Is this the worst ever start to a European ski season?

A snowHead

@dublin2, two points

1. It's really only the French Northern Alps that are having a tricky season.

2. And above 2,000m not so terrible either.

A snowHead

Well, in the Arlberg, it has certainly been a light season so far. Mid-Feb and only ~140cm on the Galzig.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Not the greatest season in Switzerland either.

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As other have said, it all depends where you are, how high you are and what skiing you do.

1) At altitude in the french alps, certainly in Val Thorens, the piste snow has, I think, been better than for many years - despite that lack of snow in December. I am no expert but I think it has avoided the freeze thaw cycles that cause the pistes to become ice blocks. But again i'm no expert on snow. Regardless, the pistes have stayed amazingly good considering.

2) Off piste has not been so good. I don't go off piste but I imagine regular small dumps are what people like for that.

3) Below about 2000m I imagine you would think it has been a particularly poor season so far.

So if you like off piste then you probably think it's been pants. If you like staying on piste and go high then I imagine it's been a good season so far. If you like going low for more characterful locations the probably also pants.

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Snow was very good in the Dolomites on piste for the BB. But judging by the webcams I saw before the week, natural snow had been very thin prior to that.

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Well this is about the half way point of the alpine season.

Wonder whether the next half will be better than the first ?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Peter S, I think, but I'm not sure, that in recent years the second half of the season has seen far greater snowfalls than the first half. However, combined with the generally higher temperatures that does sometimes means that lower resorts just get plenty of rain

After all it is free

Well this is about the half way point of the alpine season.

Wonder whether the next half will be better than the first ?

@Peter S, I think, but I'm not sure, that in recent years the second half of the season has seen far greater snowfalls than the first half. However, combined with the generally higher temperatures that does sometimes means that lower resorts just get plenty of rain

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In the Pyrenees the second half is always better than the first; it's just the nature of the weather in this part of the world. But the current season - despite a slow start - is working out better than average; the hideous blocking high pressure that normally lasts all of January in Spain(*) came early and left early (and blocked the northern French Alps and other places even further east) and since then it's been snowfall central... and the southern French Alps have got in on the act as well.

Talking about the "weather in Europe" really is nonsensical.

(*) goodness knows why more people don't visit Spain in January to escape the weather elsewhere, and yet insist on coming in August which I would class as one the three most unpleasant months of the year (albeit that the upsides such as warm water to swim in and wonderful temperarures after sunset are very nice).

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Well, as the season draws gently to a close it seems a suitable moment to revisit this issue. Personally, I haven't skied this year. Largely because of work commitments but also because conditions haven't been so fabulous that I've been encouraged to drop everything and head to the Alps.

I've looked at some historical snow data where you can compare the last four years. My unscientific conclusion based upon a pretty random selection of resorts is that that this has certainly been one of the worst for many years. I seem to remember that 2010 was atrocious, but the data didn't go back that far.

Snow depths are actually pretty much at average levels right now which seems a little counter-intuitive, but what makes this season stand out is that there seem to have been relatively few snowfalls and the peak depths of early March never materialised. The really low resorts have had a terrible season.

My personal lessons from this year, and the last few are as follows:
1. If you want to be sure of having at least some snow then don't go before about January 10th.
2. Resorts are brilliant at keeping the place open so you can be sure of having a reasonable amount of snow right to the very end, even if you need to go high.
3. Now, more than ever, I'm extremely unlikely to even consider any low resort (below about 1200m in France) at any time of the season. A skiing holiday is way to expensive to spend a week in the rain surrounded by grassy fields when everywhere else is covered in fresh snow.

snow reports

Well I think that's completely wrong but of course depends where you go and what you want to do.

Up high, the pistes were much softer than in previous years and we got some great piste skiing in through early December. As everyone was moaing from their armchairs the reports from people out in resort were good - certainly from the high resorts.

Snow depths aren't hugely relevant. Snow condition is much more important.

@emwmarine, I agree that it depends where you go, but the poor season seems to extend across most of the Alps from what I've seen although I did most of my 'research' on the French Alps with less focus on Austria.

