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Winter tyres - do I need a spare?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Will I be ok keeping my normal (summer) spare or is it standard practice/legal requirement to buy 5 tyres so that they all have the same tread pattern?
Many thanks, andy
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I guess not as a lot of new cars come without spare tyres at all (not even space savers these days)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Best of luck finding a space-saver winter tyre too.
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There's no point in carrying the summer spare if you have winter tyres on, as it would be potentially extremely dangerous to drive with 3x winters and 1x summer. Most people don't get a 5th winter spare: if they are non-runflat tyres then carry a repair kit, and if they're runflats then you'll at least be able to get off the autoroute to somewhere safe. My 2016 car has Runflats and I don't carry any spare at all, summer or winter.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In my view, you can keep the summer spare for emergency winter use only, as long as you are fully aware that it is only to be used for getting your car off the highway to the closest garage.

It can indeed be quite dangerous to have much worse grip on one tyre. So only for slow, cautious driving to the closest garage.
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I have a spare winter for my van but i only just got that, i have always had a summer tyre as a spare until then.
I have also driven about with that summer spare on for the last 3 months Shocked on the back, so have had the dreaded 3 winter 1 summer tyre combo and i managed to survive, although iv'e never used that combo in the snow but i would have in an emergency.
Not sure on the legality of it tbh, it would have failed it's MOT like that.
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Quote:

There's no point in carrying the summer spare if you have winter tyres on, as it would be potentially extremely dangerous to drive with 3x winters and 1x summer

strongly disagree. I had to change a wheel last spring, with a flat tyre. I have a full size spare. I did drive cautiously as it was a summer tyre but nobody can tell me that waiting on an isolated mountain road as it got dark would have been safer!!

That was the second time in three years I'd had a a puncture problem on that stretch of road - the other was a Swiss hired car with a stupid can of gunk and a big gash in the tyre. When I bought my last two cars ability to carry a full size spare was a key criterion.
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Potentially dangerous is you treat it as a winter tyres but why would you be so stupid?

No, you don't need a spare winter.
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thanks for the speedy replies everyone
my summer spare is full size

please don't take this the wrong way because I truly appreciate the replies, they just made me smile and cluelessly decide that I might or might not get a spare, or maybe both Laughing
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pam w wrote:
That was the second time in three years I'd had a a puncture problem on that stretch of road - the other was a Swiss hired car with a stupid can of gunk and a big gash in the tyre. When I bought my last two cars ability to carry a full size spare was a key criterion.


I recently bought a new car and I absolutely refuse to consider one which only has a can of gunk supplied. The car I bought came with a space saver tyre, which I will grudgingly accept, but I'd much rather have a full size spare!
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Keep the summer spare, use it in an emergency
You wont die using it (probably, hopefully)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@andymb, You asked about winter tyres on SnowHeads, so you are destined to have more contradicting answers than the number of people answering. Toofy Grin

But I think the gist of it is: keep the summer spare, but use caution and common sense.
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Quote:

Best of luck finding a space-saver winter tyre too.


I bought one from Mytyres - a winter tyre on a 16" steel wheel, to give the same rolling radius as my 18" (now) winter tyres. Total price just over £100.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
If you have 1 spare winter tyre ...
Perhaps you should carry 2 .... just in case.
Perhaps even 3 ... to be sure.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
My FIAT had a space saver wheel but the space was perfectly big enough for a full size wheel, so we bought one.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
If you are regularly going to the alps .. why not treat yourself to a set of all weather tyres.
Best of Both worlds, or is it the worst of both worlds?
This will start a row.
I ordered my new car with the zero cost option of all weather tyres and they perform very well so far,
I just cant wait till we get some fresh new snow here in North Herts to try them out in the slippery stuff.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

Keep the summer spare, use it in an emergency


think i'll go for this option....at least I'll have been half sensible
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DrLawn wrote:
If you are regularly going to the alps .. why not treat yourself to a set of all weather tyres.
Best of Both worlds, or is it the worst of both worlds?
This will start a row.
I ordered my new car with the zero cost option of all weather tyres and they perform very well so far,
I just cant wait till we get some fresh new snow here in North Herts to try them out in the slippery stuff.


worst of both
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We live @ 1250m on a private road where we normally leave before the snow plow comes.
This winter are running the following

DUSTER 4X4 (2015) --NEXEN Winguard Wt1 215/65R16 (new in November 2016)
Fiat Punto (2014) - Cooper Weather-Master S/T3 175/65 R14 , Studded (new in November 2016)
Defender 110 (1987) - COOPER Discoverer At 235/85R16 (new in 2006)

