 Poster: A snowHead
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I've copied and pasted it as the link did not work for me again as you have to subscribe - but if you search for FT Pink Snow La Grave you might find it
La Meije, a glacier-scarred 3,984m mountain 80km east of Grenoble, was one of the last major peaks in the Alps to be conquered — its intimidating faces resisting all attempts until 1877. Today, La Grave, the village clustered around an 11th-century church at the foot of the mountain, retains a similarly forbidding reputation, often spoken of as Europe’s most extreme ski resort. Its handful of hotels and guesthouses accommodate a maximum of 700 tourists (compare that with Val d’Isère’s 30,000 beds). On the mountain it offers just 12km of marked runs; the rest is “ski sauvage” — raw, unprotected, off-piste routes that drop 2,150 vertical metres from the high glaciers, via couloirs no wider than a ski, to the banks of the Romanche river.
The portal into this fabled ski area is La Grave’s cherished téléphérique. Its two 400hp engines have sent the rainbow-coloured “pulse gondola” creeping upwards from the village for the past 40 years.
Sleepy at best, La Grave has been dormant of late: rockfalls above the Chambon tunnel closed the main road into town from Lyon and Grenoble in July 2015. A closure-prone relief road has done little to alleviate the situation; alternative routes add two hours, and a new tunnel is not due for completion until 2018. This inaccessibility might add mystique to La Grave’s skiing but it’s choking the lifeblood out of the village.
Access is not the only storm cloud swirling above La Grave: the future of its raison d’être, the gondola, is also in doubt. The téléphérique was built in 1976 by Denis Creissels, still the director of Téléphérique des Glaciers de la Meije (TGM), the company that runs it. Now in his early eighties, the indefatigable Creissels remains besotted with his “mistress” (“She’s expensive but fun”) but change is on the horizon — the 30-year lease on the lift granted to Creissels by the village council is due to expire next June.
Creissels’ loyalty to the téléphérique is shared by the 15 men and women who operate the lift, and who refer to it affectionately as “l’entreprise familial” (the family business). David Le Guen, TGM’s commercial director, says: “We know all its sounds, rhythms and quirks — the téléphérique is part of our heritage.”
If Creissels is the indulgent godfather in the tale of La Grave, Sweden’s Pelle Lang is the founding father. Lang first came to La Grave in 1984; a ski bum living in Chamonix, he’d heard local guides talking reverently of the tiny village with big skiing. He fell under its spell and, with his wife Ayse, purchased the Hotel des Alpes in 1989. “I first came here with a backpack, skis and a car, following a dream,” he smiles. “Back in the early days, the lift operators would call us in the morning to ask how many clients we had and then open the lift for us.”
La Grave is a place for enthusiasts, and should be run by enthusiasts
Joost Van Zundert
La Grave slowly blossomed as a ski destination as Lang pioneered the Skiers Lodge guide service, combining accommodation with ski guiding. Word spread, particularly when US extreme skier Doug Coombs chose it as his local ski hill, until tragically falling to his death in the Couloir de Polichinelle in 2006.
The téléphérique came to symbolise the liberation of freeriding, in defiance of more corporate, safety-obsessed ski areas. “La Grave is for people seeking something other than ‘Disneyland’ resorts, and needs to be preserved for its unique identity as a wild, natural place,” says Josefine As, another Swedish transplant to the village. However, like all locals, she recognises the difficulty of balancing preservation and financial viability.
Cue what some La Grave devotees see as the “baddies”: the neighbouring resort of Alpe d’Huez and nearby Les 2 Alpes, which are both rumoured to be pitching for the téléphérique lease (applications are due by October 2 . Some fear more pistes will be created in La Grave, or even that all three resorts could be joined by a network of new lifts, undermining the unique nature of the village. Says Le Guen: “If tomorrow La Grave is just piste, then we will be but one small resort among many bigger ones. Today we are the smallest of the great ski destinations.”
An alternative comes in the form of Belgian Joost Van Zundert, a long-term La Grave resident who is spearheading a crowdfunding bid for the téléphérique. “La Grave is a place for enthusiasts, and should be run by enthusiasts,” he says. With €1m from private investors, Van Zundert aims to raise a further million plus €250,000 from crowdfunding, which will commence if his project is shortlisted by the town council this autumn. For now, the only sure thing is that to guarantee skiing the celebrated slopes before they change, you must go this winter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Excellent article - highly informative.
