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Skier dies in La Plagne

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

probably icy pistes were a contributing factor.

not taking account of the condition of the piste is still pilot error.
snow conditions     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

Personally i'd like to hear from 'most snowheads' before assuming that. We've all seen collisions, some of us have been hit, some of us have been the hitter, some of us have had family members taken out and some of us have had to chase down hit and runs. All scenarios involve an ignoramus or sheer bad luck to one degree or another but, to repeat, in my experience there's an imbalance in the number of snowboarders involved and worse when you consider the relative number of skiers v boarders. It could just be my experience, although a ski patroller I talked to agreed with the view, but if there's an issue there's no point pretending it isn't an issue.


I ski and board, so I hope I have a balanced view here Happy

I have been hit twice, both times by skiers, both out of control, although both were clearly beginners (hence didn't necessarily have the control at the speed they were travelling, which may not have been through bravado so much as a lack of ability to stop). However I wouldn't say skiers are out of control in general, I've seen plenty of boarders equally out of control, its just more likely an out of control boarder will catch an edge and fall before they hit someone!

Snowboarding, clearly is slightly trickier to see people, but depending of course on your viewpoint, if someone ski's (or boards) into you from your blind-spot there's a good chance (I'm not saying its always the case) they are the ones in the wrong!

That said, you can go on any internet forum and find a similar debate, if you go on a boating forum it will be about sailing vs powerboats wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

That's easy to say - but they may as well say don't fall over! However carefully and in control you are skiing, if you fall over then you are no longer in control. I'm sure there will be comments that if you're in control you won't fall over, but I'm afraid I don't buy that - patch of ice, hidden rock can all catch you off guard.


Sadly however that is the direction we seem to be heading in...as with driving there doesn't appear to be such a thing as an accident these days. Instead there is an obsession to prove someone was criminally responsible as a result of the outcome, not due to the action.

I hope the same doesn't happen to snow(and other) sports, but I think its a realistic worry Sad
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Curtains wrote:
I watched from a lift today as a skier tumbled today in arc 1800 on the brow of run then take two other skiers out but due the hard packed conditions the continued down the blue slope collecting 6 kids who has stopped in the middle of the run 50m further down.
The kids were in a ESF class and the instructor was not impressed, mind I was not impressed that she had stopped in the centre of a piste but it was strange watching it develop in slow motion.


Similar story last year on a sheet ice red, a skier without skis coming down on his back bottom unable to get any purchase, slid for over 400m and we didn't even see him fall! He was going at quite a lick, went off the side of the piste, missed the chair pylon by a few feet and was stopped by his ribs landing on a tree stump... horrendous! (not sure there was anything he could have done)
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Haven't read it.

Piste probably crowded as heck with rubbish conditions, as so many want to ski but few pistes are open. Doubles (at least) the chances of an accident.

Young males used to like snowboarding as it was cooler. Also cool not to take lessons. And not to follow instructions or be thoughtful of other people. Don't know how much the boarding bit is still true.

I suspect most ski deaths on piste are caused by head injuries. A few will be body injuries (hit a tree). If so, a protected head is less likely to result in a death on piste. Not sure it would cause one any more than a lack of helmet - helmet A to skull B or skull A to skull B, skull B is still going to be hit by something very hard.

The helmets discussion has taken place with motorbike helmets and car seatbelts for years; personal freedom/risk vs public health. I bought one a couple of years ago (after skiing/boarding on-off for 25 yrs) and don't see what the fuss is about. Frankly, if they make them compulsory and several skiers get angry and say they're now giving up, then woo-hoo, all the more piste for me Twisted Evil
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Levi215 wrote:
Curtains wrote:
I watched from a lift today as a skier tumbled today in arc 1800 on the brow of run then take two other skiers out but due the hard packed conditions the continued down the blue slope collecting 6 kids who has stopped in the middle of the run 50m further down.
The kids were in a ESF class and the instructor was not impressed, mind I was not impressed that she had stopped in the centre of a piste but it was strange watching it develop in slow motion.


