Winter tyres - do I need a spare?

A snowHead

@andymb (OP): I have been musing on this, and an earlier suggestion has merit i.e. buying a 5th winter tyre and rotating its use each year. The issue isn't a legal one, it's practical: if I had a serious problem with one of my winters, then being runflat, it would get me out of the immediate fix and hopefully to somewhere where I could get the tyre replaced. But then I'd want to find a replacement winter, ideally the same product as I already have, and this could be difficult. Because the manufactures build winter tyres mainly in the summer and autumn, as stock for autumn and early winter sales. As winter progresses, there's less and less stock. So if I can carry a spare tyre (not wheel) then I'd just get someone to fit that, and I'd be on my way, rather than either (a) having to take a completely different brand/product or (b) waiting for my replacement to be delivered. I have limited storage space in my convertible, but a tyre - as opposed to a wheel as well) could at least carry stuff inside.

@DrLawn (snowsocks): This has been extensively discussed on other forums and, as you might expect, the responses were mixed. People seemed quite positive about them if they had summers and been able to use them briefly to just get through a short segment of snowy road. Negative feedback came when people used them for longer distances, and/or re-used them at a later date. And some reported that they quickly shredded when used in alternating snow/tarmac/snow conditions. Much the same feedback came regarding the Michelin Easigrips that I keep in the boot of my local runaround (which has winters on as well). The overall conclusion was that they were perhaps good for people in the UK who were very unlikely to hit snow at all, and both easier to fit and heaper than chains, but for Alpine driving they were still not as good as winter tyres on snow, and unsuitable for the mixed tarmac-and-snow conditions you often find in the foothills of the Alps. But I also would be interested to hear from actual users, as it's hard to get a representative idea of their pros/cons.

A snowHead

Hi @mooney058
I had to nip into my local tyre people today (STS Tyre Pros) to pay for a puncture repair.

They were not busy so I had a chat.
They wheeled out what they recommended .. Mitchelin Crossclimate but they don't think its available in my sizes yet.
But its something to check when I've worn these out.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hi @LaForet
Thanks for your input too.
I agree ... I would imagine that the socks are only for those emergency situations where you need to get over the pass before it closes.
+ they are light.
I'm not sure if they are any easier to fit though looking at the video reviews.

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@LaForet, I thought it worth clarifying what I've said about the snowflake symbol protocol.

I've certainly no problem with, as you've described, what this means and the research that has been completed to make the tests valid. It's more the view dispensed on here and other forum that does often get perilously close to hysteria.

It would seem the absolutists offer a position that to even approach your car within their own definition of winter would ultimately result in it careering around Europe, flattening various nationalities in its path, ending up in a pile of scrap somewhere beside a ski village if it's not fitted with tires having a snowflake symbol. A sense of reality and consideration of the law in the country through which you intend to travel must have some influence in helping to make a competent decision. Windofchange offered an entirely realistic view in my opinion.

This marking has been effective since 2012 I believe. People travelled around Europe for decades prior to this and made entirely competent arrangements as to their tires and safety.
I can appreciate it's made a logical and presentable standard that is easily used, particularly by people who have very little technical experience with which to judge the tires they're about to buy. There's no problem I can see with that, I'm in no way opposing that as a competent standard.
But your own analysis when "all weather tires" reach this standard, would suggest it doesn't fulfill adequately what you claim of it. The statement of all weather tires not being as good as winter tires I can see on a technical level as being true. It just undermines your and mooney's confidence in the snowflake symbol.
Either the tires marked are suitable as they have indeed passed the criteria laid out for them to receive that rating (implying they are what the user needs) or by definition that standard has been set too low. It can't be both ways to the ultimate customer.

I agree with many of your statements, with your industry experience invaluable in giving poster's on here a technical view of what they are trying to achieve. It's not your comments I think are contentious, just that I think something like this should reasonably be discussed to draw out a sensible conclusion for those asking advice.

Your detail about carrying a spare tire only I thought of doing in our VW because as you point out it will take up very little real space (I thought wrapping it in industrial shrink wrap would stop the luggage smelling of rubber) and allow at least an emergency replacement to take place.
Some friends of ours ran into exactly as you describe, a supply chain drop out. BMW 5 series touring, middle of the night, mid France, February, puncture to the rear tire, run flat winter. They got it off the auto route safely, repair after running deemed unsafe. There was no replacement to that spec available so they had to wait for one shipped in from Poland I think, their insurers had to place them in accommodation for the next night while the tire made its way there. All for a simple puncture.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Definitions of M+S and Snowflake+Mountain tyres are in this PDF.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Some all season tyres were designed primarily as winter tyres (Snowflake marking) but in testing they found that they gave reasonable performance and wear levels in summer temperatures. They were then marketed as an all season tyre. I'm on my third set of Nokian's (pretty much 3 versions of the same tyre) and can confirm that they have worked as advertised.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Can someone remind me why winter tyres should be fitted the right way round, and how you tell which way to fit them on the wheel/car please