Thans for sharing weathercam.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Gämsbock, So a €1,000 minimum investment - wonder what you get for that - I'm seeing Robin and Marlon who run the Edelweiss soon so will ask some questions.
In fact I've just emailed Joost asking him some questions as OH will do a follow up piece for StyleAltitude as I know my mates would do a €1,000 and probably me 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The whole 'Pink Snow' supplement in this weekend's FT is very good. Puts the Telegraph monthly mag to shame.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The La Grave era is coming to an end 
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There is an error in the article that I suspect has come from my report of the death of Doug Coombs and had then rippled out across the interwebs. It should be Couloir Polichinelle or Couloir du Polichinelle. Polichinelle (Mr Punch) being a boy. Just in case you mention this on your website.
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@Weathercam, would be interested in more info on this as/when you get it. can't find much on the 'net.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Weathercam, Did you find out what your 1000 Euro (£10k!) investment gets you?
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@Snowsartre, no he never got back !!!
Had someone round for dinner last night and her "ex" and the consortium he heads up put their bid in last week, and she thinks they will get it and good news is that there will be no expansion of links to LDA etc
Then I have friends who run the Edelweiss coming round on Tuesday for dinner (we're very social here) so will get their take on it.
And so it goes on and on - and another article this time in the Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/articles/is-this-the-end-of-cult-off-piste-skiing-in-la-grave/
Love the quote from Pelle about what it takes to ski La Grave
“You should be able to ski black and double black runs with control and confidence... [and] off piste in all types of snow: firm, wet, heavy, and breakable crust.”
Note that there’s no mention of fresh, light powder – anyone can handle that.
That's what I always say about people that go skiing powder in Japan 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
Note that there’s no mention of fresh, light powder – anyone can handle that.
That's what I always say about people that go skiing powder in Japan |
Thankfully that's not my experience, otherwise I'd be out of a job.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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9 bids in, now up to Mairie, Commune and Hautes Alpes Conseil - decision will be announced at the final day of the Derby.
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You know it makes sense.
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Bit late now?????
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@KenX, if the link works so you can see all the copy text, (though was a little flakey on my mobile), finally got it to work on my desktop - you can sort of see where they are coming from.
As a friend posted on FaceBook
An interesting project for our little home town La Grave. Things will change in June 2017 when the lease for the lift expires and a new player takes over. If you support or don't support Joost Van Zundert and Signal de la Grave's original, local approach to run the lift, you can still donate a sum to the crowdfunding project on indiegogo for support of our small community.
IE it's about support of the La Grave community and to keep it that way, and pressure those who make the final decision to keep it the way it is and not let a major player come in and ruin it.
But I do agree, when it was first announced I thought it was some sort of Crowd Funding IPO
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I suspect that keeping it wild is what is putting off the punters in sufficient numbers to make the lift profitable. So unless they can find some rich benefactor (Creissels used to fill this role to some extent) the lift system won't run as a commercial venture. Ski bums living out of their vans in the car park and eating pot noodles all winter is not a great target market. The area needs to (re)attract skiers from the big catchment areas of Grenoble and Lyon but except for a hardcore the product is no longer attractive to the majority of local skiers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think you're probably right @davidof, when I ask people who rent our apartment if they will be taking advantage of the off piste most say no. Completely unscientific but I suspect the vaste majority of holiday skiers are looking for nicely groomed blues and reds. 'Snowheads' are probably a minority and not hugely representative of the skiing public??
I wonder what percentage of skiers would be able to cope with La Grave?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I stayed there for the ice climbing before I skied there. Saying that, most people who can ski bumps, blacks and reds would be fine with the easy routes down as long as they are happy with non groomed snow, the guide can advise them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| Saying that, most people who can ski bumps, blacks and reds would be fine with the easy routes down as long as they are happy with non groomed snow, the guide can advise them. |
Disclaimer: These are just some random thoughts and observations.
