First Time Poster - quad pain

A snowHead

Quick bit of background, then the problem...

I am new to skiing having found it in middle-age. Adore it. Have been at it for a few months and probably skied about 20 days (or the equivalent thereof). In the middle of my second ski holiday of the season, with the 3rd booked for January Smile

Apparently I am an “intermediate” according to ESF, but I feel fairly hopeless to be honest. I reluctantly accept that getting good takes years not hours.

I have quad pain when I ski. Indescribable quad pain. I know the reflex response - back seat skiing. I am 95% sure the problem is me. However what I am after is some reassurance that there is not an equipment set up problem (as well as, not instead of – sure there are mountains of technical failings!).

The leg pain needs context - I have a long history of competitive sport which is all heavily leg oriented - rowing, cycling, weights. I am in pretty good condition and train each day, normally twice each day at the weekend. I appreciate skiing uses your legs eccentrically or even quasi-statically, so the specificity from other exercise is far from perfect. I guess my point is that my leg strength is probably no worse than average. My friends have substantially less physical conditioning and experience nothing like this.

I can ski a 7-8hr day, for five straight days…. But quite absurdly I cannot ski for more than 90 seconds at a time. I can put myself in the position of barely being able to stand up 50 times a day – I recover and go again. I am fairly sure skiing is not meant to be like that, right?

Having done some internet research (but I have not been skiing long enough to be able to discern good advice from bad yet), the following observations may or may not be relevant – I just have no idea.

(1) If I put my boots on at home and straighten my legs, I fall forward… a lot. My CoG is way way beyond the tip of the boot (that may be absolutely normal?)
(2) If I do the above, the plumb line down from my knee is roughly in line with my toes; I have very short tibia’s compared to my femurs (and for my height generally), so this observation may be of limited use ?
(3) If I have come down a blue gradient for say 60 seconds and built up (too much) lactate and run out onto a flat, even standing as tall as (I think) I can, I get no relief from the tension in the legs whatsoever – in fact it gets worse. I can only clear the lactate by stopping.
(4) If I stand on my skis and straighten my legs completely, I reckon my CoG is about halfway between the front of the binding and the tip of the skis. I don’t have my skis to hand, but I suspect my head would be quite close to the tips (well, it feels like it – guess I could measure it – it feels like the skis would snap ☺ )
(5) If I stand facing a wall with my toes 75cm away from it, I can straighten my legs, lean forward, and touch the wall with my head. I am 182cm. I have no idea whether that is a lot of movement in the ankle, but it feels like a bit.

As I say, I am fairly certain the problem is me, but if anyone has any useful thoughts I would be very grateful. (Not only am I beginner, but this is my first post, so be gentle – I know I have a lot to learn and that I am impatient).

A snowHead

I have no idea but am impatient to hear other responses.

Fascinating.

Do your other sports involve gradients? Tensing up?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Rowing and cycling put your quads under a lot of load, but it is concentric, so the muscle contractions pumps the blood through. With cycling the forces are low but at a high cadence. In rowing the forces are very much greater but at a much lower cadence (if you are doing it right). You only need to put a muscle under about 35-40% of its maximum tension to occlude the blood flow completely, so skiing is very different. During a turn there will be little to no blood flow through the muscle (I am not a good skier, but exercise physiology is a huge part of my life).

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Welcome to the madhouse!

Did you get your boots fitted? (see other threads for what snowheads think makes a "proper" bootfitter). If so then the boots and your feet/ legs should be in about the right relative places. If not then go and see a bootfitter to make sure.

Skiing at moderate speed shouldn't feel that hard on the legs over a timescale of seconds if you are reasonably fit and you sound a lot fitter than me. I have never had anything similar coming from variable amounts of rugby training and nothing ski specific. If you tense up though, which is very normal while learning, you are locking the muscles which will make them hurt, it also makes your balance worse so you fall over, and get more tense!
One trick I was told to notice getting tense is that there is an unconscious tendency to curl the toes up, something to do with ancestral monkeys not wanting to fall out of trees and so holding on with their toes. If you feel the toes curling it is time to concentrate on relaxing the legs and loosening up in general. It helped me while learning and is still a useful warning sign now (big moguls in my case).

