Poster: A snowHead
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I'm going away soon with a couple of friends who have skied for two weeks in total, the most recent being two years ago. I had assumed they would book lessons for this forthcoming trip but they aren't sure they want to. I am worried that they'll end up frustrated with themselves and each other whereas with a bit of professional guidance they would have a lot more fun. I'm pretty sure their reluctance is not for financial reasons so I don't really know what the underlying issue is.
I've written to the ski school to ask what they think and what they have on offer. My plan is for us all to ski together on the Sunday, and be able to put them into ski school from the Monday if they change their mind. I won't be around during the week as I'm on a course.
Any advice on how to handle this situation?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Let them do what they want*, and if they get frustrated with themselves and each other they can go and book in.
*Doesn't mean they should expect you to only ski blues slowly with them the whole time either
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Maireadoconnor, Sunday morning ski at their level. Sunday afternoon ask them to ski at your level. When they can't tell them the the quickest way for them to ski at your level is to take lessons from a good instructor, but if they are happy to ski at their level, making only slow progress and maybe picking up some bad habits along the way then there is no need for ski school. They will still enjoy their holidays, after all.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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book some lessons yourself and lead by example.
Nobody is ever too good they can not learn from the right instructor/coach. So maybe if you get them round and they see you are going to book lessons as well then they just might be inclined to follow the example of their more experienced friend.
The last few days book them in half day and say that is your time to explore and find good areas to ski with them after their lessons end. ( forgot to add they do 5 days you do 2-3 days of lessons thus have some free time etc).
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 2-01-17 12:37; edited 2 times in total
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@Maireadoconnor, have you suggested maybe a couple of private lessons rather than a week in ski school? As someone who never particularly liked being in ski school, I can see it from that side. Ski schools can be a bit hit and miss, so it doesn't always feel like limited time on the mountain is well spent, but a good private instructor can make a bigger difference in a short time.
I have only spent 5 half-days in group ski school in total, right at the start (unless the off-piste clinic counts ) but generally spend a few hours in private lessons each season. This has given me a lot more time to ski as I want, and with the people I want.
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Some people feel like they're missing out on seeing/skiing the area if they're in ski school - especially if they think it's going to be 5-6 days going at the weakest skiers pace. I've felt like that in the past. If they're resistant to ski school for that length of time look at a 3 day option or maybe a private lesson for one of the days.
We still do ski school occasionally but opt for the 3 days usually.
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It's impossible to argue against the logic of taking lessons, but they aren't for everyone (especially those who have 'suffered' at the hands of the ESF.) I've seldom had a group lesson that I've enjoyed, but I've sedom had an individual lesson that I haven't enjoyed. I'd suggest they consider a few private lessons (cash permitting) and maybe describe them as 'guiding' or coaching. However, the eternal problem of private lessons is that the majority of them are only available when the group lessons aren't happening so you end up with the choice of a lesson or spending an hour having a fun lunch with all your friends. If they don't want lessons, then I'd suggest you just accept that and let them enjoy their holiday how they wish.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If money is not a large concern then I would recommend sourcing a private instructor/guide from the Ski School. We do this most times we are in the alps for 5/6 out of 7 days and we have a wide ranging group usually (in age and skill), then the guide is able to address people individually and help on all levels. A lot of times the more experienced skiers may go off somewhere and leave those who need more help but to be honest skiing the piste with family is some of the most fun you can have especially when the instructor/guide is handling what lifts and pistes to use (no stress ).
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Which resort? That might help a bit. (Recalling FTZ's comment, and my experience, of the ESF).
Otherwise, why are you so concerned? It's their week, their money, their problem. If you won't be around in the week, then it's not like you'll be dragged down to their level, or have them badgering you for a few tips all the time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I used to ask people who their favorite sports person was. Then ask them if they have a coach? The answer is always yes, so if the best need a coach why don't we? Everyone benefits from having some professional coaching in one form or another. Anyone who says I never had lessons or I don't need lessons are just fooling themselves, if they think they are 'good' skiers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agree that we can all benefit from a good coach or instructor, and that's the best way to improve. But does everybody want to improve? Does everyone need to improve?
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@Maireadoconnor, that's a bit harsh on Gamsbock and snowPenguin. I thought they'd been keeping up with you fairly well?
I guess they really shouldn't have skipped the PSB after all
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Maireadoconnor, all ski independently in the morning and then together in the afternoon after a late lunch?
