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Snowboarding sort of off-piste

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm new here so hello fellow boarding folk, also fairly new to snowboarding so apologies if this covers old ground or is just lack of experience - The resort where I'm off to in Feb has areas just off the main pistes which are not very challenging but great fun, these are through/outside the fences but I don't know if I'd class them as 'off-piste', and they seem pretty safe.

Is any area that isn't on an actual piste considered 'off-piste', is it more dangerous than I think and therefore should I spend vast sums of cash on transponders and the like?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Symson, welcome to SH - and a perfectly sensible question. Where are you heading to?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hi, heading to Limone Piemonte, Italy
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Quote:
Is any area that isn't on an actual piste considered 'off-piste'

Yes and no.

Yes, from a technical point of view it is. And if you are talking from an insurance point of view it is. And if you are talking from a controlled and patrolled pov it is. Once you past the piste makers there are ramifications.

On the other hand and pertinent to your subsidiary question, if you the experience and knowledge to make a judgement on what is safe and what is not, then yes it's reasonable to do some off piste without needing to buy all of the safety equipment.

Note: a judgement is just that. Sometimes open pistes get avalanched, sometimes people get it wrong. It's very difficult to be 100% safe.

So make sure you won't be done over on your insurance, be sensible, etc. and then dabble away. That is how most people start anyway.
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@Symson, I would double check what the local laws are.

I'm pretty sure that in Piemonte it's a legal requirement to have the kit (Shovel probe transceiver) if you are off piste although it's not the case in all parts of Italy.
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Thanks for the responses

Okay, that's thrown up two things I wasn't taking into account - whether I'd be doing something illegal and insurance (...checks through winter sports cover...)

On the whole if you were doing any kind of off piste boarding, even if it's pretty tame, would you take basic kit?
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Symson, As I have the kit I tend to take it whatever. If you fancy getting into offpiste and back country then it makes sense to buy the kit and start to understand how to use it sooner than later.

That said, local laws aside, lots of people play 'on the side' and it's rarely an issue. However, with the local laws* I'd rent or buy the kit.


*assuming I'm correct on that.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@AndAnotherThing, a few forums appear to backup carrying a transceiver, shovel and probe is legal requirement for off piste in Piemonte. And although it maybe overkill for playing about, I'm thinking it may be worth it and go more adventurous
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If you don't know what is classed as off piste you probably shouldn't be going past the markers. In Europe as soon as your past the markers you're off piste it's not avi controlled and it's up to the individual to make decisions.
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@Symson Speaking from very bitter experience, playing around in the "side/slack country" can have very serious consequences especially if you aren't carrying the right kit. I'd say buy the kit and get a couple of hours tuition with a local instructor to tell you how to use it.
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Quote:
On the whole if you were doing any kind of off piste boarding, even if it's pretty tame, would you take basic kit?


I am a skier not a boarder, though my son (11) boards some days. I myself and we as a family (2 adults and 2 kids) have skied off piste without the basic kit. There is IMO and I believe a many people would share the view, safe off piste. Safe being a relative term as even pistes aren't 100% safe. But just check out how many ski school instructors dabble off piste with their classes.

Many will say has they have in this thread that before you take a step out of bounds you should kit up and train up. That is the most sensible and safest option but ignores IMO the reality of the learning process. What I would say though is do genuinely play it safe and do get trained and kitted before you start getting too adventurous.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
In two minds on this - One half is "Get the gear, know your environment, insurance etc etc" and its nae on impossible to argue that position when you say 'Off Piste', and I do agree with it.

but...

What are we actually talking about in terms of @Symsons request? We're looking at poaching a hundred feet of line in the fresh stuff off to the side, not hiking couloire lines. And if we were talking about a trip to the US or Canada here, then we know we'd be having a different conversation - most of my experiences off the trails have been there - but I'll admit to short forays off to the sides or between pistes in Europe without kit, and I expect most of us have.

So for my 10 cents, as you've not much experience off the piste, get yourself a lesson and explain to your instructor what you're looking for, particularly as you say you're fairly new to snowboarding you've probably not ridden much powder or ungroomed piste before. I don't know Limone Piemonte, but some resorts have pistes which are marked and controlled but not groomed - you're inbound but you'll get similar conditions you might find off piste. look to see if your resort has those and try your hand there and practice, last thing you want to be doing off piste on a snowboard is losing it and having to extract yourself on foot in waist deep snow. Also why not go read up about off piste stuff on places Henrys Avalanche Talk or here over in the Off piste section of the forum.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The things I'm about to post are far from text book rules but more advice from a mate.

If an area is completely untouched, its probably untouched for a reason.

If others are on an area never drop in underneath them, there movements could set off a slide right on top of you.

Likewise, if others are below you wait for them to be clear before dropping in.

Never follow a track that you have no idea where it goes, it could take you the opposite direction to any lifts or pistes to get you back...and in some cases take you into another country where you may have big issues even hitch hiking back!

Having said that, if you watch someone else take that track and see them pop back onto the piste 100m further down the piste I'd prob be very tempted to see what's down that track.

If there's been a heavy snowfall over night don't venture much more than 20-30m from the piste, always have a route back to the piste.

If your taking your board off and hiking up something to get a fresh line you prob should have a transceiver.

Splash out for a guide (who should provide any equipment needed, maybe for a charge) and will take you further away from the pistes ad will pass on valuable tips for you to make your own judgement in future.

Don't take risks. If you think its dodgy don't do it, get more knowledge so you can make that decision on sound information and not just guessing.

