 Poster: A snowHead
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I don't post on here, I read it from time to time. I've found it refreshing to see that snowheads are fairly level headed when it comes to booking sites and reviews so this may not come as news....
With some great early season snow, people are starting to book accommodation for their winter ski trip. So, I think readers might be alarmed that another source of what we all thought was independent, impartial advice has been closed to them.
We own a small B&B in Leysin in the Swiss Alps and it’s a busy time of year for bookings. Where we work with partners, like booking.com, it’s the time when we check that the photos are from the winter and that the text accurately describes our property.
So, we were alarmed to discover this week we were no longer listed on the local tourist office website. We’d not received any advance warning of this so initially we assumed it was an error. A query to the tourist office informed us it wasn’t an error at all.
Without telling anyone, the tourist office has decided that only properties and businesses that pay them a yearly fee will be listed. We were asked to pay this fee when we arrived in the village five years ago, in fact, it was demanded twice, once for the B&B and another payment for my guiding business which is run from the B&B. At the time we thought the demand for a double payment was opportunistic. We’d arrived in July and the payment was a fixed calendar year fee so the demand was for 400% of the normal payment on a pro-rata basis.
Even so, we would probably have paid until we asked what the money was spent on. The answer, naturally, was that it promoted the area. We asked what, specifically, was being done to promote the activities my guiding business offers and what promotions were being done in English language channels. It wasn’t our objective to catch the tourist office out, I write for some magazines, I’ve a large image library and I wanted to know how I could work with them to do the promotion. This met with complete incomprehension, apparently, this wasn’t the sort of promotion being done.
So, yesterday, we asked again, what is the money being spent on? The answer now has dropped any pretence at promotion, one identified benefit now is to have access to their booking system. This booking system is technically inferior to our own, charges 10% per transaction and, of course, doesn’t integrate with the booking system for my guiding business.
The only other identified benefit is that we’ll be part of special offers. I can’t say whether that would happen or not, but I can say that no other B&B in the area that has paid this fee have ever been part of the promotions. For example, when there’s a white week with discounted lift passes they’re only available via the large chain hotel or the small hotel owned by the lift company. It seems odd that our neighbouring businesses decided not to take part.
Does it matter? Not a lot, probably. The internet is fast overtaking tourist offices as a source of information and internet booking channels. This year we’ve not had a single booking as a result of a tourist office referral and last year there were only three for one-night stays.
Or, maybe it matters a lot. The reason we’re angry is because we’ve yet to get an answer to that question from five years ago. What does the tourist office do to generate visitors to the area? Apart from sit and wait for someone to contact them? Other tourist offices are far more on the ball, several approach me to run activities for them to promote their area and their lift companies send me free passes hoping I’ll take clients there. My local office has absolutely no idea who I am or what I do and clearly couldn’t care less. I've sent them internationally published articles I've written about the area which they ignore so I've stopped sending them (and to an extent, stopped writing them).
The exchange rate, uncertain economic times and challenges from more agile internet channels are all things I thought the tourist office existed to help with. Their reaction? Turn the screws on local small businesses. That will work as long the local businesses don’t look too closely at how much business the tourist office actually creates.
And for the visitor, who thought the tourist office existed to explain what was offer in the local area? Forget it! All you’re going to be given is a list of who paid up. If you're thinking of booking via the tourist office website, try contacting the owner directly. There's at least 10% in that price the tourist office were going skim off.
I would have liked to work with them, create some promotions and lend our skills. I still would. But, we’ll not be paying money to an organisation who feel so entitled to a cut of our profits that they can’t be bothered to explain why.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@ise, interesting, disappointing but not enormously surprising.
When we arrived in Chamonix 10 years ago there were 4 separate "organisations" with a requirement to sign up for one in order that the T.O. list your property (and again charged 10%).
The T.O. took precedence on synchronous bookings which theoretically could have led to embarrassment and were more or less useless in generating business.
We let this all drop after a few years. (I should note that I believe that the Chamonix administration is reasonably active in promoting the valley as a destination).
I certainly wouldn't look first to the T.O. for accommodation myself!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think the only times I have used a TO for accommodation is when I am already in the town and need a bed for that night. I certainly have never looked on a TO website for a place to stay.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In france it is pretty standard that you pay to list your accommodation on the tourist office website, and that they don't list or promote accommodation who don't pay the fee.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I wouldn't either. Although Chamonix is a good example, I've a meeting there and it's actually hard to find accommodation out of season with parking and wifi. The impact is that it's more fragmented than it was 10 years ago.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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That's really sad to read and it appears the tourist office in question is just out to make a buck and sod local businesses and potential customers.