At the end of the day people will do what they want, most of the people i go with have decided themselves they need some guidance because they can't keep up with the next levels in the group. The self conscious aspect of slowing people down has either driven them to 1) not come (generally they're not bothered either way about skiing) or 2) get some guidance and tips. I've been trying for several years to change a group dynamic around destination and in the end i've given up and just gone where i want to go, very very difficult to influence people, particularly around holidays and money (in terms of how / where to spend).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Agree with a lot of the comments above. After two weeks on skis I'd be loathe to tell people that they "have" to go into group ski school. In fact I'd suggest that while group lessons are very good for the first week or two of learning, after that the benefits of fewer but more intensive private lessons can have a better impact on learning as opposed to another week of group learning. One or two private lessons will cost a similar amount as a week of group lessons anyway.
It also depends entirely on how good they actually are. I've had a few friends come on holidays in the past few years who have been going through the beginner-intermediate stage. One or two were at a decent pace already, could keep up with the group, and added a group lesson or two through the week to top up their learning. Others took a little more time to get there but were happy to pootle along with one or two others at their level before they had the confidence to ski quicker and therefore not hold people up too much.
You'll see how they are on the first day, but unless they really can't yet get down a blue I think I'd let them get on with it (especially as you aren't with them for the rest of the week) and suggest they get a private lesson for a couple of hours and see how that works out for them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If they won't take your advice, you may as well write them off. This was my experience in 1995 when my expert kayaking team friends declared that "skiing was too difficult" and they took up snowboarding instead.
One has since come back to skiing, and is now 10 times better a skier than he ever was a boarder.
On the other hand, you do sometimes meet real sports genius.
I met a guy who had been skiing as a holidaymaker for a couple of years.
But: He'd turned up for Eurotest training because he "wanted to become an instructor" because he was bored with his job as a waiter. He even went to the ski school manager to apply for an instructor job the next season "after I've passed the Eurotest" he said... (Much to everyones' mirth, I might add).
Well, he did those couple of weeks summer training, then a week or two more, I think, and promptly passed the Eurotest!
(I found out he'd been a very good gymnast, and of course he was young enough not to see the problem).
MyaSHBash sounds brilliant! (Had to look it up...)
I'll maybe give it a bash!
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 2-01-17 14:45; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@SkiPresto, after hearing the same reasons/excuses year after year for not getting around to giving it a try, I figured we should try to do something about it
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@admin, hahahahahahaha! No, those two will be otherwise occupied
@rob@rar, your advice is exactly what I'd agree with if they were just a bit more experienced than they are. They're around a 4 or 5 on your scale. Not quite at the level where they can safely and happily get all around the mountain without help. With another week's instruction under their belt I wouldn't worry about them. I will certainly ski with them on the Sunday morning - good practice for my teach!
You're right to ask why I'm concerned. In reality, I'm not going to be directly affected as I'll be on my course during the day from Monday onwards. My husband will be free skiing and having a couple of private lessons. My two friends may or may not be expecting to ski with him. Of the two of them, he's over-confident (wants to hurtle down anything), she's under-confident (wants to go slow on the easiest of blues).
The scenarios I'm worried about are:
* Someone gets hurt.
* Husband has to babysit and gets no time to free ski and gets annoyed.
* Friend 1 insists on skiing with my husband. Friend 2 gets left on her own all week. Friend 2 has a miserable time and doesn't want to ski again.
* Friends 1 and 2 ski together and have a massive row because they're doing something too scary.
* Friends 1 and 2 ski together and have a massive row because they're doing something too easy.
... and I have to sit at dinner with glowering angry people.
Private lessons is certainly one route, but their temperaments are so different that they probably shouldn't share, so it does get a bit expensive.
We'll be in Jungfrau and I've got in touch with Altitude in Wengen.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks Admin
“If not us, who? If not now, when?” (JFK)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Maireadoconnor, they are adults they don't need babysitting. If you're that concerned i would question you going on holiday with them. Sounds like you shouldn't be...?
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How about getting them to watch The Jump and telling them, that's how injured they'll get if they don't have lessons?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My lessons had some benefits other than just the coaching:
During our sessions we talked about the resort, what runs were good, what slopes to avoid, what time of day etc. The instructor was quite a useful guide in this respect.
