 Poster: A snowHead
|
Sorry for repeated question but I'm not sure if I'm right.
Anyways, new skis and two weeks after skiing mostly grinding courderoy early morning I've found my skis slipping out.
Does that make sense? Like on steep (red) slope with ice patches the downhill ski seems to slip away from me
I know it's mostly posture and my own poor skiing but it wasn't happening last week, in fact I thought I was carving and skiing great.
So I'm wondering should I get them tuned?
Will this stop the slipping out?
Its affecting my skiing as I've lost all confidence under me when going faster and wanting to carve.
Any advice appreciated.
Oh and to prevent a new thread......
A really stupid question .
My ski locker has water in the bottom in a tray but I can't t get it out, is there something stupid I'm missing or is it normal
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
quick fix if you always keep skis on same feet is to switch skis to give a fresher edge. Sounds like they need a quick sharpen though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@endoman,
Thanks just reading conflicting advice but my instinct is telling me same.
How do I tell what feet? I'll look into this tomorrow 😀
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@hawkwind, I tune my own skis and do so every couple of days when the piste is hard, even every day when it is really hard.
Maybe your technique needs a tune, but after two weeks I am sure your skis do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| hawkwind wrote: |
@endoman,
Thanks just reading conflicting advice but my instinct is telling me same.
How do I tell what feet? I'll look into this tomorrow 😀 |
Sounds like you don't ski with same ski on same foot everytime so that idea won't work. Just get them sharpened somewhere, but of wax won't do any harm after 2 weeks either, especially if you didn't wax them prior to using.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Cheers folks.
They are going in tomorrow, I'll post an update.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If the shop don't use the same edge angles as the factory then you may find that even after the service your skis feel (disappointingly) different. I puzzled about this for years until it finally dawned on me 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Maybe i'm being a bit lazy and 'google should be my friend' but does anyone have any really good links on how to sharpen edges of skis??
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Yoda wrote: |
| If the shop don't use the same edge angles as the factory then you may find that even after the service your skis feel (disappointingly) different. I puzzled about this for years until it finally dawned on me |
Wintersteiger now produce a ski servicing machine that will do the base edge as well as the side edge to whatever angles you want and put a ceramic hardening polish on it so it lasts longer. Not many places have it but if you can find one, it's well worth it. Skiset in La Tania has one and it's easily the best ski service I've ever had.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
The link isn't working for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@emwmarine, Oops extra . on the end fixed now 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's well worth spending a day with Jon and learning to tune your own skis properly.
Far better to hand tune skis rather than letting a shop grind your edges and bases away on a machine
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Maybe i'm being a bit lazy and 'google should be my friend' but does anyone have any really good links on how to sharpen edges of skis?? |
Take them in to a reputable shop with a decent machine and operator.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@crosshatch, knowing who is a 'decent machine and operator' isn't that straight forward though, is it? At EOSB somebody sent their skis into the hotel shop to get the edges done, they went in at 89dg and came back at 91dg!!! Interesting, but not clever.
I think it's well worth learning to do your own edges... the kit isn't expensive. I think you should do your edges at least every other day and preferably de-burr them daily, having that done in the shop will cost you a fortune.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Well skis were back to normal today and skiing was fun again, nice and grippy so they did need sharpened.
Downside is the cost, another hidden extra
So for sure ill be looking into investing in my own tuning kit.
Thanks everyone for all the advice.
One thing I'll add is for anyone like myself with 1st own skis, service them, that feeling of slipping out seemed a bit dangerous to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Raceplate wrote: |
| .....Wintersteiger now produce a ski servicing machine that will do the base edge as well as the side edge to whatever angles you want and put a ceramic hardening polish on it so it lasts longer. Not many places have it but if you can find one, it's well worth it. Skiset in La Tania has one and it's easily the best ski service I've ever had. |
All ski edge material, irrespective of the manufacturer, is 48 on the Rockwell Hardness Scale (Scale C) give or take a tad. If the edges were only slightly harder then they won't take the continual flexing & will crack. Atomic had this issue a number of years ago on their Metron range when they used slightly harder edges (55 Rockwell IIRC).