I've had dealings with the tourist offices in Nendaz, Engelberg, Solden, Grindelwald and Alpbach and all have them have been extremely helpful and the end result in each - very suitable holiday accommodation - has been more than satisfactory.
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@Snow and Sunshine, on the straw poll I did of colleagues I'd say it's certainly not unusual in France for the TO to charge but it's far from uniform.
As I said, my guess would be that mostly snowheads have some realistic expectations of the service but I'm sure they recognise that most people who contact a TO think they're getting impartial advice and that the TO is funded through local tax and tourist tax to promote the region.
I'd have been inclined to pay them back when we arrived if they could give a coherent account of what they're doing. Now they've reduced it a pure listing they've shot themselves in the foot a little because we actually measure that and I know for a fact they're not referring any business.
I'm not a fan of the OTA's we use but I know from the data we're stuck with them! It comes straight out of bottom line and, given the price parity clauses, it's costing guests at around 10-20% of their cost.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 22-11-16 10:32; edited 1 time in total
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@LOTA, are you sure they don't do the same? I think you'll find at least a couple of those do exactly what I described.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"booking via tourist offices, some caution reqd"
Not really. What you are actually saying is:
"listing your business via tourist offices, some caution reqd"
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As a punter I use the tourist office web sites to book aprtments all the time. There are others around and some businesses run their own (there are a few for Les Arc such as Alpes Horizons), but by and large the tourist office will have the best choice. So we, and I suspect most other punters use them. Sorry @ise, they do appear to have you over a barrel.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Snow and Sunshine, we had no problem paying for it, we just wanted to receive a little value in return. @JohnE - I think you'll find that isn't the case in Chamonix valley.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am not sure how much it varies from place to place but my experience with Austria is that the tourist office is the easiest way of finding accommodation and efficient.
France and Switzerland maybe less so. I am currently booking accommodation in Italy and have used the Tourist Office which has seemed fairly efficient but have yet to see an acknowledgment of my deposit.
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| ise wrote: |
| @LOTA, are you sure they don't do the same? I think you'll find at least a couple of those do exactly what I described. |
No, I have no knowledge of whether they do the same. However, as a customer, I received very good service from each of the tourist offices mentioned. I would have no hesitation in using them again and would not caution 'caution' as you put it in your thread title.
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You know it makes sense.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
"booking via tourist offices, some caution reqd"
Not really. What you are actually saying is:
"listing your business via tourist offices, some caution reqd" |
not really, I'm pointing out when they provide you a list of accommodation or services that you're really getting a list of businesses who paid them. And when you book via them, they're skimming 10% off the top. That's an issue for the guests.
For owners, these are small businesses without sophisticated IT or booking systems. They probably can't use Google Analytics and can't measure this properly. That's pretty bad for them but it's clearly not a problem for the guest.
They don't have us over a barrel at all because I can call their bluff, I know their claims about the business they generate are untrue but I don't think they know that themselves because they don't/can't measure it properly. Locally they were taken for a ride a couple of years back by a social media consultant who charged them money to get twitter followers, it was pretty obvious they took his exaggerated claims at face value and had no idea where to start measuring his actual performance.
It's their own funeral, these offices are already closing and merging. The world has moved on and they don't seem to get it.
It's not universal some of them are trying to generate new business, being offered paid work to promote activities in other regions when I'd have done it for free where I live is ironic to put it mildly.
It's not much different to ski stores, for each Sport Conrad who went big time on the internet there's another dozen who went bust flogging overpriced gear to an ever diminishing market.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Snow and Sunshine, we had no problem paying for it, we just wanted to receive a little value in return. @JohnE - I think you'll find that isn't the case in Chamonix valley. |
That's on the money I'd say. I worry about the fact they can't be bothered to even try and justify it all. My experience is that people who don't bother to justify themselves tend not to perform well across the board.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ise wrote: |
| I wouldn't either. Although Chamonix is a good example, I've a meeting there and it's actually hard to find accommodation out of season with parking and wifi. The impact is that it's more fragmented than it was 10 years ago. |
Really? A quick search on booking.com shows over 100 options in low season.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Without telling anyone, the tourist office has decided that only properties and businesses that pay them a yearly fee will be listed. We were asked to pay this fee when we arrived in the village five years ago, in fact, it was demanded twice, once for the B&B and another payment for my guiding business which is run from the B&B.
