Can anyone explain or point me to resouces, please? Just out of curiosity and own learning processes...
Heard several different explanations or terminologies over the years: initiation, mid, release & completion; steer, pressure, traverse; traverse, double weight, fall line, pressure outside, traverse; all sorts of other combinations which I can't even remember right now (brain is not switched on today, too much carol singing and mulled wine...).
So what's the up to date version, however it's explained and related to what's going on with body movement, ski angle, pressure (or not) etc at each phase? How would you change it for a skid vs edged/carved turn (if at all) and/or a race/slalom turn?
Thanks for any enlightenment.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
1. Setup
2. Load
3. Release
Setup is when you tip the skis on to their edges, blending in whatever amount of rotational steering you want. The skis begin to follow a curved path, setting up the turn.
Load phase is when the forces/loads begin to increase as the turn radius tightens. This is the main part of the turn, and a skilful skier will be able to influence what the ski does in that phase of the turn.
Release phase is when the skis begin to reduce their edge angle, flattening ready to tip on to the new edges to flow in to the setup phase of the next turn.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Grizzler, buy a good instructional DVD or on-line download ( for various devices). This way you can always refer back to the resource at home or on piste and the ability to re-run what the instructor said over and over infinitely. Ask here on Snowheads for recommendations...
@rob@rar, Brill, thanks. Seems that it's simplified itself somewhat (maybe) - but makes sense. To me there's a bit of overlap or contemporaneousness (is that a real word?) between phases 1 and 2 particularly (again maybe, depending on speed and type of turn).
At what part of turn, pre- or post- fall line, would you ideally put each phase; if there is indeed an 'ideal' answer to that? And how do you relate/position/time in the old unweighting (which I understand is not now a good term - softening, switching off one leg, transferring weight or whatever) and the pole plant? I'm presuming that the former has become integrated into the release phase's end, or is it part of setup? (This is where to me it has become more simple when described; perhaps not a problem when actually doing or feeling it, but when trying to say it or break it down into components to explain it.)
As said, 'tis just an academic exercise
@Grizzler, There is nothing wrong with "unweighting" as a description if that is what somebody is doing, it isn't something that you would teach though.
I just think in terms of pressure on the skis and whether I need to increase or reduce it at a particular point during the turn, any phases are as a result of this.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rjs wrote:
I just think in terms of pressure on the skis and whether I need to increase or reduce it at a particular point during the turn, any phases are as a result of this.
Now that's an answer that I like! Exactly what I do - though doubtless not necessarily always at the right point...
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Grizzler, Thank you for the opportunity...
Now as other Snowheads know, i have recently become a fan of Klaus Mair and SofaSkiSchool.com. What is particularly outstanding IMO is his easy to learn, easy to do and very easy to practice FEW drills and logic that produces very consistant turns, all of which are beautifully explained in very good concise english - he's actually very highly educated and quite funny to in places to aid memory. If you 'Youtube' him, i was staggered at his 2015 videos from Treble Cone NZ. His much earlier work, comes under quite a fair amount of fire with 'respected tacticians' describing as 'orrible! especially when compared to 'modern day' taught practice. HOWEVER, take a look at this and honestly tell me it's not something anyone would aspire to...' http://youtube.com/v/0kc_97MD0dg' and ' http://youtube.com/v/iZBh-lOT6SA '
I bought 'Blue to Powder', his latest DVD a couple of months ago ( also downloadable on various devices by Vimeo) and have been practicing his drills every week or so at Hemel. Having a 'purpose' at Hemel really helps the short vertical there.
Take a look at his DVD's reviews: ' http://www.sofaskischool.com/reviews/ ' - mines on there as well. Skiing can be a very balanced and not very dynamic activity or very dynamic with occasional balance problems needing quick correction. Klaus prefers to 'go for it', from time to time he over projects and gets an extreme pressure spike on landing/skis gripping - everyone's decision how they ski...
I have assimilated his best bits into my skiing with very good results ( i hope so at least) - it's an ongoing exercise with him and others to such as Tobin from Section 8 Snowsports : ' http://youtube.com/v/7GmzyOwZqsc '
So, as for 'phases of the turn', Klaus has best described them and i've followed his way. Particularly the easy Blue and Red section i've trained hardest to make it stick. Never had a problem at speed or steeps or Icy etc but just going slow in total control wasn't at all under my belt but now, slowly i can go slower and slower with much more control and i'm very grateful for his instruction.
I think it's fair to observe that mostly when these 'greats' are 'strutting their stuff', it always seems to be on a freshly groomed flat~ish Blue or Red run. Hmm...
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 6-03-17 21:42; edited 1 time in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I must confess that I have rarely seen a really good instructional video.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@under a new name, well, you can always read reviews and invest. If you don't like it then ebay it... I'm sure there are many out there, search, review and decide.
