 Poster: A snowHead
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Following on from comments on ski school on the "first ski hol how's this for a plan" thread I thought it worth starting a dedicated thread on this subject thats probably been done to death before but here goes.
In the 30 years / ~80 weeks on skis that I have done, I have probably spent 20 weeks in group lessons as much for the social aspect of someone to ski with as anything else. Apart from 4 weeks with UCPA in France, they have all been in Andorra where the instructors either spoke English as a mother tongue or spoke excellent english and the attitude has always been that you are on holiday to enjoy yourself.
The cost of ESF has always put me off using them so I can't comment on ESF other than they always look very stone faced but the french UCPA instructors were all young and easy to get on with.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I got taught in the late 70's/early 80's Austria by the local ski school in Kitzbuhel . . .most of the instructors were male and over 50, many smoked roll-ups, none spoke English (or at least English that an 8 year old could understand) . . .instead they used their ski poles with a crack to the back of calves as required . . . best times ever and I learnt to ski very quickly but eventually stopped ski school at 12yrs as other than race school there was nothing 'instruction wise' any higher.
Next set of lessons were in the States (Vail) in the late 80's as a teenager. . .had 2 weeks solid instruction all day in a small group, most of which was off piste with 207cms long skinny skis, no safety gear, a very baggy Nevica jacket and a foggy pair of Uvex goggles that someone had left on the chair lift - brilliant.
No lessons in between, but next set were also in the States in the mid 90's - 2 weeks solid instruction all day in a small group - mostly with a piece of cord around my knees to stop me skiing with my legs locked and basically undoing all that calf cracking stuff I'd learnt in Austria years before that had also helped me ski off piste with silly skis the decade before. . . . . .
Next set of lessons were 2 days of private instruction in Saas Fee in the mid 00's . . . .first 'propa' introduction to carving and also off piste with what I thought were FAT slalom skis (probably 69 waste) . . .returning to locked legs, these skis floated like never before and could turn on a sixpence - skiing was easy. . !
Big gap with no lessons up until last year - 2x 2day 'clinics' on piste and off piste with Rod from BASS L2A on my own pair of all mountain specials. . . . . .a revelation! No more gimmics (calf cracking / cord around knees / convoluted body positions) - just simple weight distribution / feel on the balls of your feet and timing tweaks - genius.
So the conclusion? About 12 weeks group lessons and a week of private . . .I'm not a skiing god but have good basics - if I was fitter I would ski better; period. Would always consider at least a days small group/private lesson on every holiday from now onwards - like any sport, bad habits / technology changes mean small tweaks in technique can be invaluable; and most importantly enjoyable!
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 14-11-16 16:06; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SKi school is as much a social thing for me as it is instruction.
Myself and my wife ski at very different levels, If i wasn't in ski school I'd be by myself and bored silly, or skiing the same few runs over and over with her and bored silly.
Ski school puts me in a group with a people of the same level or there abouts and entertains me for the week.
Well worth it imo
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Did most of my beginners riding in the US or Canada, back in the early noughties, when exchange rates were good, tuition was comparatively cheap and income was disposable. Used to block book instructions for 4 or 5 half days, and normally groups were just the people I was on my trip with and an instructor. The quality of snowboarding tuition back then in Europe was... patchy at best - I've heard plenty of horror stories from the era, instructors teaching on skis rather than on a snowboard, refusing to teach people who couldn't already ski, demanding people reconfigure their setups to a +/+ stance before taking them out etc. None of that in North America, all the instructors I've met over the years seemed genuinely pleased to be teaching people the sport they loved themselves (with one minor exception when we once got an instructor who seemed not to be able to snowboard himself in Fernie - we called an end to the session ourselves and basically told him to go as he was falling over more than we were, went back to the office where they apologised profusely and offered us a compensation session next day). Half of those sessions over the years have been more about discovering new bits of the mountain than techniques or drills - never really did the ski-guiding thing as it tended not to be a 'thing' in the US without chalet holidays, plus chalet-host/guides tended to be skiers rather than snowboarders.
