins and hiked back out. This took 2 hours. If we'd risked the run we would have been out in 20 minutes.

My point is that group dynamics is ONE factor in avalanche accidents. However, a heirarchy like that is meaningless without knowing the conditions where they are skiing and the experience of the people involved.
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I completely stand by my assertion that off-piste skiing is more dangerous than driving. As figures are unlikely to be found, I can only rely on common sense and my own experience, which I believe is typical enough for the sake of a simple comparison.

I have driven a car on average for one hour every day for the last 17 years, and in that time I've been involved in one minor accident in which no-one was injured. That is over 6000 hours.

Does anyone on snowHeads truly believe that they could ski 6000 hours off-piste with just zero or one accidents?
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DB, surely if you're alone or part of a group then you're just as likely or not to set off an avalanche below you, in fact I would argue that you're less likely to do this alone.

Similarly if you're buried in an avalanche as part of a group, the rescuers take just as much risk as if you were buried in one alone.

Skiing alone off-piste is not to be attempted by everyone, but every guide that I've ever skied with does it on occassion. You're putting yourself at an increased risk, but as long as you're sensible that's probably the only person that you are.
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Yeah I guess unacceptable was the wrong word - I was thinking more of the snowboader who set off alone without telling anyone in a direction he hoped would lead to a road and ended up wandering around barefoot for 3 days...
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Re:
Quote:

1. People who ski off-piste alone.


This discussion is pretty much focussed on Off-Piste skiing accessed from resorts which is why you allways here about the Avalanches in the so called "Public domain"

The majority of Off-Piste/back country fanatics do not ski anywhere near resorts do not take lifts . They hike up into the wilderness & descend wherever they want to , we are very experienced & know the risks Very Happy Big groups are very rare, normally only 3-4 max.
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xyzpaul wrote:
I completely stand by my assertion that off-piste skiing is more dangerous than driving. As figures are unlikely to be found,


Try this UK fatalaties in UK 2001

I make it that there were 34,764 fatalities from road traffic accidents in the UK in 2001.

Could someone, Graham?, crunch these figures and come up with a meaningful comparison?
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The figure of 34764 is for deaths and serious injuries. I think the actual figure for deaths would be about 4000
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riverman wrote:
The figure of 34764 is for deaths and serious injuries. I think the actual figure for deaths would be about 4000


yes I thought it looked high rolling eyes
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Something that has not been mentioned is that most avalanche fatalities are caused by windslab (which forms on the lee slopes). Since the prevailing winds in the Alps are mostly from the South and West, windslab is mostly on North and East facing slopes. I read somewhere that 90% of avalanche accidents are on these slopes. (Of course funnelling effects of particular terrain may cause local anomalies).
Southfacing slopes on sunny afternoons can also be a danger, of course.
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Kramer wrote:
DB, surely if you're alone or part of a group then you're just as likely or not to set off an avalanche below you, in fact I would argue that you're less likely to do this alone.


I was responding to your comment that if you ski/board alone then you can only be a risk to yourself. Just making the point that you can always be a risk to others wether in a group or alone as you rightly say. I've heard people say things like "so what if I haven't got a transceiver or don't know the terrain, it's my risk." There are no friends on powder days but you should be aware of what risks you present to others. Marching up behind someone on a traverse and closing the gap or skiing/boarding a slope putting the people below you in danger of any slide you create are prime examples.


Kramer wrote:
DBSimilarly if you're buried in an avalanche as part of a group, the rescuers take just as much risk as if you were buried in one alone.

Skiing alone off-piste is not to be attempted by everyone, but every guide that I've ever skied with does it on occassion. You're putting yourself at an increased risk, but as long as you're sensible that's probably the only person that you are.


The first few minutes after an avalanche are critical. To be honest if you are on your own in an avalanche and get burried the chances of you getting out are much slimmer. There's no one else to report it, no one to say that's where it occured, no one to help dig you out. Searching for a single person who could be anywhere under the snow puts a tremendous risk on the rescue services. Rescuers have been killed looking for people before. When these things happen everybody pulls together but when rescuers are tied up in an intensive search over a large area it means resources are not available for other potential problems.
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This article covers avalanche safety gear quite well, and shows the Black Diamond Bobcat shovel I use. It is a bit of a monster, though. One comment I have had was that another skier would not want to carry it, but would hope that others in the party were! It think something like it would be better for digging out chunky ice debris than some of the lighter shovels I have seen. But it is a bit heavy (and large) for me. What do you guys use?
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hibernia wrote:
riverman wrote:
The figure of 34764 is for deaths and serious injuries. I think the actual figure for deaths would be about 4000


yes I thought it looked high rolling eyes


....... but that compares well with SimonN's previous figure of 3500.


The post where he concluded my comments were not "absurd" or "thoughtless".