Similar story last year on a sheet ice red, a skier without skis coming down on his back bottom unable to get any purchase, slid for over 400m and we didn't even see him fall! He was going at quite a lick, went off the side of the piste, missed the chair pylon by a few feet and was stopped by his ribs landing on a tree stump... horrendous! (not sure there was anything he could have done)


attempt a self arrest?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@endoman, i don't know what that means.... he couldn't get any purchase with anything, no skis' no poles...
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Levi215, http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=90981
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Levi215 wrote:
@endoman, i don't know what that means.... he couldn't get any purchase with anything, no skis' no poles...


turn onto your front and do a press up. Minimises contact with snow.
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endoman wrote:
Levi215 wrote:
Curtains wrote:
I watched from a lift today as a skier tumbled today in arc 1800 on the brow of run then take two other skiers out but due the hard packed conditions the continued down the blue slope collecting 6 kids who has stopped in the middle of the run 50m further down.
The kids were in a ESF class and the instructor was not impressed, mind I was not impressed that she had stopped in the centre of a piste but it was strange watching it develop in slow motion.


Similar story last year on a sheet ice red, a skier without skis coming down on his back bottom unable to get any purchase, slid for over 400m and we didn't even see him fall! He was going at quite a lick, went off the side of the piste, missed the chair pylon by a few feet and was stopped by his ribs landing on a tree stump... horrendous! (not sure there was anything he could have done)


attempt a self arrest?


The skier may well have not known the Giles Green self-arrest technique. A very useful thing to know, I read about it years ago and I've used it once in anger when I fell on an icy steep black piste (my first time on that piste), skis came off and I started sliding! I didn't know whether the piste shallowed out or what obstacles lay below!Shocked Fortunately I remembered what I'd read, got my feet below me and onto my stomach facing the ground and did a slow push up, which brought me to a halt unharmed (although I almost incurred a laundry bill for my ski pants wink )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
You learn something new every day very glad I read this thread thanks.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
That's good know. I once slipped on a steep black run, and slid about 30m down hill coming to a stop where the gradient slackened a little near where our guide and 2 of my kids were watching and laughing.

My guide complemented me on how well I'd fallen, saying it was instinctive how I got my skis downhill and tucking in my arms and poles. I was sliding on my backside initially and then got onto my side to dig a ski edge in! I've never lived it done with the kids - worlds best faller!

I've also watched a snow boarder in a rabbit onesy slide about 300m headfirst down a icy black run in Trysil. No damage done but it didn't look like he was going to stop for much of it.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Pruman wrote:
Quote:

I used to do anything to get out of the way and not cream weaker, smaller skiers. Now I have to just push them out of the way.

So, you can see them, you are presumably coming from above (or behind) and travelling faster, yet you prefer to 'cream' them than take avoiding action. Discuss.


Yeah that's exactly what I said.

The point is if you ski along in a big group blocking the way and if you allow your kids to dick around swerving off piste and back on you are placing them in more danger than progressing sensibly in single file. Sooner or later someone without quite enough skills will attempt a pass.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Pruman wrote:
Quote:

I used to do anything to get out of the way and not cream weaker, smaller skiers. Now I have to just push them out of the way.

So, you can see them, you are presumably coming from above (or behind) and travelling faster, yet you prefer to 'cream' them than take avoiding action. Discuss.


Did you read what Marmottes Dave wrote at all?

This is about where people who have no special awareness at all, rejoin the piste or cut directly across it without any warning and jump straight in front of a moving skier.

You don't have to be moving unnecessarily fast. On EOSB I had a woman jump on the piste about 6ft in front of me. She didn't think to look when joining the busiest piste in Val Thorens, just rode straight on, perpendicular to the piste - so had I not hit her then somebody else would have. Previously I broke my cheekbone because a skier jumped off a button lift directly in front of me and I took the cat track as the only alternative to hitting them. In hindsight, I should have just pushed him out the way. It's not my responsibility to break my face to prevent other people having to look where they're going. (Nevermind the ongoing hatred of people who jump off button lifts before the top).

Sorry I don't think there is anything to discuss. I am very courteous of slower and less experienced skiers (we've all been there) - although it does annoy me when you're getting a nice quick run on a black run and you come over a crest of a hill to be confronted by a couple of snowploughing newbies who occupy the whole piste, aren't in control of their skis and cause you to create danger by slamming the anchors on, in an area that you should be able to take at speed.