But why ski the ski bum scralped snow of the Vallons when you can ski nice sunny pistes at Serre Chevalier or l'Alpe d'Huez? and they don't even need to pay for a guide to ski some little adventures at l'Alpe d'Huez like the Charbonierre. You would have thought that la Grave had the ideal product to take advantage of the freeride revolution but generalizing, the Grenoblois (a catchment area of 800,000 people) fall into 4 main groups
1. local riders who take advantage of the local resorts when they can: les 7 laux, St Pierre, lots of secret spots up on the Vercors
2. ski touring is very big, a swathe of locals can't afford 40 euro + lift passes every weekend and get their kicks out of touring the mountain ranges, if they are heading out east they'll go straight past la Grave to the Lauteret or up into the Ecrins
3. well heeled skiers, the research and engineer crowd who ski the big resorts with fast, efficient lift systems, they don't want to be hanging around with ski bums for a 40 year old lift
4. families: again the local resorts fill their needs with ticket prices from a few euros upwards
La Grave is a curio, set in aspic, nothings gonna change their world. To some extent its heyday was 30 years ago before fat skis when people from Grenoble would take the day off work to go up there and maybe do a couple of descents on their rinky dinky skinny skis. This naturally limited the skiing and meant there was more chance of finding better conditions. Now the seasonaire crew can ski out the main runs in short order leaving gnarly bumps and icy rutted tracks. Everyone around Grenoble used to talk about la Grave at one time as a unique experience, now, outside of a few diehards on Skipass, it is rarely mentioned. Perhaps it is an aging population too? The average age where I work is 48! (one of the major local companies), people have families and perhaps not the fitness to want to ski somewhere like la Grave now?
Could la Grave work as an alternative route into les Deux Alpes ? Not sure that is a goer as the lift co would look at upgrading the Mont de Lans lifts first, and in all probability will invest in the Alpe d'Huez link via Freney as an alternative access. Of course with Chinese money coming into the French ski resorts via the CdA who knows? Maybe la Grave will be developed for Chinese guests  ?
If there are 9 bids for the contract there is obviously interest. People think they can make it work. Developing a link up to le Chazelet is an idea. Can la Grave itself be developed? There are big security issues I think and the village is a bit low for reliable snow - they'd have to put snowmaking in lower down. Cresseils doesn't think there is a big enough market for putting in a fast lift - which would increase the number of skiers of course.
So perhaps keeping it pretty much as it is, is the future but they need to find a way of increasing the number of skiers over a season.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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An outsider's opinion. With some effort I can ski the hardest black runs in any resort, but a good and safe-ish off-piste experience is relatively hard to find. Many resorts have started adding 'itinerary' routes - marked and patrolled, but not groomed.
One thing deterring people like me from trying La Grave is it's difficulty and apparent unpredictability. I often ski with people who want to have an easy option down, even if they don't use it. If poo-poo hits the fan and conditions are terrible, you can always cop out. With only one lift, there's also room for experimentation with guides. Perhaps you could do a pay-per-run, have guides wait at the top until a group is full, and then ski down together. Paying for guides is cheaper that way.
I think La Grave could draw crowds of people if they offered a single red-level run down, basic safety facilities, signs and a route map with difficulty grades. As long as you don't groom the snow and alter the landscape, most of what people love about LG will stay the way it is.
Or maybe I'm stupid and LG is fine exactly the way it is. But in the end somebody has to pay for maintenance. Catering to an elite-only audience makes things expensive.
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Few points
The lift company, does believe it or not, make a profit - probably one reason why there are quite a few bids.
I've been skiing / snow boarding there every year since 97 so I'm one of those old farts and many people I met there are now in their 40's and 50's.
I know the main runs and variations well hence I do not need a guide but with the advent of fatter and fatter skis the place is getting skied out very quickly now and hence if you're with a guide you can do more interesting terrain away from the main runs, though you have to be a good skier.
Last season I only went over three or four times and it was only right at the end of the season when it was back to classic La Grave, and why ?
The times before that I'd skied great untracked in Serre Che the day before, then go to LG next day and have trouble finding untracked as so many groups are there lapping the mountain on their fat skis.
I was talking to some Scandis who were with a UCPCA group from Serre and they were moaning about how the day before in Serre they had a great day and now in LG they were having trouble finding untracked and they'd wished they'd stayed there!