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Hang on, let me get this right. The TO asked you for money for a service they provide. You declined to pay for this service but (rather kindly I think) they provided you the service anyway (for a while)? Now that they've realised you have no intention of paying they've stopped.
Sounds fair enough to me. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ise wrote: |
| dogwatch wrote: |
"booking via tourist offices, some caution reqd"
Not really. What you are actually saying is:
"listing your business via tourist offices, some caution reqd" |
not really, I'm pointing out when they provide you a list of accommodation or services that you're really getting a list of businesses who paid them. And when you book via them, they're skimming 10% off the top. That's an issue for the guests.
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I'd say it's a statement of the obvious on both counts, particularly the latter. And by the sound of it, that 10% is less than you are paying other booking services.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I get the impression that the TOs in Austria seem more aligned to the local business. They often don't offer a booking system, just a system of listing and referrals - booking and payment is usually done directly with the owner.
Using Saalbach as an example, in summer they list lots of properties in the area. Some of the properties offer a "free" card called the Joker card, this gives guests free use of all the open lifts, the pool, mini golf and discounts off lots of things. Clearly the properties offering the Joker card are paying the tourist office for the card, but I guess that is in return for a listing on the site (the card itself is a huge advantage in itself). Not all properties offer the Joker card, but they are still listed. Whether they pay or not for the service I don't know.
When looking for properties I look at a number of sources, but then often bypass the system and contact the property owner directly to book (if it is possible to find their contact details).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| I wouldn't either. Although Chamonix is a good example, I've a meeting there and it's actually hard to find accommodation out of season with parking and wifi. The impact is that it's more fragmented than it was 10 years ago. |
Really? A quick search on booking.com shows over 100 options in low season. |
I said out of season, not low season. There's 9 for the dates I needed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| andyrew wrote: |
| Quote: |
Without telling anyone, the tourist office has decided that only properties and businesses that pay them a yearly fee will be listed. We were asked to pay this fee when we arrived in the village five years ago, in fact, it was demanded twice, once for the B&B and another payment for my guiding business which is run from the B&B.
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Hang on, let me get this right. The TO asked you for money for a service they provide. You declined to pay for this service but (rather kindly I think) they provided you the service anyway (for a while)? Now that they've realised you have no intention of paying they've stopped.
Sounds fair enough to me. |
My idea of fair clearly differs 
We still pay them, to the tune of several thousand a year in tourist tax and local tax. Not bothering to tell us would also fall outside my definition of fair.
They're bent of shape because we don't want to pay to use their booking system plus a 10% commission when we've already got one.
What I also don't think is fair is that they actually give rebates on the tourist tax to the large chain hotels so we're subsidising them as well.
I don't much care if they list us, I'd rather like them to do their job and promote the region, "a rising tide lifts all boats" after all. Whereas they appear, in collusion with the chain hotels, to be determined to hole all the other boats below the waterline
I'd give them double what they're asking if I thought they'd do anythig.
None of which is anyone's problem apart from local businesses. It's just worth bearing in mind it's adding 10% to costs and limiting choice which I think justifies some caution. We small alpine businesses aren't eccentric millionaires doing this as a tax write off
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| hammerite wrote: |
I get the impression that the TOs in Austria seem more aligned to the local business. They often don't offer a booking system, just a system of listing and referrals - booking and payment is usually done directly with the owner.
Using Saalbach as an example, in summer they list lots of properties in the area. Some of the properties offer a "free" card called the Joker card, this gives guests free use of all the open lifts, the pool, mini golf and discounts off lots of things. Clearly the properties offering the Joker card are paying the tourist office for the card, but I guess that is in return for a listing on the site (the card itself is a huge advantage in itself). Not all properties offer the Joker card, but they are still listed. Whether they pay or not for the service I don't know.
When looking for properties I look at a number of sources, but then often bypass the system and contact the property owner directly to book (if it is possible to find their contact details). |
That sounds generally more reasonable. As I pointed out at the start, I know for a fact that the other B&B's that do pay this protection money don't get access to those deals either. Whereas the chain hotels do plus a rebate on the tourist tax to fund their investment.
If they'll do our guests liftpasses at the same price they do for the Mercure, I'll pay them double or triple.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ise wrote: |
| And when you book via them, they're skimming 10% off the top. That's an issue for the guests. |
A bigger issue for guests - nine times bigger, in fact - is the other 90% that the accommodation provider is skimming off the bottom...
10% is actually tremendously good value. No guest imagines that the TO isn't making money (or at least, no guest with any sense!) Airbnb charge about 15%, for instance, and a real estate agent would charge far more.
