Winter tyres - do I need a spare?

A snowHead

@mooney058, I'm no expert but quote from "Honest John" in the Torygraph "Michelin CrossClimate tyres are ‘3 Peaks Mountain Snowflake’ (3PMSF) certified so meet the standard for snow tyres in all European countries.", and from Evo magazine "Winter certification is shown with the three-peak mountain snowflake symbol."

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@mooney058, I have Michelin CrossClimates, and can confirm that they have the three peak & snowflake symbol on them.

Having only fitted them in March, I've limited experience of their winter handling - but they have been good so far on cold slushy mountain roads and on warm roads this summer.

No space in the car for a spare, though. Didn't think that through when I bought the car but it certainly is a factor now.

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I have Michelin CrossClimates too. They performed very well driving up to Tasch for Zermatt on snow covered roads last January. Very quiet running tyre.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I've just been out to look at my tyres in the dark.

They were supposed to be cross climate or all weather tyres when I specked the car ...

Just had a look and they are "michelin latitude tour hp m+s"
and they only have an M+S marking on them.

So really they are only good for parking in Waitrose or Marks & Spencers.
I'm a bit disappointed .. I'll have to fly with EasyJet rather than do my stuff up the Tuxertal

Puzzled

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I have run Nokians all year round for the last 5 years. They were designed as a full winter tyre but testing showed decent summer performance so are marketed as a winter spec all season. Found prety good performance, get about 22-24,000 miles out of a set and they have got me through many seasons in the Alps.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@DrLawn, the cross climate may not be available in your size / fitment. Do you have the full size specs available, and for which vehicle.

In some cases I'd certainly argue that m+s has the potential and abilities to fulfill what you're asking.

There is some considerable hysteria about being snowflake marked currently but it hasn't existed that long as a means of judging a product's suitability. I can understand it's simplification in being able to quantify certain aspects in relating one product type to another, but it's by no means absolute.

Many people don't even realise that whichever legend is written on the side of a tire, if it comes to very hard packed snow or ice, then very little short of a studded tire will offer much grip. Especially on steep gradient. That's why chains are also advised as a catch all regardless of tires used.

After all it is free

@ski3, hysteria? It is exactly m+s crappy options that led to introduction of the new marking for winter tyres.

Re hard packed snow and ice - your assertions are absolute. Besides studded tyres there are Nordic winter tyres that are very good in this regard. Chains are usefull in a very limited set of situations.

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The context of ice / hard pack, I'm relating to taking a car from the UK to the alps, that journey would usually preclude using an ice equipped tire. There aren't many options for a journey mix of that type that may end up on those surfaces at the destination, to carry chains is one way of adapting if necessary.

M+S has only ever referred to a tread type and not a tire type as I understand it. I don't deny that a simplified system is more workable to general consumer market but it can't take away the ability of some tires that would be suitable howsoever marked on the sidewall.

Even newly marked "winter "tires are only what some people call summer tires with an alternative tread compound and pattern.

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It's decades since I had a flat, and I would not pay for or carry a 5th wheel. Maybe you can get one as an option, but it's not for me.

The shoes analogy doesn't in any way offer a valid comparison.

For example a v rated tire carcass in a specific size will have exactly the structural requirements to obtain that level of performance in respect to load and deformation whether it's ultimately coated with either a winter compound and pattern or a summer compound and pattern. They even bond the tread area onto a prepared carcass which can be identical.

The two shoes you quote are entirely different apart from the shoe shape and don't in any way illustrate your contention.

The mountain and snowflake symbol offers a minimum performance criteria to the consumer. It doesn't mean it can't be out performed by something else, just an assurance to the consumer that it has been tested against an established performance measure and been found above that level.

Regarding black ice comments, that's not what I've claimed. A properly ice equipped tire would specifically use studs, and you wouldn't travel on studs generally to reach the alps from here. Again, chains give an option in an alpine environment over and above any tire not stud equipped.

You know it makes sense.

@ski3, I am sorry but you are going in circles - the structural elements of a same sized winter and summer tyres might indeed be similar/identical. The thread is different in both. The heat generated will be differen too, same as pressure build-up and resistance to tear. So yes, they are all round black circles - but they are completely different products.

