 Poster: A snowHead
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Just a straw pole ...
I am in the throws of my annual dilemma ... should I or shouldn't I buy an airbag? I held off last year and lived.
I was just wondering how many of you had been in, or close to, a potentially life threatening avalanche? I know that is a little like asking how long is a piece of string but I still thought it a valid question.
Being a relative backcountry newbie I don't have enough experience to assess the likelihood.
I know that the idea is to avoid them ... and I did ask a local off-piste guide in St Anton last year who said that he had never been in one ...
I would be grateful to know your experience ....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Isn't this a question with an obvious flaw rather like the infamous "can you hear me at the back"?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It would probably be better to invest in the education and training so that you can answer this yourself, to be honest.
Personally, kicked off one small windslab* but carried enough speed to just ski out of it, and it wasn't enough to bury a person anyway. Never been close to anything big either, couple of sloughs/slabs here and there from friends but small and isolated.
But rather than ask what a bunch of random people who ski in different places and at different abilities and with different risk tolerances do, better to look at what and where you actually ski.
So:
- Where do you usually ski
- What sort of terrain (alpine, trees, slope angles)
- How many days a season
- Do you always ski with a guide or often with peers
- Can you afford one or will it stretch your budget
They're nice to have, especially if you're exposing yourself a lot, but not a necessity. Especially if you, for example, ski one week a year mostly in mellow terrain without much exposure.
Edit:
*
https://vimeo.com/120691818
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 11-11-16 14:12; edited 2 times in total
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| Quote: |
| I am in the throws of my annual dilemma ... should I or shouldn't I buy an airbag? |
The statistics for survival when the bag is deployed, is deployed correctly and functions correctly is very high - though of course not guaranteed. If you factor in the non deployment, incorrect deployment, malfunctions then it becomes less convincing but nevertheless much better odds than not having one.
| Quote: |
| I was just wondering how many of you had been in, or close to, a potentially life threatening avalanche? |
I've never been in one or directly seen someone caught in one. I've seen/heard a few avalanches. I've been on some unstable surfaces occasionally that has made me a bit wary. Like most people of course, I do my best to avoid them! And statistically I would guess the actual chances are relatively slim. But of course it only has to happen once.
I think if you are skiing a fair amount off piste and reasonably afford it, there is no reason not to.
For the record I don't own one. My gnarly days have been hold as I ski with my young children, though we ski mellow off piste and last year we all started wearing transceivers and carrying shovel, etc. I would imagine as the kids get older we will think seriously about using them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Chile, 2011, mate of mine got the entry point wrong in a wide valley, huge cornice broke with him and the debris followed and near-buried him. By the time he stopped he had the top half of his head and one hand out of the snow. Didn't need an airbag on that occasion (and the other four of us would have probably got him out quickly), but it was near enough to a complete burial.
@clarky999's post above is bang on. Nice to have but you need to take a look at where and how you ski. (My mate still took 4 years to buy his airbag after the incident...)
I use one 90% of the time I'm offpiste, or more - it kinda makes sense once you paid the money for it, even if most of that time I'm not in dangerous terrain.
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@FoofyNoo, I would say it depends on your outlook/mindset. Would an airbag encourage you to take risks that you whouldn't take without one?
For example would you take more risks skiing if you were wearing a helmet and body armour, on the basis that you would be protected in the event of a fall, or would you wear a helmet and body armour to protect yourself in case you fell? A subtle difference maybe....
IMO An airbag shouldn't be a shortcut around risk assessment, it should be considered to a bit like a reserve parachute on a skydive. The 'main chute' is your Avalanche terrain analysis and risk assessment, which if done properly mean you never need your reserve, which should be a back you only need if something goes seriously wrong.
Apologies, a bit of a ramble 
(I've used airbags for the last 7 years.)
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Just to put a small perspective on on piste dangers... I have two very near misses on piste ( or on a controlled itinerary ). First was on a path leading from Schindlerkar back to the Schindler chair in St. Anton. Massive wet snow avalanche went down just behind me. Would almost certainly have killed me. The second was on the valley run in Kleinwalsertal. Also big and dangerous. Went down about 1 second behind me.
On top of that I have set off a slab which would deffo have been big enough to bury me...
A friend was killed in Norway last year. They had to dig down 3m to get him.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@FoofyNoo, bit of an if you have to ask question...