BUT we have already had 2 gotchas this year:

One of the Punto studded tyres had a deflation incident as the rim was from an older punto, and was a bit warped.
We put the standard spare on which is a UNIROYAL Rain Expert 3 185/65R15 ( from april 2016). Spare is slightly larger, and NOT a winter / studded tyre.
Running 14" wheels leaves a bit more room for the snow chains than the stock 15".
The car handled fine on the snow ( but was driven carefully), my wife noticed that the ABS did not really like the size difference, and would kick in much more than needed, as well as putting the warning light on after 15 mins. The light would go out when the car was restarted. As a rule we do not drive fast on mountain roads and avoid using the brakes, but the traction and handling was fine running this complete mismatch . It was only for 4 days as we got the studded tyre fixed as soon as. So whilst I would not recommend it, from experience running a standard spare was ok.

The other gotcha was the Duster.The Nexens came on a new set of alloys, so they dont rust in the snow. I was offered the opportunity of adding the option of the fancy tps valves for an additional 200 EUR . Given the cost was already around the 700 EUR mark, I passed up this opportunity. So 15 mins after setting off, the dash board lit up like the proverbial Xmas tree. Tyre pressure warning ! The pressures are actually fine, BUT in France, new cars since NOV 2014 must have the TPS warning system by law. So if you do not fit rims with the TPS valves you get this annoying warning.
To be fair to Dacia, there is a button on he end of the stalk which you can push and hold for 5 seconds which turns the warning off, only for it to come back 15 mins later ( maybe they saw this one coming).

For the record the 1987 Defender does not have abs or fancy TPS systems and is just dandy. Smile
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Quote:

worst of both

I don't think that is true actually. We have summers and winters but I think if you dont use winters you are better of with all condition tyres than summers in the UK. Car mfers supply with summers (and space saver wheel) to minimise cost AND maximise fuel efficiency in the test.
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WindOfChange wrote:
One of the Punto studded tyres had a deflation incident as the rim was from an older punto, and was a bit warped.
We put the standard spare on which is a UNIROYAL Rain Expert 3 185/65R15 ( from april 2016). Spare is slightly larger, and NOT a winter / studded tyre.
Running 14" wheels leaves a bit more room for the snow chains than the stock 15".
The car handled fine on the snow ( but was driven carefully), my wife noticed that the ABS did not really like the size difference, and would kick in much more than needed, as well as putting the warning light on after 15 mins. The light would go out when the car was restarted. As a rule we do not drive fast on mountain roads and avoid using the brakes, but the traction and handling was fine running this complete mismatch . It was only for 4 days as we got the studded tyre fixed as soon as. So whilst I would not recommend it, from experience running a standard spare was ok.


When you put the summer spare on Punto - was it on front or rear? Especialy with studded tyres you should not mix it on front for a FWD. If it was (1) on the rear (2) while driving real slow/carefully and just because (3) it is a light car - you can go from point A to point B. But since most of braking power comes to front wheels - having a studded winter tyre (or just a regular winter tyre) and a summer tyre is really a bad bad combo.
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I would think a skinny space saver spare summer tyre with three winters would behave much better on snow than a fat standard spare summer tyre?
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jedster wrote:
Quote:

worst of both

I don't think that is true actually. We have summers and winters but I think if you dont use winters you are better of with all condition tyres than summers in the UK. Car mfers supply with summers (and space saver wheel) to minimise cost AND maximise fuel efficiency in the test.


In summer you can use whatever you like - winter, summer or all-weather tyres. Tyre and car performace will depend on a car (size/weight), speeds and driving style. Fiat Punto of Fiesta would not result in much difference if driven at slow/city speeds without aggresive acceleration/braking. At heigher speeds and bigger or more performance vehicles - the difference is noticeble in performance and tyre life shortens significantly.

In winter conditions - all-weather tyres do not perform the same way as real winter tyres (mountain and snowflake symbol, not just a "m+s"), especially in mountains. the OP asked about a trip to mountains, not the UK.

Car manufacturers also supply summer windscreen wash with a new car - but it makes sense to put a winter edition of a screen wash once you drive in areas where it drops below 0.
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@mooney058, the "new" all weather tyres are snowflake marked I believe. Really they seem to be a half summer tyre and half winter tyre stuck together.
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It was on the front. I intended to swap it with a rear one if the car was difficult to drive.
I descended 20 KM to see what it was like, and then back up again. Other than the abs kicking in a bit more than normal, it was perfectly drive-able.
When I got the car home, I was gonna change the spare for one of last years studded tyres, but TBH it was dark, very cold and snowy so I could not be arsed. Over the next 3 days I did about 280KM without problems. The snow line was at about 1000m, so most of the driving was on asphalt, but over the 4 days there would have been about 15KM on the snow. The other observation is that the Cooper weather master is the noisiest studded tyre I have ever driven in 12 years. Although its snow grip was really good.