So at the end of the season when it's raining in Serre to around 2,200 that's when LG is great as there are not so many groups around so you get to ski untracked all morning - though by Noon it's getting heavy.
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| Quote: |
You would have thought that la Grave had the ideal product to take advantage of the freeride revolution
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I think your analysis is basically right. la Grave is great on a powder day. The powder doesn't last very long these days and at low tide the main runs are often not much fun to ski. A few years back, ten days after the last snowfall, I would have backed myself to find good skiing in Verbier. While I love skiing in la Grave, I wouldn't ever had anything like the same level of confidence about finding good snow. That said, I only have about 40 days on the hill there, I definitely wouldn't consider myself an expert.
The things that are fun to ski at low tide are beyond most people. This is either because they are fall/die dangerous (Pan de Rideau - count me out) or because they require mountaineering ability (La Voute and the rest of the Chirouze sector - on a good day with the right team).
That's not most freeriders. I think people want something else and other resorts offer better options - both for lift assisted touring and for skiing from the lifts - much of the time.
I want them to succeed but I don't see what the product is right now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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What would worry me, if I were investing is for 2015
Turnover: 1 537 264, Operating Costs: 1 966 903
That probably means the lift is doing something like 40 to 50K skier days in a year (including summer operations). What are they selling? an average 300 lift passes per day during the winter season? It is a dichotomy though, fewer skiers, skiing the easily accessible area out more quickly.
The treasury has gone from 1.1 Million in 2011 to 234K in 2015.
The situation will probably not be better for this year: 2016 with the limited road access.
Even with a lift that is relatively inexpensive to run anyone investing would need to have deep pockets to cover poor years.
I'm curious if any larger operators have put in a bid and what they think they could do better.
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| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
You would have thought that la Grave had the ideal product to take advantage of the freeride revolution
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I think your analysis is basically right. la Grave is great on a powder day. The powder doesn't last very long these days and at low tide the main runs are often not much fun to ski. A few years back, ten days after the last snowfall, I would have backed myself to find good skiing in Verbier. While I love skiing in la Grave, I wouldn't ever had anything like the same level of confidence about finding good snow. That said, I only have about 40 days on the hill there, I definitely wouldn't consider myself an expert.
The things that are fun to ski at low tide are beyond most people. This is either because they are fall/die dangerous (Pan de Rideau - count me out) or because they require mountaineering ability (La Voute and the rest of the Chirouze sector - on a good day with the right team).
That's not most freeriders. I think people want something else and other resorts offer better options - both for lift assisted touring and for skiing from the lifts - much of the time.
I want them to succeed but I don't see what the product is right now. |
This and Weathercam's post kinda sum it up for me too. I've loved skiing La Grave each time I've been but probably haven't been for 4 or 5 years because you do need the conditions. In fact last couple of times I've been the ratio of La Grave: Other places days has been around 2:3 if not worse. So essentially its a place which is only really it's exceptional self only on the days of fresh snow (&maybe day after if you don't mind sloppy seconds) or if you're into serious Gnar (I'm become less & less so - I've skied enough great runs to know that I don't really want to die in pursuit of another). Problem is not "mainstream" enough to have a broad market appeal (though the French families I have seen having a day's adventure pootling down Vallons or whatever seem to be having a fine time) but the "core" support not enough to have secure profitability. Answer is probably attracting back more of the people like myself who do like it on a "use it or lose it" type threat. Problem is that that threat doesn't entirely work - it will always be skiable for those willing to make the effort from L2A even if the lift does shut.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This just in from Skiers Lodge this morning - and bearing in mind some of the posts above for what a 21st century free skier really wants?
though no mention of oodles of untracked
Dear Skier,
How about a skiing adventure in the French Alps with a team of professionals that has an understanding for what a 21st century free skier really wants?
The Skiers Lodge in La Grave is perfectly positioned for the biggest lift accessed off piste skiing in the world with 2150 vertical metres (7,050+feet) of freeriding terrain to enjoy. The Skiers Lodge caters for groups or for the independent advanced skiers who would like 3 or 6-days-guiding and lodging at an all inclusive price.