Most ski tourers I know don't own one and spend all their lives off piste
All the guides I know wear one when working at least, but that's risk for you (probability x exposure)
I know at least one person who has stopped using his because it was interfering with his judgement and he started taking risks he shouldn't.
Who knows...? Personally? My wife and I own one, as in, one (a chum had an extra one) So I think if either of us was out without the other we'd take it, but otherwise.. (that's 2 seasons now we haven't bought the 2nd...)
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| clarky999 wrote: |
- Where do you usually ski
- What sort of terrain (alpine, trees, slope angles)
- How many days a season
- Do you always ski with a guide or often with peers
- Can you afford one or will it stretch your budget |
You see .. that is the problem ... the answers to all of those questions may change from future day to day.
The kind of skiing I want to try doesn't necessarily give me an idea of what exactly is in front of me ... or the changing amount of snow on the slope .. and then it maybe too late to buy an airbag.
I want to experience Japan next year which is not steep but has a lot of snow ......
I also don't want to ski around on piste in the spring with an airbag, looking like a tit.
I don't know whether the approach should be similar to the reasons give by some for having plastic surgery .... I had it done mainly just to stop obsessing about it ...
Perhaps I should buy one just to get it out of my head......? Maybe a Jetforce model to avoid travel/refil horrors ....?
I dunno ....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have to say nowadays when there is unfortunately an avalanche fatality report, rightly or wrongly, my first reaction is often were they wearing an airbag, and was it triggered. A callous response I admit.
I've been on the same slope as 3 slab avalanches, but they were all triggered on purpose by my Guide, either through their local knowledge or by reading the terrain.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Steilhang wrote: |
Just to put a small perspective on on piste dangers... I have two very near misses on piste ( or on a controlled itinerary ). First was on a path leading from Schindlerkar back to the Schindler chair in St. Anton. Massive wet snow avalanche went down just behind me. Would almost certainly have killed me. The second was on the valley run in Kleinwalsertal. Also big and dangerous. Went down about 1 second behind me.
On top of that I have set off a slab which would deffo have been big enough to bury me...
A friend was killed in Norway last year. They had to dig down 3m to get him. |
Very sorry to hear about your friend.
If you don't mind me asking ... do you now wear an airbag?
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There is a Dangerous Earth Programme tonight at 8pm on BBC4 on the anatomy of an avalanche. Might be interesting.
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You know it makes sense.
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A few years ago Mrs SL, I and a couple of friends, were contemplating a well known off piste run after a heavy snow fall. Looking in the route was obscured by cloud, so we took an on piste run and came back, by which time the cloud had cleared. We took a group decision to enter, but stay on a ridge line. A third of the way down I spotted what I initially thought was someone looking for a lost ski. We decided to go and help, but as we approached we realised it was in fact a massive avalanche. As we arrived, so did a heli full of pisteurs. It is a very long story of chaotic scenes; people arriving without avi kit; others arriving with, but not knowing how to switch from send to receive or off; others (sick folk) trying to film everything. As a result the rescue organisers thought there were multiple victims. At the end of the day sadly a guy died (wearing a beacon but not air bag). As a direct result we invested in air bags, Mrs SL having asked a guide of our acquaintance if we would have the presence of mind to pull the handle - we were assured we would know when. We now, almost without exception, ski with the bags even if we are not really intent on going off piste that day. And we have never since skied the fatal route.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| FoofyNoo wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
- Where do you usually ski
- What sort of terrain (alpine, trees, slope angles)
- How many days a season
- Do you always ski with a guide or often with peers
- Can you afford one or will it stretch your budget |
You see .. that is the problem ... the answers to all of those questions may change from future day to day. |
Give it a go, general as it might be, for what you do NOW.
- What country/state/resort do you most commonly ski?
- If you're honest do you ski steep alpine slopes much, or more mellow blue/red run steepness slopes? Not that proximity to lifts is a proxy for safety, but how often are you skiing genuinely adventurous stuff, and how often the sort of runs that everyone knows about, get tracked out in a couple of hours, and get a lot of skier compaction breaking up slabs?
- Do you live in the mountains and ski twice a week? Do one week a year? 2,3,5 weeks a year?
- Generally shell out for a guide, or ski mostly with friends?
- If you drop £500 on an airbag, can you still comfortably afford and avi course/training with a guide/etc, or will that be a big chunk of your budget for the season?
If the answer to that is that you ski 40° alpine slopes twice a week in Colorado, often by yourself, and you spend £500 on weasel-poo coffee a week without batting an eye, it's likely to be a very sensible investment.