I agree with all the excellent points you make about that combination, and had plans to remediate if necessary, but sometimes you just think "lets suck it and see".

To add to your points, that even with very sub-optimal winter / summer combinations you can probably get yourself to the nearest garage or somewhere safe to spend the night, so long as you understand and drive within the limitations of your vehicle.
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under a new name wrote:
@mooney058, the "new" all weather tyres are snowflake marked I believe. Really they seem to be a half summer tyre and half winter tyre stuck together.


as I said - "it all depends". Just like skis - you can ski both 71 in powder or 115 on piste - it is doable in principle because it is still a plank of wood. But stiffness, camber etc affect float in soft or edge hold on firm surfaces ...

Tyre is a mechanical thing affected by temperatures, preassure, load - there are now very advanced compounds, but different weather and road conditions, different loads and speeds suggest that the same product can not perform equally well in +30 and -10 degrees when it comes to keeping 1.5-2 tonnes object moving at 60-160 km/h or stopping from 60-160 speeds to 0 and behaving in the same way. Despite all the marketing - it is just not happening. Local conditions and specific situation play a far more significant role. Here in Belgium I could survie with all-weather tyres. But OP asked about a ski trip.

The point is that tyre companies can now produce winter tyres that could behave OK'ish in summer conditions. Even the same winter tyre model from the same company has different speed ratings - what might be OK to use in UK's summers, might not be adequate and safe while driving in summer on DE autobahns Smile
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DrLawn wrote:
If you are regularly going to the alps .. why not treat yourself to a set of all weather tyres.


Because A) you're fooling yourself into a false sense of security and B) you are not fooling the authorities. "All weather tyres" (misnomer) are not an adequate substitute for winter tyres. They're not particularly safe and no country mandating the use of winter tyres will accept "all weather tyres".

For all practical purposes, all weather tyres are summer tyres.
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SkiingDad wrote:
DrLawn wrote:
If you are regularly going to the alps .. why not treat yourself to a set of all weather tyres.


Because A) you're fooling yourself into a false sense of security and B) you are not fooling the authorities. "All weather tyres" (misnomer) are not an adequate substitute for winter tyres. They're not particularly safe and no country mandating the use of winter tyres will accept "all weather tyres".

For all practical purposes, all weather tyres are summer tyres.


if I check one of my fav winter tyre producer, Nokian, they also have an all-weather tyre https://www.nokiantyres.com/tyres/passenger-car/all-weather/ while in reality if you take a closer look it is a winter tyre rather than a summer tyre. I would then rather question their summer tyre attributes (I would assume Nokian all-weather would be better than most chinese 'true winter' tyres - so again it is very relative). So this nokian all-weather has a higher speed index, but for my car it would not even be an option as they do not produce it in the relevant size. When I look at a thread pattern - that would not be OK for my style of drving in summer or adequate for the weight of my car. While it might be perfect on a Fiesta for UK summer conditions.

As @WindOfChange, put it - sometimes it is indeed a call you have to make knowing local conditions (it is much better when locals are making this call and not visitors who are not used to either local conditions or do not know traffic situation on a particular stretch).

There are also a few youtube videos of folks "skiing" on summer pastures, Mount Etna in summer - everything is possible Smile
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I'd always carry a spare if there's a means to do so, whatever tire was on it, and use it with care to get the car to a safe place if it's needed in conditions that may not suit that tire.
As previously posted, being able to resolve a punctured tire anywhere in a journey holds a whole bunch of convenience to you. Even if you then have to go and buy a new winter tire to replace a damaged one while out there. It gives you options to work on.
We've used our VW over the last ten years travelling to the alps, it has no spare or space for one which makes me nervous as to the effects of a puncture.
I maintain and inspect them (I'll take them all off and clean inspect the wheels and tires prior to skiing) to make sure I've not missed anything and have always, so far, been ok. But I'd still carry a spare if I could.
The only time it's had a puncture was in the UK and that was a cut to the inside sidewall of a front tire, not repairable with tire sealant so instantly immobile. It's not a nice feeling. I was due back to collect my kids from school, even that schedule was at risk as the tire shop it was taken to had no tire in that size, we had to fit a part worn temporarily to get me going, then sort it later.

Any schedule you have can be completely stuffed depending on the time and location of occurrence, and if you've a family a stuck out into the middle of nowhere, it just gets worse.

