 Poster: A snowHead
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Anyone doing this yet? Just went to get my pass for Val T and I've tried to purchase it through the app - I had hoped you could download a pass to your phone, then use it as you would 'apple pay' and whatever the android version of that is?
All the tech is in place already I think?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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But would it work if the phone battery dies?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think the tech is not in place. Skidata use I suspect more of an ID platform, rather than a payment system.
And what happens when you are stuck up the mountain, in a storm, near closing time and your battery dies?
I think a passive card a better idea, myself...
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Bad idea I think. Apart from the battery issues the contactless tech used in smartphones is NFC which has a very short range (<20cm). The skidata system seems to have much greater range than that.
Theres also the issue of how long it takes to 'read' the chip - which can significantly affect the throughput of the gate. I believe that was one reason TfL didn't introduce contactless (credit rather than Oyster) cards sooner.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bad idea in my opinion too. Significant disadvantages, see above, with very little real benefit. (Like Apple Pay!)
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 13-10-16 19:31; edited 1 time in total
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In Jan, my phone couldn't cope with the very cold temperatures and died (needing PUK Code) every time I tried to use it.....I'm glad it wasn't my Lift Pass.
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@never summer, I doubt the physical tech is installed in place is it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Apart from the battery issues:
All ski stations as far as I am aware scan the cards on the LHS which is why most ski jackets come with a pocket on the left sleeve/shoulder or inside on the left chest.
Most people are right handed and place their phones in the right pocket.
Watching people I've observed so far pay with a smartphone take too long for the payment to work. Their is a great study based on the Tokyo metro about the importance of speedy authentification for payments.
Can you only imagine all the extra faff of people in the lift queues, a what 5-10 gram plastic card works just fine.
I'm pretty certain in some French and Austrian resorts you can top up previous cards online.
Keep it simple.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I use phone passes all the time. Easyjet today tracking incoming flight in the lounge so I knew my flight was on time, the train line for live train prates, BA for my flight on monday. Rome2Rio for general travel (especially train platforms in China), so I'm really into mt job specific apps. However, for a ski pass to enter a lift I think it is a bad idea.
Most people have security on their phone. So imaging everyone at a lift taking off their gloves to launch the app to scan the QR code. Nightmare, and as for people that say oh it would be bluetooth or wifi. Well yesterday on the way from the east of Paris to the west I used up 75% of my battery on satnav So had to go into low mode to get back.
On the slopes with wifi, data searching, bluetooth etc a phone would be useless for a full day skiing.
A simply card in the left hand pocket is a system that just works.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@GlasgowCyclops, the passes you are using aren't RFIDs are they?
Scanning barcodes for liftpasses takes us back to the 80s
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I was behind a woman checking onto an easyJet flight to Geneva in June. With my printed-at-home boarding pass in the back pocket of my jeans. She had a damn great cabin bag and a handbag (already breaking the rules there). Her boarding pass was on her ipad, which was in the handbag. It was such a huge bloody faff every time she had to get it out, open it up, try to present the picture of the pass to the reader, etc etc. If a high proportion of the boarding passengers had had their boarding passes on tablets it would have taken forever to board. And that's if they were all charged.
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@GlasgowCyclops, the passes you are using aren't RFIDs are they?
Scanning barcodes for liftpasses takes us back to the 80s |
No Not RFID. Skidata is just fine. I was referring to a scanned passcode (EG QR). However if using Bluetooth or wifi or some other comms,,the battery will die (apple) or set you on fire (samsung). 
I've nothing against apps.
Man, I was a PALM and Windows CE developer years ago (Using RAD's to be fair)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, not installed but it exists.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
All the tech is in place already I think?
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When you can do contactless payment using your smart phone, that's when the
'tech' is "in place"!
We're not there yet. But we will be sooner than you think.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@abc, Apple Pay = contactless (uses same standards & protocols as contactless cards I think).
@never summer, the tech exists to just laser scan your face instead, but I don't see that being installed anytime soon.
Just because you can, etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They have this in Espace Killy this season. It's a really bad idea.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@bar shaker, do they? it's not featured on the Vd'I or Tignes websites?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Think it is technically possible, and the phone just emulates whatever card. The skipass RFID cards are all a basic standard NFC card (forget which, but you can get an Android app that'll read them and tell you, and it'll also tell you a bit about your passport, and your contactless bank card, and..).
But the phone needs to be pretty close to NFC reader, the right way around too. I'll stick to a ski pass in the dedicated ski pass pocket on my left sleeve tyvm, and keep my battery charge for an emergency phone call or SMS.
And @pam w, the 2D barcode readers at the airport are designed for regular/business travellers using mobile phones not iPads. And the business travellers will all have the code ready to scan, just like the rest of us with our paper one. Bad enough needing competent and incompetent/PITA travellers queues in security.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
needing competent and incompetent/PITA travellers queues in security
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Yep.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @bar shaker, do they? it's not featured on the Vd'I or Tignes websites? |
I am sure I saw a picture of a phone with a Qcode on the Val site, but you are right.
Apologies for confusing anyone.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I was behind a woman checking onto an easyJet flight to Geneva in June. With my printed-at-home boarding pass in the back pocket of my jeans. She had a damn great cabin bag and a handbag (already breaking the rules there). Her boarding pass was on her ipad, which was in the handbag. It was such a huge bloody faff every time she had to get it out, open it up, try to present the picture of the pass to the reader, etc etc. If a high proportion of the boarding passengers had had their boarding passes on tablets it would have taken forever to board. And that's if they were all charged. |
Would she have been any faster if she'd had the boarding pass on a piece of paper? In my experience having the pass on your phone as a QR code works just as well as having a piece of paper, as long as the phone has power of course. What is being talked about here is slightly different though, so the phone actually communicates with the gate via NFC ( Near Field Communication ). Again I guess this is OK as long as the phone has power ( and works in a blizzard at -25C ). But it has to be seamless and not require any interaction with the user. I.e sits in your pocket just like a lift pass and you walk through at the same speed as you would with a normal card. Not sure they are really there yet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@never summer, the tech exists to just laser scan your face instead, but I don't see that being installed anytime soon.