If generally you ski the mellow meadows and/or trees adjacent to blue and red pistes in Austria while wistfully looking up at the gnar above, one week a year, with a guide whenever you do anything more adventurous, and have to live off pasta + ketchup for a month to save for a lift pass, there's much less point.
Honestly if you can comfortably buy one it's hard to see a downside, but the fact you're asking suggests it's a big outlay for you, and the 'necessity' really depends on your habits (see probability x exposure).
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Poster: A snowHead
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I personally always wear one when going off piste .
But depending on your own terrain etc , you could hire one for when your going off piste , if your on a budget
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FoofyNoo wrote: |
| Steilhang wrote: |
Just to put a small perspective on on piste dangers... I have two very near misses on piste ( or on a controlled itinerary ). First was on a path leading from Schindlerkar back to the Schindler chair in St. Anton. Massive wet snow avalanche went down just behind me. Would almost certainly have killed me. The second was on the valley run in Kleinwalsertal. Also big and dangerous. Went down about 1 second behind me.
On top of that I have set off a slab which would deffo have been big enough to bury me...
A friend was killed in Norway last year. They had to dig down 3m to get him. |
Very sorry to hear about your friend.
If you don't mind me asking ... do you now wear an airbag? |
Yes. Was an early adopter. Have never used it in anger yet ( thankfully ).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| FoofyNoo wrote: |
Just a straw pole ... ... should I or shouldn't I buy an airbag? I held off last year and lived.
I was just wondering how many of you had been in, or close to, a potentially life threatening avalanche? ...
I would be grateful to know your experience .... |
Poll.
I've never been caught in 30 seasons of off piste in back country terrain.
The one avalanche I remember was a huge slope - a thousand vertical meters, maybe more. We'd just ridden down one aspect one-by-one and were looking up at the next line across the mountain. My mate called on the radio that he would ski cut it. We were far enough clear and back from the run-out zone. He cut it, and it cut away. Text-book style he rode out to the side, then rode down under the crown which was clearly taller than he was. If he'd been in it, we'd have dug, but I can't see how you'd survive the cement mixing on the way down.
Airbags? Rich people have had them for a while - if you have the money, you'll have the bag, because that's how people think. I've ridden with and without them, and rather like helmets, I don't feel they make a huge amount of difference. If you don't think it's safe, an airbag won't make it safe. Wearing them, you tend to forget about them, which is why you'll not pull the handle, but perhaps also why they probably won't increase your risk.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 10-11-16 23:41; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@philwig, ugh.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Got caught in a small, slowmoving avvy a few years ago in Chamonix.
Swept about ~20m by heavy treacle snow and got buried up to the chest.
Took 2 hours to dig two people plus kit out of the white concrete.
Safest way to avoid avalanches in the European Alps is to steer clear of North and East slopes after midday. That's where most slides happen, particularly at the western end of the range (France, Switzerland, Italy). Deep snow heats up and slips away.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| philwig wrote: |
| FoofyNoo wrote: |
Just a straw pole ... ... should I or shouldn't I buy an airbag? I held off last year and lived.
I was just wondering how many of you had been in, or close to, a potentially life threatening avalanche? ...
I would be grateful to know your experience .... |
Poll.
I've never been caught in 30 seasons of off piste in back country terrain.
The one avalanche I remember was a huge slope - a thousand vertical meters, maybe more. We'd just ridden down one aspect one-by-one and were looking up at the next line across the mountain. My mate called on the radio that he would ski cut it. We were far enough clear and back from the run-out zone. He cut it, and it cut away. Text-book style he rode out to the side, then rode down under the crown which was clearly taller than he was. If he'd been in it, we'd have dug, but I can't see how you'd survive the cement mixing on the way down.
Airbags? Rich people have had them for a while - if you have the money, you'll have the bag, because that's how people think. I've ridden with and without them, and rather like helmets, I don't feel they make a huge amount of difference. If you don't think it's safe, an airbag won't make it safe. Wearing them, you tend to forget about them, which is why you'll not pull the handle, but perhaps also why they probably won't increase your risk. |
Have you seen the POVs from guys skiing with heli ops in AK who have needed to pull?