Take the spare, any spare.
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Wooooooo hwooooooooooo, this is the ghost of punctures past...............t...... a........ k...........e. tha. spaaaaaaaare. Very Happy
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 Poster: A snowHead
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http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/All-Season-Tyres-How-Do-They-Stack-Up.htm
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@mooney058,
Interesting... Nokian Weatherproof is not even sold in Finland, were Nokian is based and certainly the number 1 brand. The conspiracy theorist might argue that this is because Nokian wants all Finnish cars to have two sets of tyres.
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We also have a VW with no spare wheel. Apparently the repair kit is pretty useless so I assume we'd phone the breakdown people if we had a puncture. We will be using winter tyres and I always go to Kwik fit before journeys and they adjust the tyre pressure to fully loaded free of charge. They also do free tracking checks.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 14-12-16 18:55; edited 1 time in total
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I make about three trips to the alps each winter and am there for up to 3 months in winter. When I purchased winter wheels and tyres for my VW I purchased 5 as I have 5 summer tyres with proper space for the spare.
I rotate the winter spare each year and over time the extra cost will be minimal compared to the inconvenience of a puncture and incorrect or no spare. No I have not had a puncture on the winters but I do have peace of mind.
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SkiingDad wrote:
@mooney058,
Interesting... Nokian Weatherproof is not even sold in Finland, were Nokian is based and certainly the number 1 brand. The conspiracy theorist might argue that this is because Nokian wants all Finnish cars to have two sets of tyres.


In terms of winter tyres - there are different regions (like with DVDs). Most of Finnish winter tyres are either studded winter tyres (more up in the North) or Nordic Winter Tyres. These Nordic Winter Tyres are different from the Central European winter tyres - they are based on a much softer "rubber" compounds that works better in colder climats. Speed index of Nordic Winter Tyres is ussualy much lower than that of the 'regular' winter tyres. What UK or most continental EU would consider a regular winter tyre would not be adequate for most of Finnland. And then the "all weather" tyres are even harder/stiffer than Central European winter tyres.

So it is not a bad tyre as such (Nokian's all weather that is) but it is not considered adequate for Finnish conditions. So most finns would be using either Nordic winter tyre or studded. None of these works well in summer - either illegal or wears off very fast because of a soft compound.
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There are a few things about modern tyres and wheels that are interesting to a tyre bore like me:

Nowadays, it's better to run winter tyres in summer, than summer tyres in winter. Neither option is perfect, just that there are less deficiencies with the 'winters-all-year option'. We do this on our Peugeot 206, but then, it doesn't do the long motorway runs that would wear the tyre quickly in summer.

'All season' tyres are problematic, inasmuch as they're not as good as summers in summer and not as good as winters in winter. They became popular in 'marginal' areas of the USA where you'd get the odd winter snow storm but people didn't want the hassle/cost of separate winter and summer sets. But they have their merits in terms of never being as bad as the worst-case scenario either.

Tyres labeled 'M+S' are, absolutely not winters - it's just the tread pattern that's being described, and nothing to do with a winter compound. Plus, there is no official conformance standard for an 'M&S' label. Winter tyres have a strict conformance specification, and a 'mountain and snowflake' symbol on the side and as well as the obvious tread pattern they also have a completely different compound which begins to do its magic as temperatures fall below 7°C. (there are a very few M+S and 'mountain and snowflake' winter tyre brands, but these are rare.

A nice side-effect of switching to winter tyres is they usually are less prone to aquaplaning as well, because of the tread and sipe design, which is welcome in most UK winters. But most performance car owners will say that their winter tyres aren't as agile (or whatever term you like to use) as their summers and so they can't drive as 'enthusiastically' as they would in the summer (some people, especially rural road users, might argue this is no bad constraint).

Average UK winter temperate last year was 5.5°C so it might not look worthwhile to switch to winters but that figure is lower for typical AM/PM commute periods - if you live in The North and/or in mountain areas, then this could swing the balance. But obviously, if you leave the car in the garage when it's cold/wet/snowy then you'll probably not 'winterise' it.

The trouble with chains on summer tyres is twofold. Firstly, they may well not fit. A lot of new UK cars are sold with low-profile wheels that don't leave enough space to wrap the chains 'round the inner sidewall. Especially if the chains are a bit loose. For example, my Audi A3 could take chains on 16" and 17" wheels but not 18" or 19" ones. This information is usually buried deep in the Owner's Guide. Take a look at yours and just cross-check that the wheels you have can actually take chains. If not, this isn't the manufacturer being cranky - accept that if it says you can't take them, then you can't. [cue a bunch of replies saying "My manual says I can't use chains but I've used them, no problem." - I'll leave the choice up to you, but just point out that the poster won't be up the mountain in the snow with you when the uncertified chain wraps itself 'round your suspension and pipework.] There is a solution in certain brands that are front-fitting with no rear component: this is what I have even 'though I can use conventional chains as they're easy to fit and can also fit a wider range of wheel sizes. But they're around the £200-£300 mark.