Early December may have been good, but a great many resorts didn't open until most of the early snow had melted. There will always be reports of good snow from people in the higher resorts. If you have rubbish snow at 2300m in February then you really have got problems. It's at the 'edges' (start and finish of the season, lower altitudes etc.) that one can see how snow-stressed a resort is. Most people going to the Alps will have had plenty of good snow, but that doesn't mean that statistically it isn't worse than most recent years.

Which bit did you think was 'completely wrong?'

Yes, snow condition is equally, or more, important. It's harder to measure so doesn't get reported in the same way. It seems to have been quite a warm season and there have been plenty of grumbles about the lack of decent off-piste so I'd be surprised if it's been particularly good in terms of snow condition.

You know it makes sense.

what would help resorts & I am sure they would invest more if they saw the return is if they fixed the date for Easter. it is late again this year & a couple of weeks makes a big difference.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@foxtrotzulu, I think you are generally correct - although I would venture to say that it really mostly refers to the Northern French Alps as it seems to have been netter in the Valais, for example and definitely has been better in Aoste. That said, below 1,600m or so, that may not even count.

I would counter that if you are a piste only skier, which most people are (they may think they are not, but they are) it's been a really great season provided your area was high enough or had good snowmaking. It's been mostly cold and mostly very sunny.

Which is what most people want out of a ski holiday. I know you personally like the alpine ambience of snow (ice?) covered pavements and the joys of kicking piles of snow (only to find that they're made of Parisien dog-poops) but for 9 out of 10 dentists, if the skiing's good and it's sunny, then, job done.

I certainly wouldn't recommend a pre-week_after_new_year trip if snow is the primary focus - but again, for many xmas and new year's skiing is about the holiday, not all about the skiing. And many places had decent skiing this year.

What's been really odd this year has been that we've had maybe 3 really good dumps with nothing in between. And thankfully cold temps.

A snowHead

Completely depends on the area of the Alps/Europe.

- Austria coldest January in 30 years and some "low" (central/eastern) resorts having the best season in "years".
- South Western Italy (Aosta- Wrong!/Via lattea) having a stellar year inc some southern french resorts - Montgenevre etc.
- Andorra (not sure on the rest of the pyrenees) has/still is having a great season.
- Central Italy - TOO MUCH SNOW
- Bulgaria - STILL having a fantastic season.

- NW Alps inc much of France, Switzerland and West Austria having a wholly average to poor season in terms of snow depth.
- Central and "Western* (correction should be Eastern) Italian Alps having a mostly poor season in terms of snow depth but still no major closures.

I know there are some exceptions to these observations and yes March was very warm for most of the alps but saying that it's been the worst for many years is a bit extreme.

Maybe it feels like that because the most visited areas by people from this forum fall into the two areas which have struggled. Year on year these areas are the most snowsure (NW Alps especially) and as they haven't been so great this season it is giving people a false conclusion.

A snowHead

@AthersT, I don't think Aosta in general had a "stellar" year. E.g. if you were family skiing in Antagnod (across the valley from Champoluc) I am not sure you'd have had one day that wasn't on machine snow.

But it does go to show that so much of this is enormously "valley" dependant. Small geographic differences can make huge snow differences.

It is, however, the first year where I think altitude really made a noticeable difference, at least in areas that I'm close to.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@under a new name,

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@under a new name, Mine only break up today, other schools were last week. it did not help us this year by them going back to school on Thursday the 5th Jan, at least next year they are off until Monday the 8th.

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@AthersT,

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@AthersT, Aosta definitely not a good year

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@under a new name, OK not in your case but in general.

It is confirmation bias as it is people interpreting information as confirmation of pre-existing hypotheses.
- Poor season in usually the most snowsure areas (NW alps) therefore must be a poor season for the alps/europe.

In truth though thats a large, very popular region outside of the NW alps the season has not been too bad. A generalisation, but not too mental.

After all it is free

@moseyp, Ok strikethrough Aosta.

I still don't think it's confirmation bias, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases but I'm too busy to think about it too deeply (have to get some work done bias).

