Warren Smith & Cervinia vs. Snoworks & Tignes for end Nov

A snowHead

Some advice please! From other threads before both Warren Smith & Snoworks courses both seem to be well regarded. I have finally, after much persuading and cajoling, got wife approval to go off end Nov (27th Nov) to take one of the courses, both have one running that week.

So views, opinions, experience please. Does one or other area tend to have more open at that time of year? I know it's all in the lap of the gods so if I assume not great conditions and I'm restricted to the glacier area only is one generally better/bigger than the other? I've not been to either.

Also as a reasonable but not amazing intermediate, not being great on really steep stuff, is one better than t'other in terms of terrain?

Thanks in advance! Very Happy

A snowHead

It's a long time since I was in Cervinia but from what I remember of it and excluding Zermatt, Tignes has more variety of terrain at intermediate level. Cervinia has better views.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

If you would also consider Austria as another option you could try http://www.skivolution.co.uk/courses/
I have no connection other than I have used them several times and been very happy with the quality of instruction.

I also think the kitzsteinhorn has a better variety of tertain than the Tignes glacier if you are restricted to only the glacier at Tignes

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i am on the training week with snow works at the end of nov, snow works guys are good have done a couple of courses with them.... what are you thinking of doing?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I did a Snoworks course in November a few years back. I only went because mates were all refused permission to go away more than once. I had a fun week. Lessons were good enough for me to go back the following year. Your enjoyment could hinge on others in the group - lessons and accomodation.

Can't speak for Warren Smith, for or against.

You'll need to Register first of course.

I'd wait and see where the snow is, also what type of course are you looking for? Lots of companies promise off piste courses all year and then you end up on piste (especially in late Nov!)

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Thanks all, I can't wait unfortunately though @chocksaway as the courses are all almost full. I've decided (fairly arbitrarily) to go for the Warren Smith one, partly as you seem to get more hours teaching but also a big part is just wanting to see the Matterhorn! I'm not after off piste, really keen to just improve my frustrating intermediate level skiing ... hopefully this will help.

I think for balance though I'm going to have to try a Snoworks course for comparison another time. I'll do a report on the course and conditions when I'm back.

After all it is free

@Rowlski, did the Warren Smith course in July, very good it was our second time with them having previously been with them in Verbier, certainly helped our intermediate level skiing, depending on the snow conditions but you may get to ski more than just the glacier, it was a great place to learn and the teaching is excellent so is the accommodation. We plan to do a November one next year.

@radar, good to hear thanks. Yes hoping the conditions will allow more than just the glacier but don't want to get my hopes up. If lime last year it would probably be just the glacier, we'll see! Really keen to move my skiing on and hopeful I can with one of these courses.

Need to make sure I'm in good enough shape before hand to make the most of it! Smile

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@Rowlski, was at the warren smith workshop last night (excellent by the way) and they said the November course in zermatt is their favourite from all their courses. Seemed genuine and not some sales pitch.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

Good to hear @boabski, is the workshop one of the sessions in one of the snow domes? What's the format? Might have to try one if they do that in Mitton Keynes.

@JohnMo, I was not aware of that! That's good news, presumably does add more terrain and fun as you say. Is the Furgg area obvious on the piste map (will take a look in a bit - just on the mobile atm which is useless for maps).

Counting the days already Toofy Grin

You know it makes sense.

@Rowlski, essentially it was a chat and interactive demonstration. Really was very interesting and only cost £8

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Be good to hear how you get on. I have done a week of each and found them very different, but both have their merits. Warren's gang focus on a series of methods / drills and try to bring your skiing to a style / model. SnowWorks seems try to simplify skiing to make it safe an effective regardless of mountain conditions. I definitely got more out of SnowWorks, mostly because it worked better with my learning style, to understand the mechanics, rather than look and copy a drill. ( I did though get a lot out of Warren as well!) Have to say though, I was impressed on my December course with SnowWorks where there were a lot of pensionable aged ladies and gents getting around off piste like it was easy!

A snowHead

I had a couple of one day lessons at Chillfactore 3-4 years ago and on reflection the only thing I think I learned was about a more positive pole plant, not a great experience nor one I'm ever likely to repeat, there's only so many bracage drills you can do. Didn't really enjoy it, bit formulaic for me.