The second problem with chains is in mixed tarmac/slush-snow conditions. You can't keep putting them on and taking them off. I've seen drivers of summer-shod cars in the Jura mountains simply having to turn around and go another route because the foothils were mixed tarmac/snow for at least 20 Kms and they simply couldn't sustain the vibration on the tarmac sections. Let alone the massive queue behind them of cars with winter tyres on who could happily handle this.

Performance car manufacturers often recommend a narrower wheel when fitting winter tyres. This is to reduce aquaplaning, allow for conventional chain fitting, and improve snow traction. It's also a lot easier and less wear and tear to swap 4 wheels around than 8 tyres (remove fitted set of 4, then fit the stored set of 4, twice a year). Plus storing inflated tyres on wheels is considered better than storing the tyres on their own.

Tyre Pressure Monitoring Systems (TPMS) certainly complicate the whole business, and make it more expensive. Typically about £60 each, this is yet another cost to add to the bill for winterising.

Run-flat tyres have come on a lot since the early days. But opinion is very divided on whether the trade-off is worth it. Some performance car owners feel that they degrade handling so much that they replace them straight away, whatever the mileage left in the runflats. Others like me don't agree and think that a marginal reduction in performance is worth it for (a) life-saving resilience on a blow-out and (b) ability to run for 50-80Kms deflated. You also pay a premium for runflats, but I'm fine with this. I'd admit that it's difficult to know whether I'd still carry a full spare if I could (my convertible just doesn't have the space).

Of course, statistically, you're likely to be able to use your summer tyres on your annual Alpine ski trip for many years before you hit a problem. Even if winter tyres extend the life of your summers (so are notionally cost neutral) there's still the capital outlay and the storage requirement. And the TPMS cost if you have that. And you still need chains for the worst Alpine conditions (not necessarily heavy snow but more likely a steep icy drive out of your hotel/apartment garage etc.). I go out often enough to warrant a set of winter wheels and tyres, and these have been as useful in the UK as abroad. But I can appreciate that someone who only goes out to the mountains once a year or even less faces a difficult choice over whether they're worth the cost and trouble.

People with winter tyres and/or 4WD often complain if they're forced by the police to fit chains (if they have them) at the base of an Alpine road, as they can probably get a long way as they are, or even all the way. To be fair, the police are doing this because they don't want cars scattered along the route, blocking it, as they reach their limits. It's better for everyone to be on chains right from the start. This means that even with an AWD and winter tyres, you still need to buy chains, even if the odds are very low that you'll need them.

For a Guide on this topics for performance car owners, take a look at http://www.babybmw.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=90035

For an interesting video test of a 4WD on Summers vs a 2WD on winters see:


http://youtube.com/v/mfuE00qdhLA


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 14-12-16 16:40; edited 4 times in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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SkiingDad wrote:
DrLawn wrote:
If you are regularly going to the alps .. why not treat yourself to a set of all weather tyres.


Because A) you're fooling yourself into a false sense of security and B) you are not fooling the authorities. "All weather tyres" (misnomer) are not an adequate substitute for winter tyres. They're not particularly safe and no country mandating the use of winter tyres will accept "all weather tyres".

For all practical purposes, all weather tyres are summer tyres.


Tyres such as the Michelin CrossClimate carry a snowflake and my understanding is that they are certified as winter tyres by the authorities.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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Alastair Pink wrote:
pam w wrote:
That was the second time in three years I'd had a a puncture problem on that stretch of road - the other was a Swiss hired car with a stupid can of gunk and a big gash in the tyre. When I bought my last two cars ability to carry a full size spare was a key criterion.


I recently bought a new car and I absolutely refuse to consider one which only has a can of gunk supplied. The car I bought came with a space saver tyre, which I will grudgingly accept, but I'd much rather have a full size spare!


My 12-year old car has a full-size spare. Problem solved. Madeye-Smiley
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@welshskier, I could not see the snowflake/mountain symbon on CrossClimate. Michelin's own promo video says that it is a summer tyre with winterised characteristics
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@mooney058, Michelin advertise their CrossClimate as having 3PMSF (Three Peak Mountain Snowflake) certification.
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