These days, as someone who only gets to indulge in the mountains a week or two a year, i'm not adverse to taking a half day of tuition just to knock some of the ugly and the lazy out of my riding every now and again, or a bit of out-of-bounds riding, but most of the money I give to the ski schools is going on the kids tuition.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Maybe it depends how you look at ski school. As I've said elsewhere, I skied as a fearless 11 year old kid (ski school every year for 7 or 8 years) then took a sabbatical from skiing altogether for about 10 years and returned to skiing (and ski school) 6 years ago. At that time it was all about getting my ski legs back after such a long break (which in all honesty took about 5 minutes!) and making sure my technique was ok. It also gave me something to do every morning on that first trip, since my OH was in a beginners group anyway.
The funny thing is that all these years later we still do ski school out of choice, though admittedly not all 6 days now. As much as I enjoy skiing with my OH, there are moments of hilarity which you only seem to get when skiing as part of a bigger group. Perhaps if I had a a large group of friends or family who were skiers then it would be different..... but I don't.....so it isn't.
Lastly, I've always had the impression that my instructors were genuinely there to give technical pointers and show me around the mountain, not to put me through skiing boot camp! I think a distinction should perhaps be drawn between ski school and ski coaching (?) or maybe even the different levels of ski school (beginner vs advanced). For me ski school is all about being shown the mountain with a bunch of skiers of similar ability and getting some technical pointers along the way, not having someone bark orders, along with possible 'pole threatening!' Then again, it takes all sorts so I'm sure some people might love that. I'm not here to judge. 
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Did two weeks of ski school, Evolution 2 in Tignes, which the first holiday ski holiday I went on. It just me and a relatively experienced friend. I did ski school in the morning and skied with him in the afternoon. It got me off to a flying start. I've not felt the need since. I guess part of that may be down to having like minded people to ski with - where standards were within a reasonable range - so I didn't have the need socially. And part may be down to listening to and watching those better than me and being with people that were challenging each other. I had one friend especially in the early years who pushed me pretty hard.
I've had one private lesson after a few weeks skiing which was really useful.
I guess for me I've got to the level where I can ski the whole mountain without too much fear in reasonable comfort. I'm half a century old a two week a year punter so there is a limit to what I can or want to achieve.
I've never done any racing or competitive skiing, I don't want to be an instructor.
If I wanted to ski with others I would use this board and the bashes.
As it is these days I ski with the wife and two children. Controversially in some quarters, the children have been parent taught. Probably 75% by their mother who was bought up close to a ski area and so has skied from a young age. Occasionally stressful it was also rewarding and fun. The kids could probably learn more from being with an instructor and/or would enjoy skiing with other children. Does anyone truly know what is the best.
Ski schools serves lots of purposes I would say. Personally I think on here it's too often cited as the go to thing. Mileage, pushing yourself, wanting to learn, etc. can get you a long way. There was a thread on here recently about what peoples skiing days were like. A couple said they were on the first lift and skied until the last to which others said it was meant to be a holiday and they got up as they liked. Others finished early because the snow was poor at the end of the day. And so on. One size does not fit all I guess.
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I'm rather torn on this issue;
Ski lessons etc. are clearly essential when starting and undoubtedly a good idea at any time. However, the couple of times I've had group lessons in recent years I've found them of very limited value and exceptionally dull with endless hanging about. Private lessons are much more effective but I simply can't justify the huge cost of having anything more than just a very occasional lesson - and that isn't really enough to make much of a difference. In addition, most private lessons only seem to be available at lunchtime - Precisely when I want to be having ..... lunch, and more importantly doing so with all my friends.
My children have never really enjoyed ski lessons, despite loving skiing. They have enjoyed the private lessons but generally dislike the ESF group lessons.
Nowadays I feel that I've reached a level where I can comfortably ski most slopes that I want to. If I had more lessons then I'd probably be better and consequently want to ski other slopes that I don't particularly want to at the moment.
Often the decision about whether to have a lesson boils down to whether I would rather spend the very precious time with an instructor or with family/friends. The latter usually win hands down.
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I found that group lessons were OK to get you to intermediate level. After that, a couple of Private Lessons per holiday is the best way to make the various breakthroughs, as one's skiing progresses.