I've seen a similar wet slab to Steilhang running all the way to Happy Valley on a face that is very heavily trafficked. Being a bigger cornflake there would buy you a chance vs being dug from the concrete and dirt.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Safest way to avoid avalanches in the European Alps is to steer clear of North and East slopes after midday. That's where most slides happen, particularly at the western end of the range (France, Switzerland, Italy). Deep snow heats up and slips away. |
Naive question: When you say north and east slopes do you imply the word 'facing' ? Or do you mean by a north slope, one that faces south? What do a the usual way of describing a slopes direction?
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There is a reason of course, why almost all avalanche stories are about the one you were nearly caught in...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FWIW I did a 4 day hut to hut tour last March, the guide strongly recommended an avi bag.
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15 years ago in Verbier on the red piste from Col des Gentianes to La Chaux that cuts across the SW facing slope of MtGele. It was fairly busy and we were the first to arrive at the avalanche across the track - wet snow/concrete (warm day pre-xmas), so reckon it had been there a couple of minutes. Looking up, there was plenty of more snow in the same condition either side of the debris - I could see somewhere safe (the restaurant on the ridge just before La Chaux) the other side of the avalanche, I couldn't see anyone in the debris. Didn't want to stay put, so crossed the debris and watched the avi rescue heli and dogs arrive with a cidre chaud on the terrace - was that the best thing to do? No idea if anyone was caught (but I think not from conversations in the restaurant) how people stuck the other side got back to Verbier as that track is the only pisted way back.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@ringingmaster, I think he definitely doesn't imply facing. Those slopes (N and E) in northern hemisphere don't get much/ any sun which is what he alludes to. Either he's confusing hemispheres or means the slopes on N and/or E side of valleys (that are S & W facing) hence get sun during warm part of day.
Good example of why it's important to be clear. I prefer discussing only the aspect of slope (ie what direction it faces) rather than its relative location to avoid confusion like this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Wildsmith wrote: |
| I couldn't see anyone in the debris. Didn't want to stay put, so crossed the debris and watched the avi rescue heli and dogs arrive with a cidre chaud on the terrace - was that the best thing to do? No idea if anyone was caught (but I think not from conversations in the restaurant) how people stuck the other side got back to Verbier as that track is the only pisted way back. |
Well best thing from a personal safety perspective probably. As for best thing to do - flip your transceiver to search and scan the debris in the immediate area until pisteurs arrive (ideally with a lookout to watch for secondary slides).
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| Quote: |
FWIW I did a 4 day hut to hut tour last March, the guide strongly recommended an avi bag.
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That's quite an interesting recommendation given that the weight penalty is not trivial on a 4 day hut to hut trip.
I use one when I'm skiing with mates and not with the family so its only a handful of days a year. I paid end of season / last seasons model prices but for me it seemed a much more justifiable expense than an extra pair of skis.
I find the moment when I stop to fit the handle quite a good pause for thought - why is it that I feel the need for it now? Should I be skiing this? Let's go over the risk assessment again.
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You know it makes sense.
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@FoofyNoo,
I would recommend using one for all off-piste. If you are skiing 3-4 weeks a year off-piste then it would be good to buy one. Some guiding operations will supply them as a matter of course. You can also rent them in many resorts.
I have used one for nine years since I was prompted by an incident where I could have been caught in one whilst skiing in Chamonix. I have been in the vicinity and close to a number of avalanches, having an airbag could make a difference to you.
I usually ski with mountain guides (or similar) and I have done so for over 40 weeks now. In no way does if effect my judgement. It is just another piece of safety kit for me. It does not consciously effect my decision making at all. I am using it to reduce the perceived risk of injury to myself, just like my helmet and back protector.
So I would see if the guides offer them, or rent one or buy one. You only live once.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Scarpa, at last someone mentions the "H" and "F" word(s)
And it's not just skiing where these can be applied to - cycling as well, trying to MTB with your mates in the dark, have heard of two instances this week of bad crashes and if they'd be on their own doubt they would have taken the risks.
I do a lot of touring and does depend on conditions and time of year, but on the whole I tour without my avy bag.
We're doing a hut to hut with some unguarded next year down to Nice - so no way could I use by avy bag for that anyway!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i don't tend to use my bag while touring either, unless it is shortish skin ups to get to ski lines. I am also very happy to turn round and back off a route if any worrying signs are observed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Piste skiing has given me more near death experiences. Worse being taken out by a GS racer on an open piste in Tignes. I tend to wearing Body armour with back protector and I think that's useful off piste too.
I'm toying with a air bag system as hope to have more time in resort this year but I'm not sure I'd be touring with one.