A proper nordic winter tyre is quire reliable on ice, no need for studs. Chains offer very little over proper winter tyres and only better in deep deep snow.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Winter tyres - use them all year round now. The fronts last about 3/4 the time a summer tyre would and the rears last a very long time. ( sure i swap them around to even out wear) So, no storage issues or and no additional costs for 5 rims etc. I can't see hardly any difference in fuel cost either plus supreme wet weather grip performance all year round. Admittedly the motor's not a supercar ! On the odd UK cold or especially a snowy day, i get about without any problems. In Austria last year, driving up/ down snowy and iced winding mountain lanes (sometimes at 30 degrees elevation) i was completely sold on how brilliant they were. NO SPINNING WHEELS! Yes, i took chains as well but was amazed at the grip just these tyres gave me...no, i was staggered actually!
Like many on here i use mytyres - their prices are often -35% compared to the usual highstreet retailers - i run with a full spare but as winter tyres are directional, there's always a chance i'll have the puncture on the wrong side meaning i'd have to run the tyre the wrong way around - so i'd have to crawl to a garage in that situation. UK tyre fitter would put the spare for the nearside - so off abroad, get it reversed around. Punctures often occur on the nearside.

Running on Goodyear UltraGrip 9, nice and quiet as well.

A snowHead

A snowHead

@ski3
I had a feeling we were going to get some mileage out of this thread!
Its one of those subjects we can all have an opinion on as was stated right at the beginning.
I look upon a drive to the alps in winter as an adventure, it certainly was back in the early 70s for me.
I remember driving down in a really old VW Beetle with 6v lights, the windscreen washers were powered by the air pressure from the spare tyre.
Hang on ... I'm losing it a bit here .. the windscreen washers were actually a Fairy Liquid bottle we had to reach around and squirt on the windscreen with.
Which was fine till you forgot to take into the hotel overnight to keep it from freezing!

Oh we don't know how lucky we are now!
Heated seats, heated steering wheel, all wheel drive, headlight washers and a heater that works rather than filling the car with exhaust fumes.

Anyway...

I've just been out to look at the tyres again in the daylight.
Its still hard to read them but,
They are Mitchellin Latitude Tour HP M+S
255/55R 18 on the rears
235/55R 18 on the fronts.
I don't have a spare, I could have had an inflatable emergency tyre, I'll only regret that when I get that puncture.
There are no snowflake logos on the tyres but a logo that I think implies that they run quieter.

There is a similar thread to this on another forum:
http://www.macanownersclub.co.uk/forum/winter-tyres-from-opc_topic1272_page1.html
That has run to seven pages over the years as well.

I remember slithering backwards down a steep hill in the Bregenzerwald on very new snow in a Golf GTi on summer tyres, there was nothing I could do about it. Luckily there was no traffic and the armco was well padded with snow.

I did treat an old Renault GTL to a set of Nokia winter tyres a few years later when I worked in Southern Germany and they were great fun on a crappy car.

Then I shod another GTi on Vederstien winter tyres which were noisy but really grippy, but I still had to get the chains out on a few occasions.

To sum up, I think these tyres will do the job despite not being full fat winter tyres, I think I am a sensible driver,
and I'm always going to take a set of chains for the rear wheels with me when I go to the mountains.
And most important, I'm going to practice putting them on,
rather than trying to work out how they fit when you are in a blizzard in the dark close to the end of a very long and weary drive.
Perhaps I might invest in an inflatable spare too.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@DrLawn, Michellin Latitude Tour HP is not a winter tyre. So if there is no snow/ice you should be OK Smile

But if it does snow, I would not like to be in a viscinity when you are driving up or especially down the mountain - a repeat of your Golf GTi experience in Austria is quite likely, especially with such wide tyres. I too run big tyres on my summer set-up (245/45/19 front and 275/40/19 rear) but my winter set is 225/60/17 on all 4.
With the weather forecast as it is, you should be fine Smile

but if you expect some snow for your holiday destination, I trully hope we are not driving to the same destination ... I just hate when my wife lectures me for swearing at those ignorant users of road that block all the traffic. I also have no symphaty when I see a car with summer tyres on a side - only because I had quite a few brown trousers allerts when I see car without control sliding into me when I am traveling with my familly - and each time I had to rely on my winter tyres to help in a situation.

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If you have no snowflake on your tyres then French police may stop you going up the mountain in bad weather (and you may need to show chains as well). The snowflake may not be perfect, but at least it gets you past the gendarmes.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@geeo, I was expecting reaction like that. Yes, I notice cars/tyres while in a resort, indeed quite often 50% of cars with UK registration are on summer tyres (including fancy range rovers). I am not deluded. But I could not accept ignorance as an acceptable answer.