The instructor makes a big difference....and this place is a mine of terrific info, so should be able to point to a goodun.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My first day of ski school was in Bulgaria - and I had such a bad hangover I couldn't tell if I was moving or not.
But the teacher was great and remarkably understanding. Having cut down on the drinking, we were the last standing in the group at the end of that first week, with others having slowly dropped out (free lessons with your lift pass doesn't create a great incentive to turn up). We then sought him out for a group lesson the following year (when he was also great).
Others friends (with different instructors) had very different experiences that week though and the attitude and teaching ability of someone's first instructor - especially when learning as an adult - can have a real lasting impact on people's attitude to the whole ski school thing.
I'm lucky that me and OH ski at pretty much exactly the same level so we always have company. We also tend to go on group trips so vague plans / ski buddy chances are never that far away. But I do miss the exploratory nature of Ski School, and the fact that there is someone to push you as a group that knows just what you should be trying.
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My first day of ski school was an absolute nightmare!
Started pretty well in la plange, dropped off by friends at the esf school, we practice getting skis on and off, then stepping up the hill and sliding down, before progressing to a small lift.
Problem was, this lift was ridiculous, a little button drag that ran at knee height! (Perhaps meant for toddlers?) Anyway, we weren't taught how to use this lift at all and the instructor didn't use the button, just held on, so copying him was tough. The first time up I made it to the top, but after that my arms were tired and without the button I couldn't hold on that long, so I kept falling off before the top! At one point even ending up lying in between these two knee height wires, with skis sticking up through the middle. The instructor thought this was hilarious and offered no help whatsoever.
Then with an hour left to go he announced they were going up a different lift, but that I wasn't ready. He told me to wait here and they'd be back to get me soon! An hour later, at the end of the lesson they appeared back at the top of the slope, with me still stuck at the bottom of the lift i couldn't use! Turns out he'd taken the beginners up a tricky blue. One of the women who did go was so terrified by it she didn't ski again for the rest of the week.
Luckily for me, one of the friends I was on holiday with had been an ski instructor of some kind for a season and I persuaded her to come out with me for an hour or so in the afternoon which was massively more useful than the morning group session.
On the plus side, the next day the beginners group got split into 2 and those of us who couldn't cope all bonded around this and had a great time together for the rest of the week learning at our own place with an amazingly patient instructor who took over our little group.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There appears to be some trends coming out, Ski school seems more popular if someone skis alone or with partner of different ability, those that go away with larger groups, soon drop ski school especially if there is a language issue.
Personality also has a big influence, one of my daughters is quite quiet and does not like ski school, her younger sister is very lively, loves ski school and the friends that she makes there.
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My first day of ski school was in Bulgaria - and I had such a bad hangover I couldn't tell if I was moving or not.
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Lol! +1 my older brother has been a very bad influence on my skiing one way or another, getting me legless the night before then daring me to jump off various rocks etc the next day.
One word of advice I would give is that if you take lessons of any kind, get the instructor to give you excercises that you can practice when out skiing with your family / friends, 15+ years after my last group lesson in Andorra, I still practice the excercises that I was given.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I take as many lessons as i can afford , therefore group lessons 
Always learn something , find the best value restaurant , hidden bars etc into the bargain!
Always tends to be a load of drop outs as the week goes on so you can get almost private tuition.
Another benefit is that it loosens you up early in the morning and gets you up and on the slope , esp when in groups of flaffers , you can just leave them flaffing about the hotel under the pretence of not missing the lessons
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| Quote: |
| Private lessons are much more effective but I simply can't justify the huge cost of having anything more than just a very occasional lesson - and that isn't really enough to make much of a difference. |
I don't think the cost is huge though is it - not in the sense of the intensive coaching you get out of it. When I did mine it was for one hour, non stop and it gave me stuff to work on for at least a week or two. It did make a big difference at the time. That said my mate said his hour was nowhere near as helpful. Whether this was down to the instructor and/or him I don't know. But the beauty of it was that it was just one hour so no great loss.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| Another benefit is that it loosens you up early in the morning and gets you up and on the slope , esp when in groups of flaffers , you can just leave them flaffing about the hotel under the pretence of not missing the lessons |
This is actually quite a positive for lessons. If you have the desire it gets you up and out early and in all conditions. And most decent instructors will crack on and take you places that will challenge you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Th lessons which have helped me change my skiing the most have been week-long group ski coaching, either half-day or all-day sessions, with daily video feedback. Groups have been at a similar level and importantly had a similar attitude to improving their own skiing, having a laugh during the week, pushing and supporting each other. That kind of ski coaching has been way more influential than the private lessons I've had, because you have more time in front of the instructor allowing you to develop all aspects of your skiing as well as more time being challenged on terrain or tactics that you might not think yourself capable of.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rob@rar, agree video feedback is a essential . . . .I reckon most think they have perfect form, until its scrutinised in slow motion! First experience of this was with BASS - really helpful.