But no matter how courteous you are, you cannot read the mind of an idiot.
snow conditions     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
dp wrote:
it does annoy me when you're getting a nice quick run on a black run and you come over a crest of a hill to be confronted by a couple of snowploughing newbies who occupy the whole piste, aren't in control of their skis and cause you to create danger by slamming the anchors on, in an area that you should be able to take at speed.

dp, why do you feel that a crest of a hill is a place that you "should be able to take at speed"?
Skiing blind into what you cannot see is not clever on any run, and that includes a black one. You never know what you may encounter.... instead of a couple of struggling newbies, you may run into a fallen skier/rider.... maybe another couple of people trying to move him/her, or trying to administer first aid if the injury dictates no movement?
Or, even worse (for you), a parked up piste basher Puzzled

Just sayin'...
ski holidays     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
i"d just like to say i think faster more experienced skiers are just as dangerous as slow skiers, just because they think they can ski well they also think people should get out of the way for them, usually the person behind is the one at fault, even if the person in front of you takes off without looking you should be aware he or she might do that. as for helmets i personally dont wear one, if you bang your head on a rock its gonna do some damage even if your wearing a helmet, it never helped michael shumacher who fell on a blue run. and helmets can lead you in to a false sense of security making you feel invincible.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Didn't Schumacher have a go pro mount on his helmet that allegedly made his injury much worse than it would have been?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The anti helmet lot always talk about Schumacher, but he hit a rock. I don't wear a helmet to protect me from rocks, I wear it to protect me from smacking the piste.
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I wear mine for that and because its warmer than a wooly hat.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I also think he fell at at high speed, head first into a boulder. Not much is going to save you at that point. I personally wear a helmet. Even a small bump on a rock that is protruding through thin layer of snow can do massive damage. Can't see a reason not to wear a helmet tbh.

Really feel for the persons family in this tragedy, horrible thing to happen to anyone.
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dp wrote:
As for helmets, even if the resorts aren't prepared to make the ruling, the insurers should. It's absolutely in the interests of the insurers, so I have no idea why they haven't already gone for it. If the ski insurers made it mandatory, it would force the majority of people into it.


Do you feel the same way about mandatory helmets and car insurance, given the large number of head injuries that result from vehicle crashes (despite airbags)?

Or is it only skiing where your ideas should be imposed?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@dp, in your own words:
Quote:
I used to do anything to get out of the way and not cream weaker, smaller skiers. Now I have to just push them out of the way.

You push weaker, smaller skiers out of the way. I have never had to do that. Nor would I because pushing out of the way more than likely means pushing over. You can't be in the right when you'd so clearly be in the wrong in the event of an injury.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Pruman, I fully agree with you and couldn't understand the attitude that dp seemed to be taking. In dp's defence, I think he read the comments a little differently from you and I. He assumed that the children were re-entering the piste in such a way that their appearance would be a surprise and impossible to predict by DotM. That wasn't the way I read it, especially as he mentioned a family skiing along a 'cat walk'. (I think he meant cat track). Either way, I think deliberately pushing any skier, especially younger skiers' out of the way is ludicrous. Then again, I took dp's comment with the usual degree of scepticism that I greet all the endless comments on SH along the lines of 'if he/she did [insert irritating behaviour here] then I would punch them in the face/ram a ski stick up their.../etc.'. I.e. Meaningless boasting to try and look like a big man.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Pruman, I fully agree with you and couldn't understand the attitude that dp and DotM seemed to be taking. In dp's defence, I think he read the comments a little differently from you and I. He assumed that the children were re-entering the piste in such a way that their appearance would be a surprise and impossible to predict by DotM. That wasn't the way I read it, especially as he mentioned a family skiing along a 'cat walk'. (I think he meant cat track). Either way, I think deliberately pushing any skier, especially younger skiers' out of the way is ludicrous. Then again, I took his comment with the usual degree of scepticism that I greet all the endless comments on SH along the lines of 'if he/she did [insert irritating behaviour here] then I would punch them in the face/ram a ski stick up their.../etc.'. I.e. Meaningless boasting to try and look like a big man.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@SnoodyMcFlude, @t44tomo, @compostcorner, i 'heard' the other week that Schumacher had a modified go-pro mount with a bolt through the helmet... could be a load of bs but also could be true. The mounts with the 3M Gel i'm sure would come off under the level of force rather than go through and destroy the helmet... (anyway different discussion)
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Orange200 wrote:
Haven't read it.