Having noticed what really good BASI trainers ( and others do) to ski skillfully SLOWLY and under great control, i really knew what i didn't know and thought a few quid wasn't that much to try and find out...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
In GS skiing think of transition - setup - load - completion - transition
transition - flatten ski , not by popping up but by projecting hips across and down hill with a small cross over
set up / platform - extend new outside leg rolling progressively onto edge and softening inner leg allowing body to incline into turn
Load / drive phase - ski just above fall line - driving outside ski into snow and increasing edge angle
completion / release -just after fall line as forces build allow angulation and flex legs enough to develop edge biggest angles but minimal pressure to get under gate, staying low and preparing for new set up be patient
Or in BASI speak Build - Work - Release
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 23-12-16 16:09; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Tim Heeney, unconvinced by what I have seen on Youtube. Anyway, much prefer personal contact.
I do think though that it is possible to improve just by watching good skiers.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
So, as for 'phases of the turn', Klaus has best described them and i've followed his way.
and back to the OP that would be what exactly? I recon you must be on a commission from old Klaus
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Klaus a bit skiddy to my eye in first sequence of first vid ...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@skimottaret, it's exactly as Rob says:
1) Setup
2) Load
3) Release
and i agree with Robs description as well in terms of the words and their meaning.
What i particularly like is Klaus's delivery of lesson, the few drills he advises and the clear input and outputs from each phase tieing them all together.
That's all really. I thought it was truly enlightening and brutally simple. By forgetting what i thought i knew and going back to the start, to the initial turn set-up etc and following his drills from there onwards, as i said in the online review i've posted, i was flabbergasted at the results.
I've had a few lessons from very good Instructors - admittedly in an ad-hock manner and while improvements have been made afterwards i always felt the result was small, i didn't always get the particular drill purpose, i was sometimes still trying to assimilate the previous drill before i was off onto another one and afterwards i could only just remember about half the lesson advice which even further reduced as the days and weeks went by. At about £50 /hr, i suppose the expense prohibited me from consistent instructor training. Not so with this method of learning and luckily i've been able to self analyse whats going wrong by simply comparing the stated outputs to my outputs. Particular DVD bits i've replayed perhaps 10x's now.
I'm certainly not on any commission from 'old' Klaus but i am highly impressed with his ski teaching principles.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@under a new name, if you don't like this from above, well you're a hard person to satisfy...' http://youtube.com/v/iZBh-lOT6SA '
But it's all personal choice and it's your choice to...
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 6-03-17 21:46; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@skimottaret, be under no illusion, i think you ski beautifully with precision and power...
I have no 'bones to pick' at all with your above 'GS' turn procedure. As it mentions
Quote:
minimal pressure to get under gate, staying low and preparing for new set up be patient
I assume this has been extracted from a particular manual - perhaps it's something you have personally written? However, academic point as i don't disagree at all.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Tim Heeney wrote:
@skimottaret, it's exactly as Rob says:
1) Setup
2) Load
3) Release
and i agree with Robs description as well in terms of the words and their meaning.
(Unsurprisingly) there's no difference between what I wrote and what skimottaret wrote. I simplified it as much as possible, talking about a single turn, but clearly there has to be a transition phase between turns; and "completion" is probably a more useful mental image than "release" if you are skiing in gates against the clock (as skimottaret prefaced his comments).
I've always been very critical of Klaus' videos on Youtube, although I've not looked at more than one or two of his earliest videos (which really are horrible). I should probably look more widely at his stuff to see what he's currently doing.
@Tim Heeney, no, you can't be any fairer. I still don't get the point though, I mean, he surely isn't suggesting that you can get to that levele just by watching his vids? Surely?
Austrians, eh?
Mine's a Grüner Veltliner, thanks.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@rob@rar, All i've ever' wanted' to say is that for folk that don't have enough money for consistent ski instruction, this particular DVD 'Blue to Powder' is in my opinion ( as it has worked very well for me but it may not for you ) an excellent point of constant reference for euro 29.99. It's available as either a DVD or downloadable on various devices by demand.
Klaus Mair (again my opinion but not the only opinion in that direction) is truly an inspirational Instructor / Teacher... he says his DVD is not to replace ski instruction but to inspire skiers into learning more and to take further instruction again. . Now, i think that's pretty fair...
After all it is free
After all it is free
Grizzler wrote:
@rob@rar, Brill, thanks. Seems that it's simplified itself somewhat (maybe) - but makes sense. To me there's a bit of overlap or contemporaneousness (is that a real word?) between phases 1 and 2 particularly (again maybe, depending on speed and type of turn).