Some interesting comments on here - both myself and my brother/sister were all socially confident kids; my own kids are the same, hence we all thrived in ski school group lessons (don't believe language is a barrier - been shown effectively by the teacher, like all sports is the key) So confident kids = ski school works?
Adults perhaps the same - nervous adult beginners may still thrive in group lessons as if they are socially confident then they are supported by their peers . . .in my experience (and what I have witnessed in my wifes group lessons) is that the 'confident' beginners in such lessons are often secretly / openly despised for showing off!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@rob@rar, Why do I get the feeling you and I will use this thread as a market research tool 
As an instructor I love the idea of this thread and look forward to watching it evolve.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I learned to ski in Andorra in 1982.. Dont remember much as it was an 18-30 do so alchol was never far away.... But we did laugh a lot... Used to grade the runs by their giggle factor... After That i had a proper group lesson a few years later whilst in santa caterina with a chap called Hippo... After that odd tips from people, ... Thinking of doing BASi L1 for the fun of it..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Can't remember much about ski school experiences way back on school trips. Well, except for the end-of-week races in Claviere (1984!), coming out ahead of another kid who'd been picking on me all week (I admit I wasn't a very good winner ).
Since returning to the slopes in 2012, I've gone with group lessons each trip, and had varied (but generally OK) experiences. An instructor in Courmayeur, who acted mainly as a guide, with occasional exhortations not to sit back. Didn't learn much from him technically, but he did encourage me to go down some slopes I mightn't have tried otherwise. Then in Bardonecchia, the ex-olympic trainer. A lot of focus on technique - some of it didn't quite click that trip, and some of it a bit beyond my level of fitness (I think I frustrated him - finally had to explain him that I couldn't stay that low for more than a few minutes). And in Gressoney, ending up in a group with less confidence with an instructor emphasising slow and controlled. Getting a little frustrated myself... until I finally managed to curb my impatience, and found some of the lessons about posture were making more sense and I was feeling my edges (came in useful later, swooping down that beautiful black run to Alagna).
But, as others have said, a lot of it is the social aspect. Don't have any skiing friends, but each year have met people through the ski school. Just thinking that maybe I ought to get some lessons booked for the trip I'm taking in January.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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About 18 years ago, I was doing the "Ski elite" group lessons in Soldeu when we had about 40cm new snow, the instructor took us down a run that had not been pisted or skied, I was that despised guy described earlier that remained upright till the bottom, enjoying the powder while everyone else fell about. The others told the instructor not to go on the deep stuff again, this was the point that I knew that I had outgrown conventional group lessons until I skied with UCPA.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| @rob@rar, Why do I get the feeling you and I will use this thread as a market research tool |
Certainly interested to read other people's experiences. I don't think there is a single "right" or "best" solution for ski school as it depends very much on what the client is looking for, and that varies significantly from person to person. I simply chipped in with my experience as being perhaps a little different from the typical ski school offering (which in turn has influenced what we offer through Inside Out Skiing). The one common factor you would like to see is what ever ski school option you decide on the quality of the experience should be high. In my experience that isn't true: the reason I gave up on ski school in my early 20s was being fed up of being guided around the mountain by perfectly affable ESF instructors who seemed to have little interest in teaching me. I then spent a long time perfecting my bad habits by repeatedly practising the wrong things, before discovering other ski school options which could help me improve. It's the quality of the experience that we should be focusing on, more than trying to identify the single "best" ski school option.