The lessons added a bit of structure to my day, wasn't bumbling about aimlessly as I can.
Meeting other people of similar level and basically being a bit social.
To be fair I didn't think I'd take a lessons apart from a day 1 private, however once there I realised the benefits. I do regret not booking in advance, the lessons ended up costing a lot more by booking at the time but I guess that varies place to place.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Anyone know about that ski school? I've never been to Austria but heard good things about the teaching. I'd suggest putting them in group lessons, making sure they're different groups. Each can make new friends at their own level rather than annoying each other.
A good instructor (IMHO!!) asks the group what they expect/want at the start of the day/course, to understand who wants technical work and who wants an easy tour round the mountain; then individual group members won't be disappointed.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I find it uncomfortable to ski with friends who use brawn rather than technique to ski, generally their route is unpredictable. It really only affects me if we have to wait for ages for them to catch up, if this is not an issue then I would not be too concerned.
My experience from family, friends and personally is that a couple of half day private lessons are money well spent and can be much more satisfactory than ski school. If you are really generous you could book a half day for yourself on the Sunday and invite your friends along. The chances are that you will get no benefit from this lesson but your friends will see an exponential gain in their skill set, which could be mutually beneficial later in the week!
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@Orange200, yeah, @SnowPenguin was shadowing with that ski school last week and thought they were good.
I entirely agree; that's my thought exactly. As @RoboJ said, it's not all about the 'training', it's the whole experience.
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You know it makes sense.
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My wife won't ski with our group at all, preferring to join lessons where she's sure she won't be out of her depth, she gets the benefit of learning, meeting new friends and being guided around a new resort by someone who knows exactly where to go.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Roguevfr, very sensible. Wonder if the name 'ski school' , or 'lessons' needs revising to better convey the appeal and advantages.
Or as per @speed098,
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book some lessons yourself and lead by example. |
I know it doesn't fit you situation this week, but sometimes demonstrating is the way to go. We have beginners with us many times. Telling them we're unable to ski with them on say, the Tuesday, as we're having private instruction, often initiates and eases into the "Oh? but you're good, why are you taking lessons" discussion: from which you manipulate it towards them.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Maireadoconnor, next year go on a beach holiday with this couple.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Umm, have you actually seem your friends skiing and know how quickly (or not) they have picked things up?
Personally 2 trips in ski school was enough for me to get up, making parallel turns and happy on blues. My friends opinion was that I'd enjoy the week more and be better off skiing with, and being push a little out of my blue comfort zone by them than in ski school and, well they were right.
On another hand I was skiing with someone just before Christmas who was on real snow for the first time after about 6hr in the snow dome. Right off the bat he was probably better than me after 1 week and by the end of the week about where I was after 3 weeks.
And on yet another hand we've dragged another friend in to skiing and last trip (week 3) he preferred to ski on his own, I think worried he would be holding us up and spoiling the holiday. We're off again next week and he'll be told such behaviour won't be acceptible this time. Yes, we probably would ski faster without him but that doesn't mean we would ski better or enjoy our holiday more. In fact it's probably more fun to watch him develop/fall - and for him to get a boost when we fall, realising it's not just him.
I'd say ski with them for the first day and make a call after that. The chances of them still being in the snowplow are slim and my experience was that after week 1 a couple of private lessons, say Tues. and Thurs. mornings will give them more instruction than another week's ski school. I certainly got more out of doing that in my 3rd week than my 2nd week's ski school, where I mainly seemed to be paying someone to read the piste map for me so I didn't need to worry about where I was/where I was going.
Maireadoconnor wrote: |
I'm more concerned about everyone having to go at the slowest pace or alternatively everyone spending lots of time alone. Not a recipe for a great holiday. |
It will depend on your friends but my first week skiing with my friends there was a mix of actually skiing together, just sharing a chair with a plan for me to do a blue while they did a red to the same place, etc. If there is a big difference in your friends speeds then you can find ways to amuse yourself. Start skiing with the slowest while the other goes ahead, using the chance to practice your own slow-speed technique before bombing down to catch up with the other and maybe going back up/down to catch up with the slower one completing their first run. You get some time with each friend and some fast time of your own, and if lapping you can be stood at the bottom of your second/slow friends first run while you wait for the middle friend - and slow friend doesn't think they are holding you up as you and middle friend are always waiting for them at the bottom.
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