Piste probably crowded as heck with rubbish conditions, as so many want to ski but few pistes are open. Doubles (at least) the chances of an accident.

Young males used to like snowboarding as it was cooler. Also cool not to take lessons. And not to follow instructions or be thoughtful of other people. Don't know how much the boarding bit is still true.

I suspect most ski deaths on piste are caused by head injuries. A few will be body injuries (hit a tree). If so, a protected head is less likely to result in a death on piste. Not sure it would cause one any more than a lack of helmet - helmet A to skull B or skull A to skull B, skull B is still going to be hit by something very hard.

The helmets discussion has taken place with motorbike helmets and car seatbelts for years; personal freedom/risk vs public health. I bought one a couple of years ago (after skiing/boarding on-off for 25 yrs) and don't see what the fuss is about. Frankly, if they make them compulsory and several skiers get angry and say they're now giving up, then woo-hoo, all the more piste for me Twisted Evil


The risk of a fatal skiing injury is negligible unless you consider 1.06 fatalities per days of participation rate (per million) significant. I can see why insurance companies are not bothered about helmets - statistically discriminating against helmet wearers would make no sense.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@holidayloverxx, @endoman, thanks for the link, have to admit i doubt it would have worked, it was literally sheet ice the boots wouldn't have enough purchase to get anything. Just like glass top to bottom.... that said we'll never know! Does anyone actually teach this, sounds like it should form part of the basic how to get your ski's on lesson?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:

have to admit i doubt it would have worked, it was literally sheet ice the boots wouldn't have enough purchase to get anything. Just like glass top to bottom.... that said we'll never know!


You may be right but it would have reduced his speed somewhat.

I took a fall at the top of the steep section of Trolles (black) above Tignes on an early morning in refrozen spring conditions. I'd been carving nicely but came over a little roller (too fast - my bad, although the piste was almost empty) and the unweighting meant I lost grip, skis slid sideways into refrozen corduroy ribs - chatter, chatter, click, click - and I was sliding sans skis.

I rolled onto my front and did the press up self arrest which had some effect although the piste was rock hard and pretty steep. Unfortunately I was just wearing a base layer under a shell and my forearms were taking a hell of a beating on frozen corduroy. I rolled back - and saw that the piste was long, straight and empty and just rode it out. I went 300-400m on my back, face facing down, steering a little with my heels, before gliding to a stop in a bank at the side of the piste as it leveled out. No damage done except to my bruised forearms and injured pride. If it had been on a bend with nasty hazards off piste then it could have been different (although I wouldn't have been going as fast so the fall might not have happened. In any case I would have sacrificed my forearms). Must admit it was pretty, er, "invigorating".
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
After snowboarding last week in Cortina, Kronplatz, Alta Badia and the Sella Ronda I observed a lot of people on the piste with absolutely no situational awareness, or care for others either. I know you get this at peak times during holiday season, however the 'nerd ratio' was very high, even on pistes which were technically difficult due to the very icy conditions. I saw too many skiers skiing 'heads down', staring fixated at a point about 6ft in front of their ski tips without looking anywhere else to see if there were others around them, quite a few wearing earphones listening to music, so couldn't hear anything around them, and kids as young as 5 straight lining it down blues without any control or care for others on the slopes. Maybe the US and Canada have the right idea with Piste Police Officers who use speed guns to catch the idiots going too fast on blue slopes. Just wish they would cart people off the piste who stop and block the runs to have a chat oblivious of everyone else behind them having to slam on the anchors not to hit them! My Gopro card is full of evidence of the "idiot factor".
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
You'd be surprised how effective toes and hands are as an ice brake, if you tried it. Anyone who has done any basic winter mountaineering or climbing course will have been taught self arrest on day one, with or without ice axe. its fun to practice as well
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
snowglider wrote:

dp, why do you feel that a crest of a hill is a place that you "should be able to take at speed"?
Skiing blind into what you cannot see is not clever on any run, and that includes a black one. You never know what you may encounter.... instead of a couple of struggling newbies, you may run into a fallen skier/rider.... maybe another couple of people trying to move him/her, or trying to administer first aid if the injury dictates no movement?
Or, even worse (for you), a parked up piste basher Puzzled