After all it is free

**There are a few multi directional tyres like the Nexen Winguard WT1, which have a symmetrical tread pattern.

So don't spend 20 minutes in the dark, cold and snow ( like me ) looking for directional arrows on tyres that don't have them Smile

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

@WindOfChange, Laughing

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snow reports

Yes, quite a lot of tyres are directional and have to be fitted so they rotate one way. Usually, there is a clear arrow and/or text ('Forwards' etc.) on the sidewall. As you might expect, these Pirelli Sottozero S3 are one such:

So a tyre can go on either side of the car, as long as it's pointing in the right direction. But .....
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You may also see the term 'Outside' or similar on the sidewall, which is self-explanatory. But can be confusing, as in the following example of an asymmetric tyre, where the tread pattern is not the same across the tyre:

Because if you lay out the tyres in their relative position (above), you realise that the inner tread pattern faces one direction on the right, but the opposite direction on the left, which seems counter-intuitive. Surely the grooves should face in only one direction, otherwise they won't disperse water properly? In this case, apparently not - they're designed to move water just as well, whichever way they're facing. They are not directional. Part of the reason for this is that if the grooves were directional on an asymmetric tyre, then you'd need a Left version and a Right version of the tyre in each size. There are in fact some products that are like this, although it's more common in summer tyres than winters.
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So whether a tyre is directional is independent of whether it's asymmetric. The main thing is that the sidewall should be labelled with the information needed to fit it properly. Unless it's neither, in which case looking at the the tread will usually confirm that there's no obvious direction to the tread pattern and that (like the S3) it's symmetric.
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@tannowagon {saying that you wouldn't drive with 3 winters and one summer ...} I'm just offering advice as it would be given by the vehicle manufacturer or tyre manufacturer. Which is that you must never mix winters and summers. My vehicle Owner's Manual is absolutely explicit on this. If you were involved in an accident under these conditions, even if it's not your fault, then knowing insurance companies and the police, you can expect to be hung out to dry if they realise.

I think you have to be careful about comparing 3xWinter+1xSummer to 3xSummer+1xSpacesaver. Spacesavers are designed to work with corresponding summers and while they degrade handling, they should be OK if you keep to the 'gentle driving at low speed' rule. How the former will behave is a total unknown and untested combination that's deprecated by manufacturers. I appreciate that if someone is very careful and doesn't drive far then the odds of having a problem are likely very low, but for my vehicle, given the manual says absolutely not to do it, I'd have no excuse to give to the police/insurers if I was in an accident. I don't think this is 'ridiculous' - it's a matter of analysing probabilities, risks, and outcome: I'm not prepared to countenance the outcome however low the risk, but clearly you would be, which is fine. The reader can judge for themselves.

All my Nokians have been non directional.

You know it makes sense.

I thought the intention of 3pmsf symbol was to simplify the whole process to the consumer regarding tire choice and suitability. If the manufacturers make their choices so dependant on various attributes that involve so many constraints, it's no wonder the layman eventually feels bewildered.

Certainly you should be able to buy them, fit them and then go about doing what you wanted to do with your car.

@Scarpa, as you indicate, they should be as uncomplicated as possible to the consumer.

For those that want to get further involved, they'd research past the consumer stuff and perhaps assure themselves of exactly what they are buying.

@tangowaggon, that's one of the most true statements on this thread, intelligence, understands, compromised (hope you don't mind as I've just used a few of your words) AND drives accordingly. It must form a very high percentage of what needs to be carried out to complete a safe journey in adverse conditions.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I have just bought some Nokians and they are directional..

A snowHead

@andy1234 Directional tyres usually have a tread pattern that will disperse water along the grooves better when rotating 'forwards', so to speak. If you look at @LaForet's S3s above, you can see how this would be so, because the pattern moves water from the centre outwards as it rolls over the tarmac. If it was on the other (wrong) way round, it would tend to move water to the centre, where it would have nowhere to go. Additionally, winter tyres aim to trap snow in the grooves and sipes for better snow-on-snow traction, but they don't want to build-up too much snow on the tread, so the tread design uses rotational force to throw excess snow off. If you look closely, some tread patterns get deeper towards the edge, to enhance water and snow dispersal, particularly the former.

A snowHead

@msej449, @Alastair Pink, thanks guys, off to see what gives Very Happy

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wow....I had no idea that what seemed to me to be such a "basic" question would provoke so much discussion, so thanks to all.
I ended up getting 5 tyres (my spare is full size) because due to the discount that the supplier was able to offer, the difference between 4 and 5 tyres was £30.
The tyres are non directional so should the worst happen (touch wood!) that makes things a little easier.

thanks again, andy

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Well, a thread that persuaded me to change my mind - contrary to my initial suggestion (don't bother with a spare), I have just ordered a spare Pirelli S3 to match my others. The dealer said that this was the last one in stock, and I'm still having to wait 4 working days as well. So getting a replacement later in the season would probably be difficult, let alone if I was stranded in France/Alps. A happy Christmas to everyone and I now fell ready for the drive to the Alps. But then what about the various snow chain options .....?

Help!!

Winter tyres - do I need a spare?

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