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Thanks for the response! Smile

Yes, I got my boots custom fitted - ProFeet in Putney - took about 2hrs. They did a great job in term of foot comfort, but I am not sure whether anyone gave any thought to the forward lean point?

I am 5,000miles away from home, so going back is not an option at the moment. I might try to persuade a local boot fitter to take a look, but I don't want them to "find" an opportunity to sell me different boots(!)

My toes curled for the first few days, but that stopped a while ago. Only 87 other major technical issues to fix Smile

One of my ski friends who has been at it for 25 years suggested a couple of shots before hitting the piste. Hmmm....

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If you can look in a mirror side on with your boots on (skis too if possible) which shape does your body take? The back seat position or shins angled forward and the rest of your body pretty much upright.

It is possible that the boot has too much forward lean angle which is forcing you to sit back to compensate. Some people prefer a more upright stance, some like to have a lot of forward lean.

Seconded to go and see a decent, experienced boot fitter, and also if you haven't already done so book a one on one or a shared lesson, this may show up a problem with how you are skiing.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@VT2016, I have been skiing for many years and seasons and still ski smoother after a couple of beers Toofy Grin

Your body is often relaxed and you let the skis do the work.

After all it is free

May even be a problem with foot beds, if you have a very high arch the lack of support under them may be causing you to tense up elsewhere.

I would be surprised if modern boots had such forward lean that it would cause such a problem.

I am thinking tensing still.

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@VT2016, What Scarpa said.
Also, have you seen yourself ski on a video? If not get someone to use your phone to video you, and look at your position when skiing. Are you skiing mainly upright, or in a "sitting on the toilet" position? Is there much up and down movement in your knees and hips when you turn, or are you holding your legs solid to drive the skis around the turns with your thighs?

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Just because the problem/relief cadence is so quick in what sounds like an otherwise fit and strong individual.

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@Scarpa - have popped my boots on and am standing side onto the mirror to take a look. If I let my shins rest forward against the tongue and then put the rest of my body absolutely vertically, the heel of the boot will lift from the floor with my CoG right on the very tip of the boot toe. I have to engage my toes within the boot to stop falling forwards. I can basically balance right on the tip of the boot with the heels 2mm off the floor. To bring the boot back flat on the ground (but with the CoG on the balls of my feet), I need my femurs 5 degrees off vertical (i.e. leaning slightly back), creating (say) a 20 degree bend in the knee which is sufficient to switch on my quads. Actually started to hurt them (after 8 hrs on the mountain yesterday)... just standing.

Read this:

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=116804

Blot out the awful photos and then answer the following:

1) What is your calf circumference at the top of the boot?
2) Get into a racing tuck position with your boots on on a flat surface. Where are your armpits in relation to your knees?
3) Put the boots on. Pile beermats one at a time under the heels of the boots and adopt a ski stance. Better or worse? Remove the beermats and try the same thing with the boot toe. Better or worse?

You know it makes sense.

@Scarpa - ok, will scrap trip to boot fitter and go to pub instead Wink

I have a high arch and instep, but the fitter built up the area underneath so they feel comfortable

@Chamcham - I have had video taken; I am certainly not skiing with my backside hanging out the back. It looks reasonably upright to me. However my hips are not as forward as they could be. When I am skiing on a green (which provide me an environment when I can really think about what I am doing), I can pop my hips forward (as you do at the end of a deep squat for the power lifters out there). However the net position feels... unstable. Really far forward. I guess the problem is that for the beginner, that is often likely to be the case in any event?

I do have a tendency to drop down into the turn and then "forget" to get back up. I am certainly guilty of not enough movement.

I really don't want to fall into the category of "can't do it, so it must be an equipment problem" - I hate that.

I think I might spend the morning going around the major boot fitters in town and hope some North American customer service drives someone to take pity on me and take a look!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@gorilla

Racing tuck position? Let me know what that is, and I will try to answer the question? Smile

My calves are quite slim (compared to my upper leg and generally).