It's a valid point but you're taking it a bit literally. I never ski in a way where I can't come to a complete stop at any reasonable distance. I'm just saying that it's bloody irritating when you can't complete a nice run at a decent speed, not because somebody has taken a fall (that's a reasonable excuse), or somebody has selfishly parked a piste basher in the middle of a black run (which to be fair I've never seen, they normally at least find the side); but just because some idiot has decided that they want to take a punt at simply making it down a gnarly black run so they can tell their friends they did it after a week on skis.

I have all the time in the world for beginners, I've been one. I remember the transition from blue to red, red to black. But I absolutely mastered blues before moving to reds and absolutely mastered reds before moving to blacks. It's just frustrating when you can't ski a black in the style that it was clearly meant to be skied, because there are 2 people occupying the full width of the piste ahead of you, who are still learning a basic skiing technique.

nelly0168 wrote:
dp wrote:
As for helmets, even if the resorts aren't prepared to make the ruling, the insurers should. It's absolutely in the interests of the insurers, so I have no idea why they haven't already gone for it. If the ski insurers made it mandatory, it would force the majority of people into it.


Do you feel the same way about mandatory helmets and car insurance, given the large number of head injuries that result from vehicle crashes (despite airbags)?

Or is it only skiing where your ideas should be imposed?


With all PPE (Personal Protective Equipment), the use of the PPE has to be proportionate to the risk presented.

You use PPE where the risk cannot be eliminated, or minimised, using any other controls.

So in the form of a car, in the UK at least, your main controls would be:
- All drivers must hold a valid license
- All drivers must drive within the designated speed limit for that area, with speed cameras / humps / etc to control this where necessary
- All cars must hold valid MOT to show it's safe to drive
- All new cars are manufactured with safety features such as airbags, crumple zones, anti lock brakes, seat belts etc.

So with these controls in place, you can dictate that a helmet is not proportionate to the risk. In any activity there is always a risk of injury beyond the scope of what the controls protect against. The controls are there to minimise risk without excessively compromising practicality.

With skiing, there is no validation of competent people on the pistes. There are no speed limits, and no speed enforcement. There is no legislation to ensure that skis are safe and serviceable. And even the most modern skis are not manufactured with any specific crash protection on them. So your control measures have to move further down the scale to PPE. For most people, this is a helmet and boots, and jacket/trousers to protect against abrasions - but you could decide to also include a back protector, knee/elbow pads, etc.

I believe helmets should be mandatory because the head is such a vulnerable part of the body, and there are not any other effective control measures in place to reduce the risk to head injuries.

Pruman wrote:
@dp, in your own words:
Quote:
I used to do anything to get out of the way and not cream weaker, smaller skiers. Now I have to just push them out of the way.

You push weaker, smaller skiers out of the way. I have never had to do that. Nor would I because pushing out of the way more than likely means pushing over. You can't be in the right when you'd so clearly be in the wrong in the event of an injury.


Since April, I've had 2 moments where I've been in a position where by no fault of my own, I have had somebody jump out in front of me in a manner where I've not been able to stop in time and would not be expected to. Not through excess speed, just due to the fact that people have pulled out in front of me at excessively short distances without looking. (If you want a list of other people this has happened to, google "motorbike crash victim" I expect half of them will be victims of the same principle).

I am not an uncourteous skier. I ski responsibly at sensible speeds. But I can't be expected to spend my entire day at 5mph on the basis that people might jump out without looking. That isn't practical. The only point I am making is that you need to become a bit more selfish about it. Rather than swerving to avoid, and posing a risk to yourself and possibly to other people on the piste; you may need to be selfish and let that idiot take the hit. That's all I'm saying. Clearly if there's space on the piste to miss them safely I'm going to do that. I'm not deliberately going to push somebody over just for the hell of it. But if you think I am going to ski over the steep edge of the piste, or ski wildly in front of somebody else just to avoid this idiot... and put myself or somebody else at risk so the idiot does not get creamed, I am afraid that you are very much mistaken. It's simply not my responsibility to put myself or somebody else in a position of high risk to suit other people.