Cutting/polishing with a ceramic tool won't make the edges harder. The benefit of using a ceramic cutter on ski edges is that it produces a lot less heat than usual silicon carbide or alu-oxide tools which ensures no or less heat related hardening takes place. A smoother edge will give more durability as there's no/less unsupported microscopic 'peaks' to easily burr over and ceramic cutters can give this but it all depends on the 'grit' being used.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@spyderjon, aren't you meant to be on holiday?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| spyderjon wrote: |
Cutting/polishing with a ceramic tool won't make the edges harder. The benefit of using a ceramic cutter on ski edges is that it produces a lot less heat than usual silicon carbide or alu-oxide tools which ensures no or less heat related hardening takes place. A smoother edge will give more durability as there's no/less unsupported microscopic 'peaks' to easily burr over and ceramic cutters can give this but it all depends on the 'grit' being used. |
Interesting info, thanks. It's not the way it was explained to me but it was a while ago so maybe I misunderstood (or maybe he did as it was new). Sounds logical anyway. I have to say I love the directional swirl marks that the ceramic discs produce - it really looks like a fine piece of engineering with a super high quality finish.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@dp, +1
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Raceplate wrote: |
| .....I have to say I love the directional swirl marks that the ceramic discs produce - it really looks like a fine piece of engineering with a super high quality finish. |
Nope, they're just machining marks which shows that the surface isn't smooth. The smoother, finer & more honed the finish the less marks they'll be. Machining marks can be decorative when done deliberately - it's generally known as 'engine turning' - which originally was a circular/crescent pattern but it's now the generic name for any kind of deliberate pattern but it's only used on none mating/non functional surfaces for decoration. I used it a lot in my gunsmithing/knifemaking days were it was also useful for disguising minor blemishes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Maybe its because my Metrons have never been on a machine and only ever hand filed after SpyderJons excellent tuition that they are still going strong after all these years
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Slightly misleading info,and I know I'm not talking from experience on a ski tuning machine but I'm a cnc machinist you'll get sparks from even the finest grinding operation, even one that leaves a mirror finish. Surface marks are preferable in engine bores etc and many mating surfaces rather than mirror smooth due to the reduction in surface friction, the exact same reasons that a structured surface on the ski bases is desirable. I can assure you that a properly set up machine will remove far less material than a file, unless done by a very skilled tech.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
On ski's when you tune them yourself, you very rarely use a file, just a light polish almost with a diamond stone, it removes almost nothing. Ski tuning machines in shops are rarely properly set up and are normally used by monkeys who grind away edges and bases merrily at any old angle. You can often see the ski is visibly thinner. Plus they just wipe a minute amount of some liquid wax on the base.
Engine bore honing marks are good as they hold oil/lubricant against the metal. not something thats needed on a ski edge
Bet no world cup racers have their ski's done on a machine
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
No, probably not,since there are people employed to do such for them, hence the caveats in my post above "properly set up" and "skilled tech". However, most people doing their own edge tuning will most likely be using an edge master or similar which uses a file, not a diamond stone.
They might use a diamond stone in it, but that's not generally how they are sold as standard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
This is a very informative thread, ty all. I service roughly 2-4 pairs of skis a week for myself and the kids - diamond stone in a toko edge tool is the default action. They'll only see a file if there is a lot of damage to an edge or if someone wants a steeper angle, and in general that translates to 1-2 file sessions per season per ski pair. This is in general what i understand most people who service their own ski's do? You wouldn't be long knackering the ski if you used a file every week. On that subject - whats the best way to restore structure to a base? I've noticed that there isn't a lot of structure left visible on a few sets of skis - presumably for that i have to go to a shop or can you do it by hand without arsing the ski up?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Just brush and brush works well for me, my ski's are always faster than a mates who supposedly has his FIS competition ski's done by a race technician. I use the red/brown brillo pad stuff (buy it cheap at car repair sites) and a horsehair brush by hand. But now use one of the excellent brushes on the end of a drill sold by Spyderjon which do a superb job in a 10th of the time and effort. 4 or 5 bases waxes followed by 5 zoom wax's all brushed heavily produce a very very fast ski indeed and the wax base tends to last as well
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
I've noticed that there isn't a lot of structure left visible on a few sets of skis - presumably for that i have to go to a shop or can you do it by hand without arsing the ski up?
|
Shop. Make sure you just get the stone grind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@madmole, I have to admit that without being a grumpy old man I'm with you. Most of the shops services I've seen have been rubbish, people a bit too happy-go-lucky with the machine cutting away peoples edges. I spoke with some ski shop techs in Cham (won't name the shop) last year who said that they were both students doing a placement unpaid, who'd been given a morning's training on the machine. They'd also been given minimal training on fitting people's boots and skis. It seems that it's common practice, to take on 'placement' students over the winter, on minimum wage or 'work experience' rates (ie nothing!) and a season pass, give them a day's training on everything in the shop and then leave them to it.