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 31-01-06 19:30; edited 1 time in total
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Nick Zotov,

I was advised to go for a metal shovel as the plastic ones don't cut it in icy crusty conditions.
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xyzpaul wrote:
I completely stand by my assertion that off-piste skiing is more dangerous than driving. As figures are unlikely to be found, I can only rely on common sense and my own experience, which I believe is typical enough for the sake of a simple comparison.

I have driven a car on average for one hour every day for the last 17 years, and in that time I've been involved in one minor accident in which no-one was injured. That is over 6000 hours.

Does anyone on snowHeads truly believe that they could ski 6000 hours off-piste with just zero or one accidents?
I have a member of staff who has been driving for 5 years and has written off 4 cars and had countless number of minor accidents! So what does that prove? Your statistics get added to everybody elses and become part of what makes up an average.

The figures don't lie. Every year there will be 3500 deaths due to driving in the UK. Even if we say that everybody in the UK went in a vehicle during the year, that is still a higher % of annual road users killed that annual off piste skiers.

This is a bit like the arguement about accidents per air mile flown against accidents per flight. Taken on the first basis, flying looks a lot less dangerous than when you just look at the number of flights, ignoring distance. The industry always quotes the first, but as most accidents happen on take off or landing, distance is rarely a factor. In the same way, most car accidents happen within a mile of your home, irrespective of distance of journey.

All I know is that based on the law of averages, 25 people will die in avalanches in France this season and 3500 people will die on the UK roads this year. I will take all precautions to ensure the odds make it less likely that one of those will be me.
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Bod,

Thanks for posting this and I'm glad your ok, very sobering.

You mention "In hindsight there were probably a couple of signs that could have prompted questions from me"

What were those signs, and what would you do again if you were in the same situation next time you are off piste?

Just hoping to learn from your experiences if possible.

regards,

Greg
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Skiing off piste. its a risk assessment.

When I lived in Val D'isere I skied with freinds of piste, on more than 1 occation we skined for 3hrs. The experiance of the group was mixed, we could all ski well anough to be on the slop (the old days with thin skis). Mountain craft was good though out the group, a Scot that spent lots of time in the hills in the winter, a BASI instructor (had taken the mountain course) 2 other climbers. We all were working in the resort and planed our trip with care. Being in resort lets you know about what has happened with the snow and weather, advice from friends that took people off piste for a living, and changing plans if conditions change.

I was lucky but how all has changed

I ski 1 or 2 weeks a year, could not tell you if it snowed today and what the wind was doing and if it was hot or cold.
I do not what to take a punt and see if its going to be ok. I will only ski with a high mountain guild or an experanced instructor. I still think off piste skiing is the biggest risk I take, when you do a pitch you never know what might happen its not in your control.

Reducing the risk of being in a avalanche is step 1, step 2 be pripeared of one,
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SimonN, your accident prone friend is an anomaly, that is why you have highlighted him. Regardless, if he had skied off-piste for the same number of hours as he has driven he would have had far more accidents. I am aware of how air-accident figures are presented. But I'm afraid that whether you count the hours spent driving/off-piste-skiing or the number of times which a person has driven/off-piste-skied, the skiing is more dangerous.

You're not comparing apples with apples - it is absurd to compare a few hours off-piste per year with hundreds of hours driving.
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I should say, from my own experience, if you ever ski with seasonal workers in a ski resort, do not assume they know what they are talking about when they tell you what is safe. They may well know less than youy do.
We both ski mostly off piste and mostly with guides (and have done snowcraft courses) but sometimes ski routes without a guide that we feel confident about, playing fairly safe.
I and a friend had planned to ski one day with a friend of my friend (he was partly out there to prepare for his BASI) and another Brit, both at the end of their season working in Meribel. They wanted us to ski a route off piste with them that they had skied before with saisonaire friends but when I discovered it was largely on a glacier (Glacier de Gebroulaz) I at first refused. They and my companion persuaded me to change my mind.
When we had climbed up to the Glacier and started down my friend and I realised that the others were about to do a small jump. At the bottom of it (if one of them had fallen they would have gone into it) was a snow covered cravasse. We watched with amazement.
A couple of minutes later, after they had survived this we followed the side of the valley with with no obvious evidence of cravasses which my 1:25,000 map showed as the normal route, and saw them go along the other side before joining us. We asked if they knew they had just crossed 4 cravasses. They had no idea, nore had they realised there was a cravasse below the jump off the serac.
After a while they wanted to take another route we thought dangerous and we parted company.
I shudder at the memory. I will never do anything like that again.
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xyzpaul,

Maybe you are the anomaly. You have called mine and other peoples statements / opinions "thoughtless" and "absurd" yet the only thing you have come up with is your own good/lucky example of driving.

You are entitled to your own opinion and if you come up with anything solid then please post it, but until you do I'd appreciate you not calling mine and other peoples views "absurd".

How many days off-piste skiing have you done, have you ever been involved in an avalanche? I don't see anybody agreeing with you here but maybe you have knowledge / qualifications that they don't - please provide details.
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