La Grave, de la Meije is not a ski resort. Ski resorts adapt to skiers whereas here the skier must adapt to the mountain. This is best achieved by the guidance received from the experienced guides within the Guide Service allowing the client to enter terrain otherwise inaccessible to him/her in a safe manner.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
What would worry me, if I were investing is for 2015
Turnover: 1 537 264, Operating Costs: 1 966 903
That probably means the lift is doing something like 40 to 50K skier days in a year (including summer operations). What are they selling? an average 300 lift passes per day during the winter season? It is a dichotomy though, fewer skiers, skiing the easily accessible area out more quickly.
The treasury has gone from 1.1 Million in 2011 to 234K in 2015.
The situation will probably not be better for this year: 2016 with the limited road access.
Even with a lift that is relatively inexpensive to run anyone investing would need to have deep pockets to cover poor years.
I'm curious if any larger operators have put in a bid and what they think they could do better. |
Interesting stats.
It does look like La Grave will need some good old French communist state subsidies if it is to survive longterm without a L2A takeover.
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| Quote: |
Turnover: 1 537 264, Operating Costs: 1 966 903
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And I guess the bigger problem is that at somepoint it will need major investment in the lift and that is just a non-starter (it's one thing milking out existing assets, it's entirely another investing in new ones).
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You know it makes sense.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Turnover: 1 537 264, Operating Costs: 1 966 903
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And I guess the bigger problem is that at somepoint it will need major investment in the lift and that is just a non-starter (it's one thing milking out existing assets, it's entirely another investing in new ones). |
Note those figures were just one year. As Weathercam says, they have been making a profit recently. This year may not be so good with the tunnel closure.
The region is currently giving out 50 million in subsidies for snow making and the valley is picking up some of that money - although I don't think la Grave are using any of it. So there is some aid money out there.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
La Grave, de la Meije is not a ski resort. Ski resorts adapt to skiers whereas here the skier must adapt to the mountain.
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Pelle (with more hair) says this in P-tex, Lies and Duct Tape. His marketing pitch hasn't changed that much over the years. His product, though, is fantastic.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
The region is currently giving out 50 million in subsidies for snow making and the valley is picking up some of that money - although I don't think la Grave are using any of it. So there is some aid money out there. |
You should see the nice new (substantial) facilities at Chazelet and Villar D'Arene - that makes sense now reading about those subsidies
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The crowdfunding has been a great success. Well above the initial target now which just shows how many people really care about keeping places like La Grave from turning into just another ski resort. Let's hope the decision makers take that into account when they choose the new owners next year.
I also wonder how a new owner who wants to turn it into a more accessible (in terms of the type of skiers who can use it) ski area would cope with controlling the easy access to some potentially very dangerous terrain ? Apart from the Aiguille du Midi in Chamonix I can't think of another place where you can get yourself into trouble so easily without having to hike or climb first. At least the Arrete on the AdM keeps the unprepared away (most of the time anyway) whereas in La Grave access to runs such as Triffide 1 or the Freaux are on the face of it quite straight forward. Would it become a mountain plastered with danger signs and ropes ? Or will they let people crack on with it and after enough people have got themselves into trouble introduce strict rules (maybe only allowing skiers off-piste with a guide or introducing US style backcountry gates) ? I just can't see how such a wild place can be safely turned into a commercial ski area that generates the sort of returns the big companies require.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Some interesting discussion here, lots of rational thought. My hunch is that with a bit of US style marketing, the sort where the 'challenge/extreme/radical' is played up enough to excite Davidof's engineers, with a bit of Gallic romance thrown in, there'll be enough people coming to 'give it a try'. If its 'good' on a good day, then great. _anywhere_ is good on a power day.... and anywhere can be the opposite if there's no snow. I think there'll be enough people who straddle one of davidof's demographics to keep it running for a while... I think there's a 5th category who don't mind paying for a guide, want 'good' skiing, but also a pleasant experience (fast lifts are all very well, but have you _seen _ the queues at Whistler - its Disneyland in the mountains!), an element of risk, the chance of telling a tall tale in the evening, but who might be just as happy watching the sunset over frosted peaks.
Here's hoping for snow in February....
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FAQ
