 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi --
There must be an answer to this but I searched and saw nothing.
I have a trip planned for the second and third week of January, flying to Munich and going to places like Selva Gardena, Ischgl, Gerlos, and Arosa.
I live in Montana, USA and am comfortable driving in the snow, but on an extended winter ski trip here you'd be facing miles and miles of snow and ice on the road and almost everyone has four wheel or all wheel drive.
What is the general consensus: should I seek a rental car in Munich which has all wheel drive? It seems that most agencies rent cars with winter tires; some rent SUVs but there is no guarantee that they are all wheel drive even if you request it. Chains are available but the cost seems ridiculous -- like 20 euro a day.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No.
Get a front wheel drive car with winter tyres. Buy some chains in a supermarket.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No, what @RobinS said. And make sure you can put the chains on, quickly, when necessary. If you're not familiar with them, practice.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Make sure your hire car is winterized and comes with chains. Don't rely on buying chains, they may not have the right ones in stock, and you may get the wrong ones for your vehicle and cause damage. They may cost a fair bit to hire, but if you damage the vehicle with ones you've bought you can be sure you'll be screwed by the rental company for a fortune in repair charges. But this is a risk analysis and you have to balance cost with risk.
A lot of 4x4 rentals can't take chains so in some respects, you may do better hiring a conventional car that can take them, as they can be mandatory if conditions are bad. It'd be really annoying to have your 4x4 held at a chain checkpoint by the police just because you didn't have chains. Again, this doesn't happen very often but it does happen.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If you use some of the major rentals then they will charge 20 euro a day but this will top out at 35 euros in total e.g. Avis have a limit.
I've got 12 days with chains with them for 35euros.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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If you use some of the major rentals then they will charge 20 euro a day but this will top out at 35 euros in total e.g. Avis have a limit.
I've got 12 days with chains with them for 35euros.
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@LaForet, how often is a 4*4 with winter tyres stopped? (I believe winter tyres are mandatory from Munich).
I can't put chains on my car but of course have winter tyres and have never had a whisker of an issue in 10 years living between Geneva and Chamonix (in fairness I don't drive above 1,400 that often).
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It happens. Rarely, but it does. As I said, it's a risk analysis. I've once been in GVA when a snowbomb hit and only chained vehicles were able to drive outside the city. Pretty unlikely, but I'm leaving it up to the poster to decide. I've been in the same position SFR to Tahoe and decided to go for a 4x4 without chains. It turned out fine but I concluded that we might as well have hired a cheaper conventional car with chains and we would have coped as well with bad snow (as a 4x4 without chains) and would have been let through any police checks, so it covers more scenarios.
Of course, what will probably happen is the the PO will fork out all this extra for chains and that will virtually guarantee they won't be needed. But that's life ....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@LaForet, but you sure 4*4 & snow tyres stopped? Generally there's a derogation for properly equipped AWD/4*4 ...
Even at Geneva altitude (& Jura) I've been waved through in pretty heavy snow falling and 10-20 cms settled (Anything more and I think I'd need a plough on front...)
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It's worth buying insurance before you come to cover the damage excess on the hire car, which is usually €1,000 to €2,000. An annual insurance policy costs about £30, a lot cheaper than the insurance that the rental company will try to sell you. I know lots of people don't bother with excess insurance but when your parking a car in a frozen car park full of small children staggering about in ski boots carrying skis and pole it's good to have.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes, an annual excess policy makes sense, whether you're driving in Morzine or Marseilles.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@cloud cult, So a quick look on Europcar (differently branded in the U.S I think, but I can't recall who).
Winter tyres are included for free up to 24 days from Munich as they are a legal requirement. I would presume (!) all the companies do this.
If budget not an object, they had an Audi A6 Quattro as an option (or equivalent). I'd think it reasonable that if you've specified a Quattro (by definition 4x4) then "equivalent" would have to be just as capable.
In which case I wouldn't bother with chains. The range of conditions where "retail" chains work better than 4x4 with snow tyres is so tiny, that they'll be useless anyway.
Even better, Sixt have a whole range of SUVs, some of which are only available as AWD/4WD https://www.sixt.com/php/reservation/directoffer?uci=11&rci=11&uda=01%2F12%2F2017&rda=01%2F26%2F2017&uti=1200&rti=1000&ctyp=P and all include winter tyres.
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We've passed through loads of checkpoints in our 4x4 in snowy weather, and no-one has even given the tyres a glance let alone made us stop and put chains on, although we do have a pair if we need them.
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You know it makes sense.
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@cloud cult, 2WD and winter tyres (all cars rented in munich have these) will be more than enough.
95% of the roads you will drive on will be low valley roads which are very well managed. If you are lucky/unlucky enough to have a big snow event whilst on holiday, it's likely that the in resort side roads will be your biggest issue - which the chains in combination with winter tyres will be fine.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'd agree with AthersT - Go for a conventional car with winter tyres and chains in the boot. I think some of my comments have been a bit misunderstood. The main reason for going for this options against a 4x4 that can't take chains is that a car with winters will handle most conditions, and if they're really bad, or you have an icy drive out of your parking etc, then the chains will handle it. This gives a car with winters and chains an advantage over a 4x4 with winters but no chains in the 'icy slope' 1-in-20 scenario, but I've seen it.