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Ok, flip it around a bit - @rob@rar and any of the other instructors out there reading this thread; What do you find makes a good client? How should a 'not had a lesson in years and I do fine' week-or-so-a-year skier approach taking some instruction again, so they're not burning a pile of euros and a half-day of precious mountain time?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Richard_Sideways, I'm exactly one of those (albeit 2 weeks a year) and only chose to do a 'clinic' as I was on a solo trip . . .would definitely repeat regularly now
The way BASS L2A was set up was perfect for me . . .2 day clinic - small group guarantee with people of a similar level, day of initial gentle instruction/tweaks followed by video analysis - day of rest (to put focus points into practice) followed by another day to re-tweak as required.
No hardcore drills, just simple effective tweaks and a focus on 'feel' rather than convoluted technique / total reconstruction. This may be because we all had solid basics, so I assume the instruction has to be relevant to the individual(s) on the day. . .the strength and overall experience of a good instructor is to presumably understand this quickly if the sessions are to be a success . . .
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Ok, flip it around a bit - @rob@rar and any of the other instructors out there reading this thread; What do you find makes a good client? How should a 'not had a lesson in years and I do fine' week-or-so-a-year skier approach taking some instruction again, so they're not burning a pile of euros and a half-day of precious mountain time? |
I suppose that depends on how you'd define 'good'. For me the only prerequisite is a desire to change, to improve. That makes a good client.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I suppose, and I come from a position of no authority here, how do you as instructors go about identifying and unpicking somebodys dodgy technique and patching it back together in a short morning session? I suppose, do you find clients to come to you from a position of knowing what they want to try to improve on, or those who come as a 'blank page' and ask you to assess them and steer their improvement, get more out of their time - particularly when you've only got one or two short sessions with them, and have no prior knowledge particularly of their abilities.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I did 2 weeks in ski school in my teens and have had perhaps 6 private 2 hour lessons in the 60 weeks I have skied since.
I enjoyed the time in ski school skiing with my schoolmates but I was a beginner and had a very low bar for improvement.
I actually dislike skiing in big groups full stop - too much waiting around. Obviously I do it from time to time but I'm sacrificing skiing for socialising. I'd prefer to be in a group of 4 or less so ski school doesn't appeal.
I've enjoyed all my private lessons and always got something out of them. I've generally booked them when I've been feeling a little jaded or in a rut - good for refreshing you.
I'm not entirely sure why I haven't done more. I think usually I'm having too much fun and am always working on some little improvements on my own. Guess also the cash has gone on guides rather than instructors.
I have spent a chunk of cash on private lessons for my kids (group of 2-4). We've just about concluded that is over (unless I can persuade them to start racing but then they would join a largely French group which they are not that enthusiastic about. A bit of a shame). My oldest told me that he thought he was now getting more out of talking with me about skiing than from the private lessons  I'm sure that wouldn't be true if we found a really enthusiastic coach with great English. To be fair though he has started working stuff out for himself by watching and copying. Which is really how I learned.
We have a lead on one potential new instructor. I think I'm going to book them a lesson and go with them - see how good I think he is. If he is really good perhaps I'll take one on my own.
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I have never had any formal Ski school lessons. I started skiing at the age of 34 when I started a two year contract in Sweden and our boss decided it would be good for team morale if we had a common free time activity. So I had to use part of my moving in allowance to buy basic ski kita. The first day on snow I was shown how to snow plough and turn which I picked up quickly. All this was on small recreational hills around Stockholm with just T-bar lifts. I then went on a weekend trip to a proper Swedish Ski centre about 4hrs away with a friend who was reasonably experienced. These two days of following him down blue slopes got me to the stage of skiing parallel in a straight line and doing stem turns as required. I then started using bank holiday week-ends to further practice my skiing on longer slopes. At the end of my contract having met the future Mrs Rabbie I remained in Sweden and continued my week-end skiing getting (in my own opinion at least) a bit better so I was happy on reds and could manage not too severe blacks especially if I was following some one confident.
The we moved back to the UK and my skiing became a forgotten pleasure for various reasons. Finally last year I decided to treat my self to a skiing holiday after only 27 years and booked a solo trip to Borovets. I found with modern shorter skis I could still manage to regain my old technique but being on my own I had no-one to push me to take slightly more challenging routes.