Apologies, missed this first time round. While we can helpfully think about (and work on) the individual parts of a turn, the reality, of course, is that it's all a seamless set of movements as we flow from turn to turn. Identifying the parts can be useful, but at some point we have to put it all together and "just ski", focusing on the outcomes you are trying to achieve rather than the inputs you are making.
Grizzler wrote:
At what part of turn, pre- or post- fall line, would you ideally put each phase; if there is indeed an 'ideal' answer to that? And how do you relate/position/time in the old unweighting (which I understand is not now a good term - softening, switching off one leg, transferring weight or whatever) and the pole plant? I'm presuming that the former has become integrated into the release phase's end, or is it part of setup? (This is where to me it has become more simple when described; perhaps not a problem when actually doing or feeling it, but when trying to say it or break it down into components to explain it.)
As said, 'tis just an academic exercise
Woah, that made my brain hurt! Although we can talk about three phases of a turn, and the transition phase that links turns, it doesn't mean that each phase is an equal third of a turn. Each phase is not 60 degrees of arc. Also, the 'duration' of each phase will not be the same from turn to turn, depending significantly on the terrain you are skiing, the manner in which you want to ski it, the kit that you are using, the snow you're on/in, how busy things are, the depth of your hangover, etc, etc. So you're right to suggest there is not an ideal response your questions: frustratingly the answer normally is "it depends".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Tim Heeney wrote:
... i think that's pretty fair...
Indeed it is, and as I said I've not seen much of his stuff other than a couple of clips which are, inexplicably to me, highlighted as being useful. If he has better resources, and you have positive reviews, then that's great. I've never got that much out of video tutorials, but skiers have different learning styles so the more resources that are available the better in my opinion.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@under a new name, Not by watching his vids - he never says that's possible BUT but doing his drills, really understanding the theory, right from the best possible turn initiation onwards, feeling new sensations and of course practicing ( to refine those) and pushing yourself to great improvements can be made. Sure it's impossible to get from Intermediate to that level he skis at without numerous years of training and many many miles of skiing - infact he had 220 days on snow in the 2015 season!
Please read what i last said to Rob above.
I think an important point to make is the DVD teaching content is not shown on Youtube. I genuinely believe his teaching content is exactly as he knows it and is exactly what he tells his Instructors at Treble Cone to teach. Sure there are higher levels to his knowledge i've no doubt and a couple of chapters within his DVD are titled as 'Intro' with the majority progressing through Blue, Red, Black etc.
Take a look at his facebook page for Sofa Ski School. He's just a talented sincere honest guy ( again IMO) trying hard to make a living from ski teaching.
Thanks and Regards...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Hi Grizzler...still asking thought provoking questions, I see.
Start of the turn.
As an old school skier, I had to make quite an effort to remove the "Pop" from the start of the turn. I try to replace it by, releasing, softening, flexing and turning the inside leg into the new turn.
Middle of turn
- It may seem obvious, but the skis have to be given time, to go from one set of edges -> to flat -> other set of edges. IMO. The timing of this is critical and you can't just "whack" the skis over from one set of edges to the other.
- Feel for the "Flat" stage, with both skis changing edges at the same time and at the same angle.
- Through the middle of the turn, think of edge angles going from 1 (gentle angle) to 5 (steep angle)...and feel for the ski smoothly going through each angle (without taking a shortcut ie banging the skis over, straight from 1 to 5).
On shallow slopes, at gentler speeds, you don't need an edge angle of 4 or 5....and it should take longer for the ski to go from Edge -> Flat -> Edge (easing ski over from 1 to 3). Going faster, on steeper slopes, it all happens quicker...but still has to flow seamlessly and smoothly from 1 - 5.
ie. A patient approach, with no rushing the turn.
End of turn
- The point at which you release the turn, will determine your speed.
- As you pick up speed on steeper slopes, a more "aggressive" finish will help with control. You can get more control and "snap" at the end of a longer turn, by finishing it off with a little extra knee angle (ie. only with knees, without the upper body following)...but don't overdo it.
These are just my thoughts....and I'm happy for more knowledgeable folk to pick holes in them, in case I'm leading you up the garden path.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 23-12-16 23:05; edited 2 times in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
1. Initiation
2. Fall Over
3. Get up again
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
red 27 wrote:
1. Initiation
2. Fall Over
3. Get up again
Sounds like the 3 phases of my apres ski.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hi @Grizzler we all want to ski like Gods and we are all working towards it.
Lots of great advice from all the contributors to this thread.
If you are like me .. too much telling and explanation can only go so far .. I just can't remember it all.
You just have to get the mileage in and be happy with what you achieve, but always try to do better.