A snowHead

Assume that was WS then. I actually got something from bracage, but agree, the drills the drills

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@PeterGee, Yes WS (or rather his people), found it monotonous.

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I've been on both WS and Snoworks courses. i've had good times and some very very bad times in each. Warren Smith, Phil and Emma Carrick-Smith, all are highly friendly, personable people who know their stuff. But being the person i am, i build up too much expectation and so often i feel it could have gone so much better. In my view a class size of 8 isn't an 'optimum' size at all - but still that's whats on offer.
I was particularly disappointed once, when having trouble in moguls, the very best an ISTD instructor could come up with was, ' traverse over those moguls and absorb them, feel like your trying to bring your knees to your chin' - now i realise that puts me in the early novice moguls phase in most snowheads eyes and it's an essentual exercise etc. Going up on the lift the ISTD ( teacher - highest level) mentioned this was an instruction and not a coaching course and did i understand the difference. So from that, i understood this - here's a particular situation, this demo is what we show by way of verbal and visual instruction, we may show you some standard drills to help you 'get a muscle feeling' to assist in this particular situation as a group but any particular individual needs can't be addressed in deep detail as they're another 7 of you... which from the perspective of the other 7 is fair enough.

Managing customer expectations must be a nightmare for them. We all rock up on Saturday, biting at the bit to get going, dreaming about all this for months and months etc.

I was with Snoworks last year late Nov - the mountain was closed half the week and mobbed out with racers to - lift lines were horrendous. Worst week away ever - might as well just torn up £1000.

A few years previously the WS course was in Saas-Fee, summer glacier skiing - again personally i'd pay a little more and do a mid winter course not a summer glacier again.

So my advice is to be specific about what you want to learn. Go when the snow is most likely to be at its best for what you want to do etc. This will give you the best chance of success. Try to remember your 1 of 8 and probably not particularly special to them - they will try to help if 'they can' - you are 1 of 8. There's alot going on in their heads - above all else is everyone's and their safety on the mountain. It's a very responsibly job or should be and they do their best to make it enjoyable for all. Note to myself - smile more...

Personally i like drills. I need to understand the importance and and why i'm doing the drill though for my commitment. Always make sure you understand why you're doing the drill. In a class of 8, some will easily do the drill and others will bio-mechanically struggle with the drill. If you're selected by skiing ability when you arrive and put in classes suitable - be aware that some of you will accomplish / pick-up the drill quickly and others just won't be able to flex or will fear the position / speed etc. thus not achieving the drill outcome. Then you'll be moving on to other things etc - it can all get distressing to some individuals etc.

Having said all that, i like meeting new people, i like doing drills (because they're vital learning methods), i like meeting like minded ski heads and i love learning new skills.

I've taken a few ad-hoc privates at 2 hrs etc and apart from having a great ski, i haven't had anything of importance that ever changed my skiing ( ok, just a tiny bit!) and within a little while, afraid to say some of it just got a little muddled in my mind. rolling eyes

going private - again have a particular mission, choose best time for best particular snow ( powder / moguls / ) you can within reason, don't think an hour or two should fix it with quick tips etc. it takes a fews hours of particular drills to add-in any new skill /feeling/sensation to your skiing - allow for significant practice time after learning time - you can't learn too much all at once!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Also done courses with both outfits and had the top instructors. Snoworks was less on the technical stance precision and more about adaptability dealing with the terrain. Warren Smith concentrated more on body and limb position. Both good for different reasons and I find I go back to the points from the instruction often.

So, I wouldn't expect to show a vast amount of improvement after only a week, unless an aspect was seriously bad beforehand. Putting the tips into practice weeks after the course will produce improvement.

Have a skiing notebook and each day record what was taught. Then weeks or years later you'll again try a teaching point and realise it works.

The key point from both courses is to be able to self analyse your skiing. Then after pitch you can work out what worked and what didn't and how to correct.

Phil Smith analysed video of many students and the crashes he caught on film to work out why. Virtually every crash was from loosing concentration - eg looking at another skier. So the ability to concentrate well for the whole pitch and run is mighty important.

Which ever you do, both are good. Enjoy.

Help!!

Warren Smith & Cervinia vs. Snoworks & Tignes for end Nov

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