Funnily enough,.other than scarpas gully incident the other avalanche I witnessed was on a backcountry training course. Let's just say the training was 'real' in some complex conditions last Jan.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ringingmaster wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
Safest way to avoid avalanches in the European Alps is to steer clear of North and East slopes after midday. That's where most slides happen, particularly at the western end of the range (France, Switzerland, Italy). Deep snow heats up and slips away. |
Naive question: When you say north and east slopes do you imply the word 'facing' ? Or do you mean by a north slope, one that faces south? What do a the usual way of describing a slopes direction? |
Usual practice is to describe a slope by the direction it faces.
For northern hemisphere
A North slope, is north facing, it will be to the north of a peak or ridge, it will be shaded for most or all of the time.
These slopes are more prone to avalanche, as they don't get heat cycles and the snow doesn't transform, settle and bond as quickly. Hence staying dangerous for days longer than other aspects
For the same reason the snow stays colder and in better condition for skiiing on those northern slopes.
East facing slopes get sun in morning and then lose it from midday
South facing get sun most of the day, these are the first to get slushy and bare muddy patches
West facing get it in afternoon, when the temperatures are also higher and hence tend to suffer worse than East facing
Take a look at the excellent resources online from HAT, Henry's avalanche talks.
Or even better, go to one of his talks.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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On my first week skiing there was an avalanche on the road up to Val Thorens. The transfer bus from the airport could not get up the road that evening, and so one night of the ski holiday was missed and one night in a hotel by lake Annecy was the alternative.
People often think of avalanche risk when skiing, it is also worth pointing out the roads attract avalanches, particularly roads clogged with coaches. (which are clumsy when turning hairpin corners which are typical on high altitude resorts)
That is a pretty close call with an avalanche.
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I've been caught in two avalanches. The first in St Anton, I was swept over a ridge, through trees and onto a slope below. Somehow missed everything and got spat out before the snow disappeared over the next ridge. Air Bag wouldn't have helped.
Second one in Japan, part of a group of 6, first two set off the avalanche, they were smashed into trees and were killed instantly. Air Bag would not have helped.
I echo all posts that recommend education. Not being in or in a situation where one could occur is your priority.
Get educated, go on a course, ski with qualified guide, learn, practice, question, repeat.
I still ski off piste. I did invest in an Air Bag after Japan, but i am probably one of the biggest pain in the back bottoms to ski with now, as I always ask why the guide thinks a particular slope / route is safe, both so i can learn more and also to check that he is doing his job 
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I have been skiing about 30 seasons & a couple of summer seasons.
I know / knew far too many people killed in avalanches, at least 10 people over the last 20 years. It is a harsh side of living in the big mountains. Around 15 years ago, I was buried myself for around 20 - 25 mins. I purchased my first airbag 3 years ago but would certainly not take it for every outing.
Being conservative, having an informed & reasonable attitude & making good decisions are more important factors IMHO than relying upon equipment. Training is a great help and a very worthwhile investment for yourself & those who are on the mountain with you. Once you start getting serious about out of bounds skiing you have a responsibility to others as well as yourself.
The bags are as light as 3 kg now so it is no longer a big drama to ski with them & if you find yourself pushing / being pushed that bit too far or are lacking in experience it could be a very wise insurance policy.
Personally, having nearly paid the price for my own mistake, I eventually succumbed to equipping myself but would really really rather avoid having to deploy my bag & try very hard to behave accordingly however it is reassuring to know that it is there just in case.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Specifically on the title question - I have never been near an avalanche. I've been on snow that "felt bad" and where there were some nasty noises that made me climb back up the hill.
On the other hand, back in the mid '90s my best mate's cousin was killed in an avalanche at La Grave. That is always in our mind when conditions get questionable.
Another ski friend of mine was caught in an avalanche but unharmed above Courmayeur when skiing with a guide. He has since been down a crevasse (for forty minutes!) also while skiing with a (different) guide. Pretty unlucky because he is no headbanger (former Army helicopter pilot).
It is so much better to learn from other people's mistakes than your own if you can manage it!
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What is market rental price for airbags looking like now? The one time I used one was on off piste day in Cervinia with the local guide place and I think it was only 10 euro extra for the bag
If that is a standard price (I'm assuming its not) then it would make a lot more sense for someone like me who skis max ten days a year, no maintenance hassle either
I would otherwise buy one but with two kids now I'm a lot more conservative
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FAQ