My favourite YouTube at the moment is this guy, I have to stand up and try and crank it over with him and pretend I'm chasing him down the hill as I watch, and the music works well too!
This is not an instruction video, I don't know who he is, but you cant tell me that you can watch it without "Moving to the music".
Just makes you feel good.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Old Fartbag,
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Tim Heeney wrote:
@skimottaret I assume this has been extracted from a particular manual - perhaps it's something you have personally written? However, academic point as i don't disagree at all.
Build work release is what BASI uses or setup load release as rob mentions are good ways to explain the phases of the turn but without mentioning the transition I think is an incomplete description. the original question asked about racing turns so I chipped in with a more detailed version. My description of a GS turn was my recollection of a chalk talk discussion after training one day. A very interesting chat as most of the guys were low fis point skiers, ex team members, et openers etc and that was what we jointly came up with (by memory). Not out of a manual but trying to work out what's works best on the hill while the days skiing was still fresh in people's heads and feet.
You mention klaus' videos as self help guides but not what he suggests are the phases of the turn and I was curious as to what his views are. haven't seen his recent vids , I am sure they are fine but not really appropriate to this topic.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Old Fartbag,
Quote:
- It may seem obvious, but the skis have to be given time, to go from one set of edges -> to flat -> other set of edges. IMO.
While I think this is mostly the case...
Quote:
The timing of this is critical and you can't just "whack" the skis over from one set of edges to the other.
... I believe you can.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag,
Quote:
- It may seem obvious, but the skis have to be given time, to go from one set of edges -> to flat -> other set of edges. IMO.
While I think this is mostly the case...
Quote:
The timing of this is critical and you can't just "whack" the skis over from one set of edges to the other.
... I believe you can.
Yes, I suppose you "can"...."should" is another matter entirely, though.
When I last looked at some of my tracks the change from one edge to the other took about half a (SL) ski length. That means that the ski travelled less than a metre from the point that the tip of the old edge disengaged to the point that the tail of the new edge is hooked up in a clean carve.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Old Fartbag wrote:
Yes, I suppose you "can"...."should" is another matter entirely, though.
The challenge is to change edges cleanly without introducing excessive rotation or simply pushing the ski(s) sideways when you don't want to. It's good to be able to do that quickly, but until you can do it cleanly perhaps best to slow down the movement until you develop your skills to do it cleanly.
When I last looked at some of my tracks the change from one edge to the other took about half a (SL) ski length. That means that the ski travelled less than a metre from the point that the tip of the old edge disengaged to the point that the tail of the new edge is hooked up in a clean carve.
I suppose I'm really talking about medium to long turns, where in my case, if I tried to rush the speed with which I angled the ski over, it was easy to over power the edge and skid a little. I personally found it good to exaggerate the sensation by slowing it down slightly, before then speeding it up to normal. I suppose it's going for the S shape (with flow), rather than the Z shape. Like I said previously, the faster you ski (and the tighter the radius), the faster it all has to happen. We're not talking large amounts of time here.
I spent 3 hours working on this with Simon Mc Combe and it definitely helped fine tune the turn.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
Yes, I suppose you "can"...."should" is another matter entirely, though.
The challenge is to change edges cleanly without introducing excessive rotation or simply pushing the ski(s) sideways when you don't want to. It's good to be able to do that quickly, but until you can do it cleanly perhaps best to slow down the movement until you develop your skills to do it cleanly.
Pretty much where I was coming from, as I felt having that image in your head, actually helps to achieve it. In my case, I stayed a fraction longer on a flat ski before starting to gradually angle it over (without any sudden/exaggerated movements).
After all it is free
After all it is free
Old Fartbag wrote:
Pretty much where I was coming from, as I felt having that image in your head, actually helps to achieve it. In my case, I stayed a fraction longer on a flat ski before starting to angle it over.
Yes, can be a useful exercise. Sometimes I'll ask clients to introduce a deliberate pause in the transition phase, just a second or two, then roll slowly on to the new edges, to stop them snapping and twisting. Then gradually remove the pause, continuing to focus on the smooth rolling on to the new edges. Can really help with cleaning the transition so you enter the setup phase of the turn in much better shape.
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@rob@rar, I spent my hours exercise today working on my skate skiing transitions... and slowing down my power strokes to lengthen glide.
I am sure this will translate into my Alpine.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
under a new name wrote:
... and slowing down my power strokes to lengthen glide.
Ooo err missus, etc.
I'm sure it will translate. I've never given much thought to skating on skis, just sort of did it, but was given a simple tip a couple of weeks ago: as you skate on to the new ski keep your nose above the middle of the ski, moving forwards along the length of the ski.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Exactly what I do - though doubtless not necessarily always at the right point...
and slowing down my power strokes to lengthen glide.