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I still don't think it's confirmation bias, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases but I'm too busy to think about it too deeply (have to get some work done bias).

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I don't measure it like that, as a general guide if it's a season of higher than average temps and high pressure across Europe much of the time then it's probably what I would call a bad winter. For me anyway

snow reports

It was an odd season in the Arlberg. We were there from late January to early March. There was apparently little/no snow below mid-mountain until just before we arrived. A significant dump preceded our arrival, which pretty much set up the place for the rest of the trip. There were were some snow falls while we were there, but nothing big. I call "big" when the whole upper mountain is closed for at least the morning, which typically requires >40 - 50cm overnight (all things being equal).

The first week to 10 days was really cold, but with bluebird skies. The rest was a mixture, but not particularly cold. At times, the snow would disappear from the garden in front of our apartment and green shoots would appear. The pistes got really icy after the grooming had been skied off. Here I am thinking places like Kandahar and Nasserein. Below mid-mountain, the pistes were generally crunchy in the morning and goop by lunchtime.

The offpiste was variable, but according to our friend and host, if was quite risky out there. It was, to paraphrase him, a year to be conservative and live to ski another year. He has lived in StA for 68 years, so I respect his opinion. That said, we did find sound great offpiste on occassions.

Ohhh, the other thing: it was windy. Much of Geisleger was scoured fairly soon any new snow.

Since we left, they have had good firn, but not the major increases in depth often associated with March. Whilst they have new snow, they have also had regular rain.

So, good year, but not a great year. Would I rather have done something different? No way!!! Happy

You know it makes sense.

@foxtrotzulu, My post referred to the thread title and yes I stand corrected on Aosta.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I think we have to chalk another in the 'adequate' column overall. I was in Zell am See at the end of January and it went from fantastic to good in that week alone and never really got any better again. The snow there is disappearing as fast as it did in spring 2014 after that poor winter. One of these years we'll not have to have threads in this tone..maybe next year....

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I don't see the harm in acknowledging a season for what it has been - poor. No that doesn't mean that individuals' individual trips have sucked or there hasn't been adequate piste cover thanks to snowmaking coverage that is better than ever. I don't know what it is but when you suggest conditions in someone's favourite resort have been sub-optimal you often get a reaction like you've just knocked up their sister/daughter but by any measure a season where you are measuring the number of major storms in the low single digits must count as poor.

Personally I would think the implication is that the bottom would be knocked out of the Xmas/NY pre booked weeks ( to be filled by late bookings as/if real snow arrives. But I suspect the public at large has shorter memories and an ingrained habit of saying - well we're off work/school anyway what else are we going to do - Cluedo at grannies?

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This is a visual illustration (excuse the TERRIBLE editing skills) of how I saw this winter - Red below average to poor, Green average to very good.

I don't have any idea on Scandinavia. So yes much of the alps "suffered" but to answer the thread title/thread drift "Europe" has not had the worst ever season. Just the snow didn't fall in the right places. Hard lines better luck next year. I know I'll still be skiing!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I don't believe the Balkans had a good winter either so I would colour that red

What's the area to the left of Genova, under Mont Blanc?

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I'm kinda pleased for the Greeks that the Peloponnese had such an epic year but in terms of where British skiers actually ski the red blob would get pretty heavy weighting. Italy has been almost freakish this year - places I've never heard of topping the snowfall charts, sometimes tragically.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@moseyp, It was greece I was highlighting. Left of Genoa is meant to symbolise Via Lattea/Piedmont/Queyras where they have had an average to good year.

I think the pattern is quite explainable due to the blocking high we experienced from the start of the season.
Forcing a lower path for the jet stream. Thoughts?

After all it is free

Of course in contrast

@AthersT, yeah but there's ski resorts in more countries than Greece (Montenegro, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia) and they didn't have a great winter either so should probably be red too

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@moseyp, there are also many more ski resorts in Germany, Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia and the Czech Republic and thats before Scandinavia. I am just not going to that degree of detail/level of research. I knew these off the top of my head.

Help!!

Is this the worst ever start to a European ski season?

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