I do not dislike tyres - winter, summer or all-season. Tyres neeed to be adequate for conditions. I have +25y driving experience and driven cars in areas that cover conditions from Lisbon to Moscow, UAE to Finnland. My dad was a truck and bus driver all his life. I have driven cars with all-season tyres. I was a member of an auto club and taken courses for perfomance and winter driving. I have driven on roads, deserts, mountains and frozen lakes. I like cars - it is one of my hobbies. But a car could also be dangerious - check stats how many people are killed on a road every day. Most of those accidents could be easily be avoided. So if somebody is risking my life by thinking 'oh I will be all right' by taking 1.5 tones of metal and pushing it into me - I have no symphaty for them. I do not stop lecturing at every car on the side of the road, maybe I should rolling eyes

After all it is free

@ski3 {In some cases I'd certainly argue that m+s has the potential and abilities to fulfill what you're asking.}

I'm puzzled by this. I worked for Pirelli for some years in both Development and manufacturing and what you state here is counter to what I learned. If what you mean is that an M+S tyre as a spare is better than nothing then, ummm, that's a tricky judgement to make (see below re lesser of two evils).

{There is some considerable hysteria about being snowflake marked currently but it hasn't existed that long as a means of judging a product's suitability. I can understand it's simplification in being able to quantify certain aspects in relating one product type to another, but it's by no means absolute.}

I wouldn't say that looking for a well-established and rigorous industry standard - which has existed for some time - should be considered 'hysteria'. And my understanding is that the criteria are absolute. Perhaps what you mean is that it doesn't tell you everything, which would be true: Like summer tyres, winters tyre characteristics vary between manufacturers and within their product range. So for example, the Pirelli Sottozero Serie-II comes close to summer levels of handling on a performance car, at the cost of snow traction, whereas the Sottozero 3 gives better snow traction, but doesn't handle as well in warmer conditions. And so on .

@zikonp As above, I worked for Pirelli, so I'm talking about the general recommendations that a manufacturer would give out. But perhaps I didn't express myself well. What I meant is that having one summer and three winters is dangerous and a risk, while not having a spare is very inconvenient and a real hassle, so if this was the OP's choice, I'd recommend the latter as the lesser of two evils. I've no doubt that people might get away with this arrangement especially in fairly benign conditions and if they were very careful. But if you had an accident, then any investigator would point to this as something you did that you are told explicitly not to do by a manufacturer.

@geeo I do look at the tyres and I do live part-time in the Alps and they are predominantly winters. In fact, it's common for cars in our village to have their winters on in the summer. However, the same problem applies for many French and Dutch visitors as it does for UK ones, namely the cost of putting winters on when they spend only a small period in the mountains. Winter tyres are mandatory in Germany and effectively so in Austria. Locals in our village get very annoyed when visiting holidaymakers from NL and GB block the roads for everyone else because they don't have winters while everyone else does, and haven't twigged it's time to put the chains on.

Personally, I can see the attraction of all-season tyres especially if you simply don't encounter Alpine conditions very often. But the trouble with them is, as I said, that they're not as good as summers in summer and not as good as winters in winter. Put this together with the variation between brands and you don't really know how, and under what circumstances, and to what degree they're inferior. So I'd always rather have the best for the conditions than the 'not worst' if you see what I mean.

Uhh why did i bother replying, should know better Shocked

, some folk with winter tyres will still crash and some folk with summer tyres will manage all winter without issue.
I thought it went without saying winter tyres are best in the winter ans summer tyres for summer, what s shame the tyres are only a small part of the ability of the car to make it to it's destination.
It's just like the fat/thin ski in powder argument, and like most on here, pointless.

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Your English is fine

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@mooney058, I may disagree with you on some aspects of this discussion, but my second language skills wouldn't stand up to any scrutiny that yours does, it's fine how you've written.

Now how about helmets...

You know it makes sense.

Most winter tyres have a specific rotational direction related to the thread pattern so really even with one winter spare the chances are 50-50 that the rotational direction will be the reverse of what one needs, it a get you out of trouble solution at best . Again don't know what would be the legal position nor the roadholding with 3 correctly mounted and one reversed.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Summer helmets, or winter helmets ... ?

A snowHead

I thought I'd ask someone that would know definitively, so I put the question to God.