I think you need to scrutinise my post with a little less assumption that I am an evil person and try to sympathise with what I am saying. All I am saying is that where the choices are: (1) excess risk to oneself, (2) excess risk to somebody not involved, (3) push somebody over who has created this situation; it is not that unreasonable to choose option 3. Slowing yourself and hitting somebody direct on is likely even to be the safest thing to do, in any case.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@dp, I just don't buy that this happens this often. i.e. that you're forced to nail someone who appears from nowhere.

On any piste I'm always tracking my route down and conciously (or subconciously) picking up the paths that skiers downhill from me are taking. Accordingly my speed is adjusted and ski through them, or not, as the case may be. Ski schools snake along, so you try and aim to pass ahead of the instructor, mobs of rubbish skiers on too tough a piste are normally random in movements so i get as far away as possible and as for skiers off piste, I also tend to see where they are and tend to not be on the edge of the piste in case they re-enter.

Sure, I might end up getting close to one or two from time to time and they may feel I cut them up, but it's a long way from pushing them over.

IMO.
snow conditions     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
A helmet is not the be all and end all of preventing head injuries. Yes they can help to prevent or lessen injuries.

However, wearing a helmet does nothing at all to stop your brain moving inside your skull in a severe impact, so it is incredibly simplistic to say that wearing a helmet would have prevented a severe injury or fatality. If you smack your head really hard on something solid, helmet or no helmet, you are going to get a brain injury of some kind Sad

(FWIW, I do choose to wear one, not only for skiing, but also when cycling and horse riding. But that's my personal choice, I've had my ability to live a normal life saved by wearing a helmet on at least one occasion falling off horses, so I'm quite a fan of protective headwear. But, it's each to their own. Your head, your choice.)
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Badbobby wrote:
@dp, I just don't buy that this happens this often. i.e. that you're forced to nail someone who appears from nowhere.


It doesn't.

Quote:

On any piste I'm always tracking my route down and conciously (or subconciously) picking up the paths that skiers downhill from me are taking. Accordingly my speed is adjusted and ski through them, or not, as the case may be. Ski schools snake along, so you try and aim to pass ahead of the instructor, mobs of rubbish skiers on too tough a piste are normally random in movements so i get as far away as possible and as for skiers off piste, I also tend to see where they are and tend to not be on the edge of the piste in case they re-enter.

Sure, I might end up getting close to one or two from time to time and they may feel I cut them up, but it's a long way from pushing them over.


No you are right and I'm the same as you. I constantly adjust my skiing style to account for all the factors around me - snow conditions, other skiers, etc etc.

But! Somebody, who you couldn't see, or you were convinced was doing something else - IE riding button lift, standing off the side of the piste, skiing off the side of the piste... suddenly jumps back on about 10ft in front of you... then what?

Happened to me at least once a week last season. You can't prepare for it. It happens in an instant.

I am talking about like when a cat jumps in front of your car. Do you swerve to avoid? If there's space, then great. But if swerving means you drift into the other lane and into the path of another car... you'd be better to train yourself to hit the cat because ultimately, it created this situation, not you, and not the other driver. But you can't drive around all day at 10mph on the premise that a cat might jump out in front of you. That's all I'm trying to portray.
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@slulu, I'd expect insurers to make them compulsory only because it's probably going to make the insurer's costs go down in the event of an accident. You're right about injuries due to the brain moving inside... although there is the MIPS system which can go some way to reducing this further.