This season I decided that I needed to have some lessons as being older and not as strong as I was showed up some short comings in my technique so I signed up for the MYAshBash with lessons. I will report back on my Ski School experience afterwards
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You know it makes sense.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| I suppose, and I come from a position of no authority here, how do you as instructors go about identifying and unpicking somebodys dodgy technique and patching it back together in a short morning session? |
If someone has poor technique, especially if engrained by years of practising the same ineffective movements, it is unrealistic to think that it can be changed permanently and at a deep level in one or two private lessons. That's not because it takes a long time to diagnose what the problem is: a decent instructor should be able to give a running commentary on a skier's fundamental skills after seeing two turns. Skiing is not that complicated, and a decent instructor should be able to see the more obvious weaknesses in a skier pretty much immediately. The more you have time to see a skier, in a range of settings, the more you should be able to see smaller, more focused aspects of their skiing, but generally it's the fundamentals which should be addressed first rather than the little stuff. The key limiting factor in making progress is the rate at which the skier can make changes to their own performance: to their movement patterns; to tune in more effectively to their internal feedback, to develop a better technical understanding of what they are trying to change and replace it with, to influence subtly their rate and range of movement, to match their movements to the forces they are generating, to develop enough confidence to use their skis effectively, etc. A good instructor will have an accurate "eye" to see what is going on, and a range of different tools to help the skier change (and sadly that is not true of every instructor out there), but in my experience (as a teacher and as a learner) the rate of improvement is more determined by the skier rather than the instructor.
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| I suppose, do you find clients to come to you from a position of knowing what they want to try to improve on, or those who come as a 'blank page' and ask you to assess them and steer their improvement, get more out of their time - particularly when you've only got one or two short sessions with them, and have no prior knowledge particularly of their abilities. |
It's very rare for a client to come to me for the first time with a specific technical change they want to make. Sometimes a client will have a focus on improving a particular aspect of skiing (e.g. I want to carve my turns, I want to learn to ski moguls, I want to be better if the snow is icy), and how you work with them depends very much on their current skiing standard. It can be difficult to work on tactics for skiing moguls if the skier struggles to keep their skis parallel at the start of most turns, had a very wide stance and has a pole plant which is a bit haphazard. In that kind of situation there is lots and lots of good stuff you can work on, but you have to temper expectations because it is unlikely that the skier will be able to ski bumps by the end of the session. But if a skier is more experienced and has a higher core skill level then you can have a very productive session on the adaptions to your core technique which are required for different types of skiing.
Mostly the clients who come to Inside Out Skiing want to improve their skiing generally, in all situations, from off-piste to high speed to steeps, bumps, or building confidence and improving control, etc. I think this is the right approach because there is no such things as off-piste technique, high speed technique, steeps technique, bumps technique. There is just good fundamentals and then making the right adaptions to your core skills to match the terrain you're on and how you want to ski it. Oftentimes a very inexperienced skier will be working on the same fundamental part of ski technique as a very experienced skier, working on, for example, the first phase of the turn. In much the same way as a beginner golfer and the world's No. 1 will have coaching on improving their swing. Obviously the more experienced skier will work on that fundamental skill in much more detail, aiming to refine performance as much as possible, and often working in much more demanding settings than a less experienced skier could ever cope with. But ultimately they will be working on the same thing. I'm teaching a "Building Blocks" clinic later this month which strips back skiing to the core skills, and I think that works well for experienced skiers.
On top of that you also have tactical choices which an instructor can help with, and skiing terrain which you think is beyond your ability but an instructor can help you expand your comfort zone. One of the reasons week-long group lessons have been more successful for me than a few hours of private lessons is having the luxury of time to work on a wider range of things in more depth, as well as having time to work on tactics and experience in different terrain.
I know you prefer your action sideways, so please read "boarder" whenever I've written "skier". I'm pretty sure the same notions apply.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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One of the reasons week-long group lessons have been more successful for me than a few hours of private lessons is having the luxury of time to work on a wider range of things in more depth, as well as having time to work on tactics and experience in different terrain
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I think that's the key phrase to take away from this - and I agree with you. My last tuition was a half-day riding with an instructor in a small group of people I was on the trip with. I'm of the opinion that I doubt i'll improve my riding much now without taking some serious weeks on a mountain sometime, and I can't see that happening any time soon.