The problem here is that you - as a small business - appear to have made the mistake that small businesses so often make, which is to underestimate the costs of running a business and therefore to overestimate the potential profits available. In fact you're very lucky in that the internet allows you to make sales without any third party intermediary.
How come Tescos make less than 5% profit on their sales? Because once you have taken into account the costs of running their stores, advertising, head office etc. etc. there's no such thing as an easy way to make money.
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| ise wrote: |
| I don't post on here |
Just the 4770 so far 
When I read the title of the post I thought there may be a reveal on some sort of major scam. As it is, it's an interesting anecdote and an interesting point of discussion.
Resort internet accommodation facilities and indeed independent ones are a bit clunky, sometimes frustrating, often requires a bit of nouse to get a decent deal. The worst experience I had in recent years was when we had to make a late switch and book an Odalys appointment. I won't be staying with that chain again. Usually we get something that ends up being through a local agent or direct with the owner. The websites are invariably just a means to an end. I'd like it to be a bit smoothier/easier but I've managed to get by.
Ultimately if they are providing no useful service to you, you just don't use them. As seems to be the case. As a punter I'll do the same.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| The problem here is that you - as a small business - appear to have made the mistake that small businesses so often make, which is to underestimate the costs of running a business and therefore to overestimate the potential profits available. In fact you're very lucky in that the internet allows you to make sales without any third party intermediary.. |
I think we're quite good at this. You might think 10% is good value but we don't pay anything like that.
One of things that was obvious to me reading the accounts of the previous owner was the huge amount of money she was being fleeced like this. 1000 chf to list on a website (about 5 times over), 1000 chf to host a website, 500 chf for someone to come and do a star rating. We actually turn over 5 times what the previous owner did, have 40% return booking compared to 5% previously and actually make a profit.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| I don't post on here |
Just the 4770 so far |
we've all got a past
| Layne wrote: |
When I read the title of the post I thought there may be a reveal on some sort of major scam. As it is, it's an interesting anecdote and an interesting point of discussion.
Resort internet accommodation facilities and indeed independent ones are a bit clunky, sometimes frustrating, often requires a bit of nouse to get a decent deal. The worst experience I had in recent years was when we had to make a late switch and book an Odalys appointment. I won't be staying with that chain again. Usually we get something that ends up being through a local agent or direct with the owner. The websites are invariably just a means to an end. I'd like it to be a bit smoothier/easier but I've managed to get by.
Ultimately if they are providing no useful service to you, you just don't use them. As seems to be the case. As a punter I'll do the same. |
Fair comment I think. As I opened with, my impression is that snowheads have a fairly pragmatic view of this. To be honest, I find it an antidote to some of the review sites and other listing scams that target us, a quick scan of the forum shows you're collectively not falling for most of the BS.
I'll stand by the subject, I just said some caution, not that it was the BHS pension scandal or that the TO should be firebombed, just be cautious
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TO's? I can't say I've ever used them.
The interweb is a wonderful thing. I find the area I want to visit, the type of things I want to do and surf the web looking for those things.
Although I generally drive to a location, there is the ferry/tunnel (tunnel always wins!!), maybe a stop enroute, self catering requires a supermarket close to the destination especially if climbing into the mountains and then the activity(ies) of choice once there.
This year, we are going catered, we used a company we have previously used for this. They also offered ski rental. Took that. They don't offer a crossing or places to stay, if we wanted to, on the way there/back or places to refuel. The internet is/was used for these. First stop in France will be at Champfleury, hypermarket just off the motorway, to refuel. This was found on the interweb.
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You know it makes sense.
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@James the Last, i don't think AirBnB charge anything like 15% ...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ABB are charging the guest an extra 90€ on a booking worth 740€. Owner is charged about 3% I think.
Book direct with the owners for commission-free booking and best prices. Google is your friend.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| GaryCantley wrote: |
TO's? I can't say I've ever used them.
The interweb is a wonderful thing. I find the area I want to visit, the type of things I want to do and surf the web looking for those things.
Although I generally drive to a location, there is the ferry/tunnel (tunnel always wins!!), maybe a stop enroute, self catering requires a supermarket close to the destination especially if climbing into the mountains and then the activity(ies) of choice once there.
This year, we are going catered, we used a company we have previously used for this. They also offered ski rental. Took that. They don't offer a crossing or places to stay, if we wanted to, on the way there/back or places to refuel. The internet is/was used for these. First stop in France will be at Champfleury, hypermarket just off the motorway, to refuel. This was found on the interweb. |
Exactly. So, if my Tourist Office wants you here then they need to sell the destination without relying on you coming to look for it. Which means getting some exposure and they don't seem to get that.