He (at least I think it's him) calls me fairly frequently, nice chap actually. He usually asks, perhaps insists is a better description, that I've had an accident. Further he seems to know for sure of an accident one of my household members may be about to have sometime in the future! Hence my assertion that it is God calling me. Now I don't know where or how he got hold of my number, I didn't even realise he was from the Punjab! Anyway, I thought as he was so interested in my or family risk in our daily lives I felt it appropriate that I could impose apon him and ask this very question about winter tires. He felt it was possibly relevant, and showing great concern, asked if there would be any whiplash injuries resulting from failure to use whatever it was I was asking about. Pressed a little further, he hung up the phone, how very very rude. So even that source drew a blank.

Maybe I should have asked about helmets in an attempt to clear that up as well. I expect he may call again, it's usually a couple of weeks taken to get round to me, so I'll get the pertinent questions ready so I don't inconvenience him next time he calls.

Failing that, I could use a call back service I suppose.

Or engage the services of a private investigator, Peter Peterson perhaps, but you'd need a Joe Lycett reference to get that obscure connection. Very Happy

A snowHead

Hi @ski3 I've got a different God to yours, I think.
I've just come back from visiting him this morning.
They reminded me that its his birthday next Sunday!
If I were wise I would order some myrrh from Amazon

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@DrLawn, I thought you posted an entirely reasonable question about the tires you've been supplied with, it is though a little difficult to offer a balanced view with so many emotional, fact marginal theories being thrown out that may not be ultimately of any assistance.

I have read the thread posted via your link to the Macan discussion and would offer the following; the tire sizes you've posted need to have another part of the sidewall information to see product availability.
That would be expressed as something like 94V. This tells you the carcass load rating that is required by the manufacturer's spec. That part is the numerical element, and would apply to whichever tire you want to use. The V in that example is the maximum sustainable speed range of the tire.

Without that additional spec it's difficult to see just which tires are available for your car. It does seem to produce some odd stumbling points though. The use of 55 as a profile for two different widths fitted to the same diameter rims of 18inch appears to firstly narrow the manufactures supplying these tire sizes. In addition, it's hard to see if a snowflake marked tire is available, in those sizes and at the speed rating required to fulfill the original specifications.

The first step you'd need to take is to see if the full original spec tires are available for the car and marked with a snowflake symbol. If say they are only available at a reduced speed rating, then I could quite see the factory not wishing to supply a vehicle that is capable of a higher speed than the tires it would be fitting. The conflict in liability is obvious.

They have supplied the tires you've got though. So a question to them as to the intended use of these would seem to be one way of finding out if they through their specification are by default suitable for the use to which you wish to put them.

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I wouldn't worry to much there is bug all snow anyway Happy

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Hi @ski3 Thanks for the sensible response, and please don't worry too much about it.

I would love to drive this car down to alps, but I cant see it happening, it's just too expensive compared with flying.

I wont be shelling out for a set of "Perelli Scorpions" for the odd occasion when it snows in Hertfordshire.
I doubt in the local police will be looking for snow flakes on the sides of tyres when it snows just 1cm.
And all the ditches will be full of inexperienced drivers Facebooking each other.

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To get back to the poster's original question, about legality and practise.
If France the police don't care what markings your tyre has because snow or winter tyres are not compulsory.
Chains or socks are mandatory when the blue B26 sign is shown. Sometimes you see underneath this sign that snow tyres are permitted, but you still have a legal obligation to have chains in the vehicle.

Gendarmes my let you continue your journey without fitting them in this instance ( if you have 4x4) , but you must have them.

There was a move to mandate winter tyres following the car-neige ( see what I did there ) on the N90 in previous winters, but this was resisted by the prefectures of the region.

So legally, have whatever spare you like in France, but make sure you have chains or socks marked with NF or CE.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Even if never used the max shelf life of a tyre is typically around 10 years.

After all it is free

A few years down the line just keep one of your winter tyres back as a spare (make sure it has +4mm of tread for Germany / Austria) when changing them and your problem is solved Toofy Grin

I wonder if Snow Socks would be an alternative to chains ?

I've been looking around on the web, and the reviews keeping talking about them as an alternative to winter tyres rather than chains.
I would have thought they were in fact a set of "soft chains".

Tell me I'm wrong.
I want to hear from people that have actually used Socks in anger.

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@DrLawn, alternatives to winter tyres? No, because (a) socks are not meant to be driven on asphalt, (b) they do not last long, (c) they would not be predictable if you have to brake hard, especiallynon hard surfaces. So yes, they have some application, but it is not an alternative to winter tyres, only to chains. And appologies, I have never used them (because of winter tyres).

Help!!

Winter tyres - do I need a spare?

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