Beer mats!? Wrong order of magnitude there, I fear. I put a 1.5cm book under each toe and it felt much much better. I could stand up straight, lean forward, but my quads stayed switched off.

The link is really useful... but it does make it look likely the problem is me Sad

I could identify with all that was said there. I fear my hips are not getting tucked under me enough....

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Many thanks for your help gorilla (and everyone!!). Good luck with the 18month old. I have had two at that age. They say it gets easier. "They" lied Wink

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I have Technica Mach 1 110 (2015) boots.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@VT2016, i had exactly the same issues with a pair of boots I changed them for more upright boots problem solved and it sounds so much like you I was put in a position where my quads were permanently engaged so never had a break and i couldnt really even stand up straight I had to lie down on my side after a couple of runs. I did mess with the forward lean on the boots but I just fell out with them a swapped them and im so glad I did.

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@VT2016,
It reads like your boot is a little too stiff for you.
This means that the boot is pushing you forward and doesn't like to be as 'relaxed' as a softer boot.
I'd guess that after only about 20 days skiing, the issue here is pure technique.
I expect you are tensing up and really having to support your own weight using your quads to remain in the position that the boot is forcing you into.

On your next holiday rent some softer boots for the morning and see how it goes.
I really wouldn't focus on adapting any of your gear as yet. Grab a private lesson and get someone to analyse your position. maybe even have the softer boots ready too!

Good luck!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Ok slight odd ball here, but are you on statins?

The reason i ask is that i'm a relatively fit skier having done "a few seasons" when not skiiing i cycle 100+miles a week and dinghy race twice a week.

Then about 3 years a go i started taking statins and jeeze h chr..... When i next went skiing my quads didnt just ache but seriously hurt and struggled to recover.

Went to see dr when i got back and they changed my statin as it was a "known possible side effect" of the ones i was on.

After all it is free

@flangesax, hmm, interesting point, nominal 110 boots are not particularly stiff but maybe.

I've never seen anyone with 15mm toe shims (wedges?) - not that I'd necessarily know Happy

My two pence worth, having just scanned through the responses (so could be utterly unhelpful!).
Skiing starts with balance. (That's not me saying it...it was lesson one of one month of advanced ski tuition with Mark Jones...BASI instructor of instructors if you weren't aware of him). You should be able to stand with your weight evenly distributed along all of the sole of your foot. It should feel like you are standing on all of your foot. If your boots don't let you feel the whole soles of your feet when you are trying to achieve that, then it's a boot issue. On the other hand if you can stand on and feel the soles of your feet, then my guess is it's your issue. Take lessons. Btw..I too have very high arches and foot beds with heel lifts. It seems counter intuitive to have heel lifts but they worked for me. (Female skier, significantly shorter and lighter than you thought, with no burly sporting history that would have ocer developed any muscles!)

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@VT2016, Take a read of this post here, and the replies. A very fit guy had a similar issue to you, and found a solution:

http://www.epicski.com/t/109848/yeeha-i-found-my-problem-muscle-vastus-medialis

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I am really grateful for all the responses - incredibly helpful.

I went to the boot fitter. An interesting experience. Mentioned the leaning forward issue to boot person no.1. He flipped them around a couple of time (I wasn't in them at the time, thankfully), held them up, and diagnosed them as "fine - you are meant to lean forward". Ooookay then. I offered to get in them for him. That was unnecessary for the diagnosis, it seems. Raised the second issue of a painful 4th toe on my right foot. Enter boot person no.2. He talked me through the nerve and bone structure of my foot, how it moved when I turned (well, I guess what he meant was when someone turns the way they are meant to turn, not my excuse for a "turn"). He sounded a bit like an orthopedic surgeon on amphetamines. He also sounded like he knew exactly what he was talking about. He sorted out the shape of the boot with his Bunsen burner – that bit feels better.

As for the forward leaning issue, I am going to try to organize a 1 on 1 lesson – probably best someone takes a look at the technical shambles and lets me down gentle on the “this is what you think you are actually doing -v- this is what you are actually doing” front. Will probably need a stiff drink afterwards.