They seem to think we want them to sell our property and I'm not really bothered. We can do that ourselves and/or booking.com et al do it better so they can't compete.
It's not that we can't afford to pay them, they told us yesterday it wasn't so much and we'd not notice paying it, it's the fact that we make a profit by expecting every franc we pay out to have some sort of identifiable return. We bought a new set of garden furniture and a couple of cases of prosecco for what the TO want, over half the guests that enjoyed a free drink in the garden booked again and all gave great reviews. The TO's idea of a deal is to sell us a deckchair for 100- CHF (double what they charge the chain hotels).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@ise, I tried a couple of times to register with our local tourist office. They organised a visit from Clévacances to get the registration required. CV didn't turn up, thankfully they hadn't asked for their fee. I also completed a form which I know they received as they sent me a certificate to tell me I was a 'Meublé de Tourisme' (unclassified) but didn't rearrange the visit.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They're a bit grand sometimes. Before we moved here they called us to ask if we wanted to meet the director, we said yes and re-arranged a couple of things to be here. We stood in the lobby, he walked out of his office, shook my hand and walked off before his secretary had a coffee with us. He seemed to think he was some sort of royalty, incredible conduct. I presume I was supposed to ask for his autograph.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We had a fantastic week in Leysin in September, but I was not impressed with the tourist office. They seemed to have not interest in us other than take the tourist tax off us, no information given or asked whether they could help us further. We were quite happy to pay the tax, though not sure how many others voluntarily go to the TO to pay it, but was disappointed that the discounts the card gave us - 1euro off the gondola. I noticed that some of the other local resorts got much better discounts with the tourist card.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I must have been missing something for the past 20 odd years I've been booking ski trips.
Never once have I been on a TO website to book a holiday......I thought all those went out of business when the new fangled internet came online.
Far more less biased and more reliable information from forums like this and also direct links to businesses like yours.....if you chose to market / advertise yourself on the net.
I see what your getting at but as a business owner myself, I would be more inclined to focus my efforts and attention on something that would give me a better ROI than flogging what appears to be a dead donkey.
Let all the other business owners in the area prop up the local TO......a website not many people visit anyway(probably) you very politely say no thank you it's not for me (you don't want to fall out with the locals) and go spend your money elsewhere.
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@Gyro, I had a friend who wanted to go to Les Arcs for a week's skiing. He complained that he couldn't find an apartment looking at web sites such as owners abroad (I think that is what it is called). I pointed him to the Les Arcs tourist office http://www.lesarcs-reservation.com where there were over a 100 that met his criteria.
To me it is the logical place to find accommodation.
@Gyro, where do you go to find accomodation and have you really never visited a resoret web site in 20 years?
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@Gyro,
The best tourist office web sites have a range of accommodation and often availability unmatched elsewhere in my experience.
Not all Tourist Offices are the same and some are dreadful, but if I'm looking for accommodation in an area it is the first place I look at.
I've found loads of really good accommodation down the years via TO websites.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Gyro wrote: |
I see what your getting at but as a business owner myself, I would be more inclined to focus my efforts and attention on something that would give me a better ROI than flogging what appears to be a dead donkey.
Let all the other business owners in the area prop up the local TO......a website not many people visit anyway(probably) you very politely say no thank you it's not for me (you don't want to fall out with the locals) and go spend your money elsewhere. |
I think you're not fully aware how these guys are funded. Their income comes from local tax and tourist tax which we have to collect due to local ordinance plus whatever they can extract in fees. They now want 10% of our revenue as well. We can choose not to pay the fee and not use their booking system, but we're still collecting tourist tax for them. That tax undoubtedly goes on some worthwhile things, footpath signs and a free X-country ski trail, but it also goes in rebates to the chain hotels, it goes to buy those hotels logo'ed deckchairs which they kindly offer to sell the surplus to us at an inflated price. Basically, our guests are buying deckchairs for the Mercure, I'm pretty sure that's wrong
There's a fundamental attitude problem in the region, the chair of the regional hotel group denounces B&B's and small hotels as being a black market yet it's not us employing east Europeans on short contracts and sending them home There's a genuine belief that the small businesses actually should be supporting the large ones financially. I would have thought, if we wanted a French hotel chain we might actually expect them to support the local economy.
I'd rather like them to do what I think we all think they ought to be doing, promoting the area and I think there well enough funded to do that already.
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FAQ