Thanks Rob, I'll stop annoying you now
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Poster: A snowHead
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Never had ski lessons bar two evenings at Brassingbourne barracks dry slope before my first ever ski trip some twenty odd years ago when I was about 30. So can't really comment. My skiing improved the most after I moved to Scotland and could ski more regularly in very variable conditions.
I have had a fair bit of xc coaching at HNSC, but not sure how that translates to my downhill/telemark skiing
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I enjoyed it to be honest. Probably first went about 4 years old and remember the usual getting cold etc but i dont ever remember not liking it. Last time I went was with school when I must have been 14 and I loved that as I liked to be competitive against other people in the group. Only time Ive dont it since was touring last year with a group (not sure if that counts as you dont really get any instruction about from where to go) My brother has young kids and he prefers them to ski with him. Personally when I have kids they will be going stright in ski school. Gives you the opportunity to get some proper skiing in and they will develop better with other kids around them to be competitive against.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ok, flip it around a bit - @rob@rar and any of the other instructors out there reading this thread; What do you find makes a good client? How should a 'not had a lesson in years and I do fine' week-or-so-a-year skier approach taking some instruction again, so they're not burning a pile of euros and a half-day of precious mountain time?
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A good client, is a person who comes to a lesson with any of the following, a specific goal and one the instructor can see is in need of work, an open mind to learning, someone that asks questions and someone that pushes you as an instructor! Not an exhaustive list but a good start. Some of my favorite clients have been the ones that make the smallest improvement as it means a lot to them and they have had to work for it.
@Richard_Sideways, In a morning you can make a client aware of a fundamental issue and ways to improve it, but once they leave you they can easily just ignore it. Some wont and there are some good self correction drills that are easy for people to understand if they are doing them right on their own.
Ultimately it is up to the learner to develop, and the instructor guides them through that process. Really interesting to read some of these experiences and see how people interpret there lessons. Instructors differ in approach, some have multiple approaches to lessons to adapt to the people in front of them, they are the good ones. Ski schools with an open teaching philosophy also tend to be the best ones. Rigid structured learning is not good in any scenario or environment.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ski school is quite a peek in a distant past. It was basically from the first year I could walk up to my teens. All with ESF in the French Alps. I do remember frozen shoe laces on stiff leather shoes held with spring binding evolving into block binding engraved/enamelled LOOK and so forth. I do also remember going there screaming, stomping my foot and dragging what seemed super heavy Elan skis - the whole muted by a bar of Ovaltine shoved in my pocket or mouth depending on the noise level produced - and then not wanting to leave the class because that is where I made friends. In between the three family winter holidays there was ski school delivered compliments of the real school - the one with books, pens and lessons to learn - during winter terms. Both were equally formal and can relate to Belch's experience in Austria. On the other hand, they taught me how to ski well, in any snow condition at any speed with any equipment as I would discover many years afterward once issued a pair of single size, old, winter patterned (read white) Dynastar pair of skis fitted with equally used and tired Fritschi (or Emery ?) bindings the whole handed over with a pair of battered Koflach para with a smirk by a quarter master of the French alpine brigade, then mostly staffed by us conscripts. This is the time I realised how technique saves a lot of sweat and nasty injuries.
To me there are three interlinked negative points that could stand in a way of taking lessons. Make only one of those point positive and one should consider ski lessons. 1. Ski lessons can be very tedious. 2. Ski instructors can sometimes be quite removed from the concept of "delivering an encouraging learning experience" or whatever else today's wording could be for some swanky ski school brochure. 3. Some learners can be unwilling to learn and/or be ready to take criticism on board.
Although at the time lessons maybe unpleasant, they have given me the chance to enjoy ski-ing in a very relaxed way. Technique allows enjoyment. Going down a piste, slope, couloir without having to worry about your technique or compensate the lack thereof with brute force leaves your minds sharp for an unexpected occurrence and wide open for the key reasons you are in the mountains : challenge and enjoyment.
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FAQ