Just because you can, etc. |
Not when wearing a helmet, goggles and a gimp mask 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Soooo.....
I'm getting mixed messages here; is that a 'no'?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| LukeRibs wrote: |
Soooo.....
I'm getting mixed messages here; is that a 'no'?
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There are some things you shouldn't do even if you technically can do them....
(what's so wrong with the little rectangle of plastic we all now carry in the purpose designed mini pocket on the right sleeve?)
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that would be a reasonable assumption
my lift pass appears on the breakfast table. it goes in my pocket. I don't want to get arrested for looking like I'm trying to get frisky with a lift pass reader.
now a lift pass on a smartwatch *could* make sense.
either way I'll be wanting to carry the receipt in the wallet in case something stops working.
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You know it makes sense.
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@LukeRibs, a. the tech is not in place b. it is a bad idea.
Take that however you will.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
@abc, Apple Pay = contactless (uses same standards & protocols as contactless cards I think).
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But clearly it was not the "same". Or you could have put the phone in the same spot of the ski pass (I put mine in a regular pocket)
I really don't understand all the negative against ski pass on the phone. You don't HAVE TO use it. But when 'the tech is there', it'd be silly not to get on with it!
I predict there will be soon enough for wide spread use of train tickets on smartphones, boarding pass on smartphone etc. Ski pass on smartphone will just be another one and no one would even remember they once thought it's such a bad idea.
(I was wrong to assume "contactless" means you don't have to put the phone inches from the reader, more practical if it works for up to a foot away)
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now a lift pass on a smartwatch *could* make sense.
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Yep, make good sense. Except no that many people have smartwatch.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@abc, I think you misunderstand. Apple Pay uses the same contactless payment protocol as is built into credit cards these days.
Although, that said, you are in the US where Chip'n'Pin which Europe has had for many years has just been implemented appallingly badly. So maybe you don't have contactless credit/debit cards yet!
And I think you are confusing use-cases. I usually have my train, plane tickets and boarding passes on my phone. What the QR code is doing is saying (optically) "I am Me". And in an environment where QR reading is sensible. Payment systems are saying (by radio) "I am Me and here is my wallet, please take out the approved amount". That's different.
A ski pass is saying, by radio, "I am a valid ski pass and the person carrying it purports to have bought it" and doesn't want to take their gloves off to get their phone out, turn it on, swipe a possibly wet and snowy reader and reverse the process.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@under a new name, My reading of things is that the tech is in place. The NFC protocol is the same as the RFID standards, the phone could be programmed to broadcast that it is a Skidata card if there was an app written to do this.
The payment aspect is separate as you would still need to update the central server to indicate that a particular card was valid.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
And I think you are confusing use-cases. I usually have my train, plane tickets and boarding passes on my phone. What the QR code is doing ...
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@under a new name, I think your confusion is on the "QR code" part. That's NOT what I'm thinking when I said "contact-less"! (even though scanning QR code is indeed done without physical contact)
All the argument against ski pass on smartphone is it being a hassle to take the phone out of the pocket, which you would need to do if you need to scan for QR code.
By "contact less", I mean the kind of contact-less exactly like the RF ski pass!
All phones are perfectly capable of doing that. After all, it can talk to a cell tower miles away, surely it can talk to a station a foot away. What's needed is someone program the RF reader piece to talk the same language with the phone. The rest are just details. (It may be a BT like transmitter instead of a RF transmitter. But it can be done quite easily). The "tech" are kind of sort of there already. Just need to be packaged up and migrated to the ski mountains.
The key is the ski pass MUST work by staying in the wallet. Once we got over that hurdle, I can't see why it's not a good idea.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 14-10-16 21:26; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well - I rather think that issues over battery life and cold weather operation will be over come quite quickly with the advancement of technology. I'd like to see the option for a ski pass app, and those of us determined to stick to cards to have the option to do so.
I avidly make use of apple pay and contact-less payment both as a consumer, and across all three of the businesses we own - and despite being sceptical at the start, I'm now such a convert I'd like to see the technology applied here. It seems from the posts above that the technology does exist. I look forward to using it!
The watch idea is quite an old one isn't it?
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=105191
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@abc, I think you and I are on the same page here... It really doesn't seem that complex of an idea to me? But maybe I'm missing something?
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| LukeRibs wrote: |
| Well - I rather think that issues over battery life and cold weather operation will be over come quite quickly.... |
I suppose spontaneously combusting might help with overcoming the cold.
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So, is the phone supposed to emit the signal near lift stations? And get activated by mental powers? Or will the phone emit the signal constantly? It will kill the battery. Just as useless as downloading a barcode to be scanned. Definitely would cost a fortune to implement for no apparent benefit over the current system.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It would be active but idle using practically no power unless it appeared within a few cm of a card reader device. Then it wakes up.
Just like any other time people leave the NFC "activated" for use as payment device, or emulated oyster card, etc.
Barcode would be totally useless in this case. More useless than the old ticket on a string that you insert in the machine.
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@never summer, your phone activates itself once a second (maybe more maybe less ) to look for incoming calls anyway. It could as easily look for a lift station on NFC or Bluetooth at the same time. It's only receiving when it does that so the energy consumed is tolerable.
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FAQ