(PS No statins or anything else that would affect H+ accumulation or perfusion)

(PPS @Poogle - no, the loading is higher up in the belly of the muscle and slightly to the outside. I guess I could try to make my legs bigger and bigger, but I am not sure that is the way forward. People are skiing comfortably and happily on much smaller legs, so I fear we have a technical problem...)

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@VT2016, Good to know that you have compatable boots Smile

I am currently swapping between a more upright off piste boot and a more forward angled race boot and I really have to subtlety change the way I balance when I ski them, it's more of a perception thing with me.

I used to get major quad burn when I started as I intinctively tended to fight the snow and try to force my way round turns. These days I ski in a much more relaxed style and allow the skis to do most of the work, getting the technique right really makes such a difference.

I found that doing my practice on really gentle slopes allowed me to concentrate on position and balance etc without feeling that the skis were running away with me.

@VT2016, I suspect it will be easily solved with a stance adjustment. All interesting. All good snowHead

You know it makes sense.

@VT2016, can you share the video of you skiing?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@gorilla, I do like that graphic.

If it's a technique issue though, gear won't solve it Little Angel

A snowHead

Yep the graphics explain it better than I did Laughing

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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OK, firstly there is no way someone with your level of fitness should feel anything like the way you describe. Many many less fit (indeed almost completely unfit) people ski all day at a fairly relaxed pace without the need to stop more than every 5-10 mins and given the fitness you describe you should be able to ski entire runs from lift to lift at good speed without any need to stop.

I am nowhere near as fit as you, and I experienced what you did. I found myself just done with skiing by lunchtime, and by 3pm everyone else wanted to carry on and I headed back for a bloody good sit down because skiing was becoming miserable and I couldn't fix the problem.

The solution was a couple of things. I spent some time working on my boots. Profeet helped with some of that, so you are in reasonable hands to help with your problem, but if you are a long way from there getting their help might be a challenge. I had a spoiler in the back of the boot that was removable, first thing that happened was that got removed. My boots were tipping me slightly too far forwards (compounded by some calves that were, at the time, pretty massive, and if you do a lot of exercise that could easily be a factor too) and it was just enough to mean that I was always subconsciously sitting back to remain balanced. I was nowhere near as far forward as you describe when standing tall, so I'm expecting an issue there.

Second solution was Inside Out and their backseat clinic. It involved a day of filming me skiing (with some really useful views as I went past freeze framing my stance and drawing on the frame what my legs and torso were doing) and drills that were basically designed to be almost impossible in the back seat. That might be logistically challenging, but a good instructor focused on the specific problem may be able to help.

First thing I would try, in your position, is to rent a pair of boots for a day. Get any old boot that fits, hopefully with visibly more vertical stance than your current boots, and see if it helps. It is a cheap and easy way to test a theory that your boots could be part of the issue. Second thing I'd try, depending on the outcome of the rental boot test, is to get some recommendations from here or similar for wherever you are skiing next to get a really focused couple of hours with an instructor. My clinic took all day to really click, but gave me an arsenal of tricks I can use when I feel the old lazy backseat coming back. Whenever I feel a bit of burn in my thighs, I start lifting the tail of my inside ski in turns, push my hands forwards and push my groin forwards a bit. It soon takes the pressure off and I can ski all day even at high speed on challenging pistes now.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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It might also be worth mentioning that if your problem is excessive forward lean his could be due to boots or binding delta on the skis or a combination of the two.

Edit: all of which @spyderjon posted far more detailed information on, while I was typing...

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@VT2016, you didn't mention if you own your own skis or rent and the make of bindings would give @spyderjon, a idea of the ramp angles.

After all it is free

@spyderjon, without question. But 2 maybe 3 out of 10 suggests 70-80% of the time it's technique, non? Twisted Evil

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@gorilla, he he. Yeah, I am agreeing with you, but a vid of the OP skiing would be interesting.

Help!!

First Time Poster - quad pain

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