Enjoy your trip!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
this seems like a good unofficial common sense guide - I will take note

Thanks all, I appreciate the advice and guidance, it is very useful as I couldn’t really find much online which covers this.

I understand the official stand point has to be: if you go off piste you need the kit and training. However it strikes me that the key thing here is experience. So I'm thinking, before buying kit, a local guide is a good way to go
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
One thing though, how does the fact it's illegal not to have the kit actually affect you? I'm guessing no-one has been arrested, but I'm guessing it may void insurance as you are breaking the law, or you may be charged for rescue if you get stuck...?
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Symson wrote:
One thing though, how does the fact it's illegal not to have the kit actually affect you? I'm guessing no-one has been arrested, but I'm guessing it may void insurance as you are breaking the law, or you may be charged for rescue if you get stuck...?


Why do you think no one has been arrested ?

Also, if I recall the last time I was in the region, they note the legal consequences for starting an avalanche on the piste map boards....
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Screw the law...

...but you don't want to be dead or in a massive legal case for setting off an avalanche on top of 20 innocent bystanders using the nearby piste.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
http://www.natives.co.uk/news/going-off-piste-in-italy-avalanche-safety-gear-is-now-mandatory/4839

http://wepowder.com/forum/topic/184708

I vaguely remember stories of people being warned and stuff but I suspect invalidating your insurance is the biggest worry. Those shysters love an excuse not to pay out.
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@Layne, I think the wepowder link sums it up nicely.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
As some people said, you kind of have to make a judgement, and only you can do that.

People will tell you it's unsafe, but most of them ride to the side of pistes all the time, and probably don't even know when they're doing it. Itineraries are often ridden by people without gear/ training or mates: a simple prohibition is suitable for your kids maybe, but better approaches are available.

In Italy I'd say that other people kicking stuff down on you is likely to be an issue, based on their climbers' attitude. But you should not be riding under places where that's an issue...

I'd find out if they patrol these areas and/ or if they're "made safe" for avalanches. Then I'd make a judgement.
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Having had a big accident a few years ago, being off piste is a lot like being pregnant. From an insurance point of view, you are never a little bit pregnant.

I was covered as the accident happened on a piste but the insurers wanted full details of exactly where and proof from the piste security people, by way of the dispatch ticket I got when carted off to hospital. If this ticket has Hors Piste (or the Italian equivalent) written on it, you are looking at some serious personal expenditure.

From this experience, get insurance that covers you for going off the sides... or stay this side of the markers.

I now have SCGB insurance which covers off piste (without a guide). If my crash had happened 10 seconds before it did, my claim would have been refused and I would have faced a big bill.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Symson wrote:
I'm new here so hello fellow boarding folk, also fairly new to snowboarding so apologies if this covers old ground or is just lack of experience - The resort where I'm off to in Feb has areas just off the main pistes which are not very challenging but great fun, these are through/outside the fences but I don't know if I'd class them as 'off-piste', and they seem pretty safe.

Is any area that isn't on an actual piste considered 'off-piste', is it more dangerous than I think and therefore should I spend vast sums of cash on transponders and the like?


Symson, there is no middle ground with this, you are either on the piste or off it, the piste is the marked run denoted by the piste markers and is either bashed or left unabashed everything outside the markers is off piste. Even going 1m outside the piste markers is deemed off piste and if your insurance does not cover off piste and you break a leg you will not be covered. The other key thing to understand is that more people are killed in avalanches within site of the piste then in the proper backcountry. Off piste the snowpack is not controlled, the pisters may blast areas near pistes to prevent slides coming across the piste, you should never assume that venturing off piste within sight of the run is safe.

Always assume the off piste is dangerous and be prepared, have an avalanche beacon, shovel and probe and know how to use them. Its a worth while investment it could save your life or someone elses. Also make sure your mates have the right gear as well as no point in you having it but none of your mates having it. As you progress your boarding and your experience grows you will venture further and further off the piste in the quest for fresh lines so get the kit and it will last you for years.

Have a read of this http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Off-piste-and-avalanches-free_1_0.pdf

Henry opened my eyes to all the risks I had been taking and made me reevaluate my attitude to the mountains and safety, far too many people make assumptions about conditions and take risks without knowing they are doing so.

As others have stated, don't take risks, I have sat at the top of an off piste section and had a bad feeling about it and rather then chance it i have walked out a different route, trust your gut.

Hope you have a great time in Feb. snowHead
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:
Symson, there is no middle ground with this, you are either on the piste or off it, the piste is the marked run denoted by the piste markers and is either bashed or left unabashed everything outside the markers is off piste.

Without wishing to start an helmet like thread I think there is a "middle ground". Whilst we shouldn't make assumptions and it's always worth restating the purpose of the piste marker boundary and the ramifications of going beyond them, it's also worth noting that a) avalanches onto the piste do occur and b) some off piste is so benign that in terms of avalanches it is effectively "safe". I've skied off piste without the gear in a variety of circumstances - skiing with people who don't have gear, skiing solo, skiing with children. All circumstances in which you are effectively working on the principle that the stuff you are doing is as safe as skiing on piste in avalanche terms. I'll grant you the more knowledge of terrain, weather, etc. the better and it may be that the OP doesn't have the experience to make the judgements. On the other hand I know places that even someone with little experience could make the judgement on. Many of these will be of minor interest to an experienced off piste skier but if you want to make baby steps like the OP they can be ideal to play around.
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