My want for them to be compulsory is based on the following:
1) They do reduce injuries. This has been proven. Reduce injuries and minimising risk, is good.
2) It means that new skiers are more likely to don a helmet. New skiers who are not experienced are at the most risk in terms of likelihood of an accident (not the most risk in terms of severity), yet by helmets being 'optional', it says to them that it's OK to go without. When I learned, I didn't wear a helmet - despite them being available - because the fact that it was optional made me assume that the risk wasn't substantial.
3) Lower insurance payouts is good for me, because insurers never lose money, they just reclaim it in next year's premiums... so a safer industry means lower premiums for everyone.
4) Less injuries is good for me, because more injuries only leads to more interest from authorities and over-regulation of the sport. Where people can't be trusted, over-zealous authorities step in and do it for them. Europe hasn't got too bad yet but Britain and America are good examples.
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@dp, i see your point but i'm hoping that these are a once every few season event, rather than a once a weeker. I've not hit anyone (or been hit) ever. Maybe lucky.
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Make all skiers and boarders do ski school to a certain standard, currently anyone can strap on a plank(s) and shoot down the mountain.

Helmets- it's your head, your choice.

Insurance- with 3rd party liability should be mandatory.

Pistes coming together should have piste patrollers to manage very busy junctions. I can think of a couple of pistes in the 3 valleys where beginners are blitzed by "expert*" fast skiers.

* Expert in their own heads, not actually any good. Like retards who do 50mph down green runs on New Year Week.
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@dp,
Quote:

I'm just saying that it's bloody irritating when you can't complete a nice run at a decent speed, not because somebody has taken a fall (that's a reasonable excuse), or somebody has selfishly parked a piste basher in the middle of a black run (which to be fair I've never seen, they normally at least find the side); but just because some idiot has decided that they want to take a punt at simply making it down a gnarly black run so they can tell their friends they did it after a week on skis.

I have all the time in the world for beginners, I've been one. I remember the transition from blue to red, red to black. But I absolutely mastered blues before moving to reds and absolutely mastered reds before moving to blacks. It's just frustrating when you can't ski a black in the style that it was clearly meant to be skied, because there are 2 people occupying the full width of the piste ahead of you, who are still learning a basic skiing technique.

It may be irritating to you, but I'm afraid that people are quite free to struggle down any run they choose. They have just as much right to be there as you and I don't think there is a 'style in which [a black run] is clearly meant to be skied.' If a weak skier gains enjoyment from struggling down a black run, then that's entirely up to them. I do agree that things are different off-piste as there is the potential for an ill-equipped skier to endanger others, but on-piste anything goes.


Quote:

I think you need to scrutinise my post with a little less assumption that I am an evil person and try to sympathise with what I am saying. All I am saying is that where the choices are: (1) excess risk to oneself, (2) excess risk to somebody not involved, (3) push somebody over who has created this situation; it is not that unreasonable to choose option 3. Slowing yourself and hitting somebody direct on is likely even to be the safest thing to do, in any case.
I think peoples' reactions were slightly inevitable given your phrasing, but I also think your logic above is a little flawed. The normal, human reaction in these circumstances is not to determine one's action by first apportioning blame but by choosing what course will produce the least harm for all concerned. Whether you prioritise others ahead of yourself might depend upon your/their age or disability but I really don't think it should depend upon your split-second interpretation of whom is to blame (unless they are a snowboarder.)
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dp wrote:
@slulu, I'd expect insurers to make them compulsory only because it's probably going to make the insurer's costs go down in the event of an accident. You're right about injuries due to the brain moving inside... although there is the MIPS system which can go some way to reducing this further.

My want for them to be compulsory is based on the following:
1) They do reduce injuries. This has been proven. Reduce injuries and minimising risk, is good.
2) It means that new skiers are more likely to don a helmet. New skiers who are not experienced are at the most risk in terms of likelihood of an accident (not the most risk in terms of severity), yet by helmets being 'optional', it says to them that it's OK to go without. When I learned, I didn't wear a helmet - despite them being available - because the fact that it was optional made me assume that the risk wasn't substantial.
3) Lower insurance payouts is good for me, because insurers never lose money, they just reclaim it in next year's premiums... so a safer industry means lower premiums for everyone.
4) Less injuries is good for me, because more injuries only leads to more interest from authorities and over-regulation of the sport. Where people can't be trusted, over-zealous authorities step in and do it for them. Europe hasn't got too bad yet but Britain and America are good examples.


Aside from your unfortunate habit of pushing small children out of your entitled way, you know the square root of f*ck all about helmet statistics and their affect on the actuarial business that is insurance. Despite the near saturation use of helmets, the incidence of serious head injury has, if anything, gone up.
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