I don't want to be difficult about this, but sparks are lumps of hot material flying away. They don't come from nowhere. It's either a piece of the grinding disc or a piece of the ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
yep, none of my ski's (nor my mates) will ever see a shop grind. They are prepped immaculately, sharpened every day when skiing and waxed properly. They are always extremely fast. Never worried about base structure, brushing properly puts more than enough in. Spyderjon taught me well
My little secret, Rain X applied between zoom layers and as a top coat! As far As I can tell its exactly the same stuff as Zardoz at 1/10th the price
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| madmole wrote: |
yep, none of my ski's (nor my mates) will ever see a shop grind. They are prepped immaculately, sharpened every day when skiing and waxed properly. They are always extremely fast. Never worried about base structure, brushing properly puts more than enough in. Spyderjon taught me well
My little secret, Rain X applied between zoom layers and as a top coat! As far As I can tell its exactly the same stuff as Zardoz at 1/10th the price |
Oooh, I'll bear that in mind when my puck runs out. Did 5 pairs of skis using Jon's stuff the other week, all belonging to my seasonaire lad and GF. None had seen any servicing, so the edges took a bit of initial filing but are all spot on now. Look forward to seeing how they ski when we are off in a couple of weeks. Shall be taking my basic kit with me and setting up a makeshift workstation somehow on the balcony.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Yep, once the angles are set, its no work at all to keep em sharp. Balcony is good place especially is a light dusting of snow as it hides all the wax shavings  . Put some news paper under them and iron the wax in in your room. Put em outside to cool the wax and scrape, them bring em back in a brush away, normally they will only need to wax once mid week, especially if you Zardoz/Rain X each day
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
On ski's when you tune them yourself, you very rarely use a file, just a light polish almost with a diamond stone, it removes almost nothing.
|
@coddlesangers, I hand file my snow ski edges every week. A prefer a fine file regularly rather than course one infrequemtly.It is better that I keep on top of the edges and not let them get too bad.
I suppose it depends on when and where you ski how often you sharpen the edges. A week on really hard packed snow and the skis will need sharpening. Using skis on snow and as a consequence filing them every week the edges will still last the life of the skis (usually about 100 days); or at least untill other damages forces you to retire them.
On the other hand dry slope skis will be sharpened every couple of hours and the edges will be filed away in a couple of years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Put em outside to cool the wax and scrape
|
Seeing as you are all ready going double full whack with the prep, better to keep them in the room while cooling as the longer they are warmer the further the wax will penetrate (extra microns count, right), but obvs scrape outside when cool.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Some valid points above. Human error is responsible for a lot of bad hand tunes and machine tunes. Lots of variables for both. Unfortunately not many people have the experience of working with good machines and hand tools to see the finishes achievable first hand. As an example, base bevel is regularly done badly by hand, irrespective of the file guide(s) used.
Regarding material removal - you'd be surprised! Natural reaction to assume there wouldn't be much edge material left after seeing the sparks fly but it's simply not true (most of the time!). A well calibrated machine results in a superbly precise, long-lasting finish that often removes less material than a toothed file.
Machines are improving all the time and they are now commonly used to tune race skis at the highest level, all over the world. Of course, finishing touches, extra base bevel etc can be applied by hand but it's quite common to do the bulk of the work on a machine nowadays. Given the choice, would McVitie's package biscuits by hand or machine? Certain operations are simply done better without humans.
If you want ski bases structured properly then you need a stone grind. World of difference between belt sanding and stone grinding, although they both have their uses. You cannot flatten a ski base and base edge with a belt. Fact. For the best possible finish in the UK on a manually fed stone grinder, the bindings should be removed and there should be next to no variation in the top sheet of the ski i.e. flat and smooth. This allows for even pressure along the length of the ski which results in even material removal, depending on the many parameters used on the machine. Unfortunately this takes time which adds to the overall cost, but if you want premium, you need to pay premium. Grinding this way also means more precise base bevel can be applied. Two identical machines set up to different specs with different techs will turn out entirely different results.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