Obviously, a 4x4 with winters and chains is the ideal, but a lot of the hire 4x4s can't take chains, as has been said. I currently have an xDrive 3 series with winters, but I still carry chains, and I've only had to use them twice in ten years. Once, when picking someone up in the evening and having to drive through deep snow in the village down the mountain after a day of heavy snowfalls. And another occasion where a steep drive from the apartment block where we were staying was turned into an ice sheet overnight and it was our leaving day, so we had to get going.
I'd agree that the 4x4 with no chains vs mountain police is a very unlikely scenario. When I mentioned the Geneva example, I meant that even 4x4s with winters were getting stuck - you needed chains to get around, not that the police were stopping un-chained cars.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'd agree with AthersT - Go for a conventional car with winter tyres and chains in the boot. I think some of my comments have been a bit misunderstood. The main reason for going for this options against a 4x4 that can't take chains is that a car with winters will handle most conditions, and if they're really bad, or you have an icy drive out of your parking etc, then the chains will handle it.
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I'd agree too, this is what I'd probably do myself unless budget no object in which case... We only have a 4x4 because we have a mountain based business so are up there frequently and sometimes absolutely have to get up there...(but we don't have chains).
In 10 years of full time living in Geneva I've never felt the need for chains. The hill to our mountain property, admittedly only rises from 1,060m but is about a 1 in 6 gradient. @LaForet, I am under the perception that your property is rather higher and up a rather smaller road?
I can't imagine a situation where we got stuck and we've been in pretty heavy and dense snow (Alpine grade, not UK)...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For a two week trip you should be able to rent a conventional 2WD for around 300 euros whilst a 4x4 will likely be double that if not more, so for me save the money and use it for a day or two of off piste guiding, a better hotel or some nice spa days/hours.
FWIW - I have seen more tooled-up BMW X5's/Porsche Cayenne's in ditches at the side of the road or stuck on hills than Fiat Pandas and there are alot of Fiat Pandas.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@AthersT,
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BMW X5's/Porsche Cayenne's in ditches
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I submit that they were almost certainly running on "Mud & Snow" (which are generally rubbish in winter) tyres and not winter tyres. Unless you stopped to verify their "snowflakes"?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@under a new name, I'd prefer "lack of driver ability" or "lack of common sense". 
Think it's more related to people making the conscious decision to drive to the conditions or not - and by driving a big 4x4, it giving you a false sense of security.
PS - I know most people DO take due care and drive to the road conditions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@AthersT,
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BMW X5's/Porsche Cayenne's in ditches
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I submit that they were almost certainly running on "Mud & Snow" (which are generally rubbish in winter) tyres and not winter tyres. Unless you stopped to verify their "snowflakes"? |
I think that many people underestimate the need for good winter tyres when they're in 4x4, and whilst I may be slightly over generalising, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this applied to many Cayenne drivers.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@AthersT, could be, but I do sometimes check snowflakes if I am walking past big/posh SUVs and very rarely do they have snow tyres on. Most of course, are tourists.
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I have seen more tooled-up BMW X5's/Porsche Cayenne's in ditches at the side of the road or stuck on hills than Fiat Pandas and there are alot of Fiat Pandas.
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Me too. It was striking, the day after "Snowmageddon" the winter before last. It's mostly driver idiocy. One French driver of a Porsche Cayenne which ended up stuck in the roadside wall of snow left by the snowploughs a few years ago was fortunate that we were able to pull him out, with a Fiat Multipla (though I did have to put chains on, to have enough traction to shift the ugly great thing). I didn't notice the insignia on the tyres. He'd been coming down the (very gentle) gradient, as I was going up. I hadn't needed chains till then, though I was aware that my traction (on four newish snow tyres) was marginal and was driving on eggshells.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I would say yes get a 4x4.
Munich has a great selection of vehicles (well i use Avis and they do).
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@RichClark, it also must be said that there are "winter" tyres and "winter" tyres.
Across 10 years we are now on pair 3. Michelins. By far the best. The Bridgestone in between were crap.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@under a new name, the same is true of summer tyres to be fair. I normally use Conti Sport Contacts but tried a budget/mid range (Nexan???) that was scary in the wet and I'm not a particularly fast driver.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've had no problems with Nokians (snowflake marked) on my all wheel drive Forester in some really bad Alpine conditions (3 seasons), but one thing that catches many people out is the sheer weight of larger 4x4s. When you are coming down a steep section you need to keep the speed down, a Cayenne or X5 is almost 2.5 tonnes and that is a lot of inertia to control. Also never had a problem in friends 2 wheel drive cars with proper winter tyres fitted.
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| under a new name wrote: |
I submit that they were almost certainly running on "Mud & Snow" (which are generally rubbish in winter) tyres and not winter tyres. Unless you stopped to verify their "snowflakes"? |
I agree....after my Wife's CRV had a nasty out of control moment on a snowy descent (thankfully control regained in time) using M+S tyres, we immediately fitted proper winters afterwards. Having just got a Land Rover Discovery Sport myself, mine is going in to get winters fitted next week. We both carry chains too just in case, the Land Rover having to have special ones that don't fit round the back but bolt onto one of the wheel nuts - pricy but a doddle to fit.
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You know it makes sense.
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@RichClark, the same is indeed true of cheap summer tyres.
@Whitters, those special chain things are a thing of wonder
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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