 Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... Plus I don't really believe the slalom ski everywhere posse really have skied in Sierra Cement, Cascade Concrete, any sort of snow that is setting up or spring snow that is past the turn. |
Indeed.
I've ridden bottomless powder with a lot of good people, and none of them chose to waste a day fighting their equipment. You can peel an apple with a carving knife if you really want to, but it's not very rational. Boasting about it is probably counter productive.
CMH clients are riding stuff like this:
http://www.canadianmountainholidays.com/about-us/our-equipment.aspx
I agree with that - in light powder you don't actually NEED that much float
It depends how much light powder you're talking about, and how steep you're riding, for snowboards at least. For 75cm or so new light powder, you need all the float you can get. Unless you want to ride where it doesn't stick. If you mean "if you're riding a skier-pisted base under a few cm of fluff then ordinary gear is fine", I'd agree with that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| arcsinice wrote: |
Question............. Honestly.........., what is with this insane fixation of ridiculous uber wide skis that make float plane floats nearly pale by comparison? Seriously. What's next, a return of the scuba snorkel (and mask) for "deep powder", knee high boots, the Burt binding.............?
I bounce around on two pairs of skis in a given year, the primary have a 72 waist, the secondary a whopping 80. There isn't ANY situation that I cannot blast through on the former with the latter almost a novelty. Word is a Barcalounger (replete with cup holder and all manner of media outlet) fitted with 150mm waist skis is being tested........... I wonder if it comes in neon yellow? |
Ummm, no, there ARE situations where you will not be able to bounce around and blast through snow. I can name several, where an 80mm ski will get you nowhere fast and leave your legs feeling like you just did super sets of leg squats, after having run 10x400 meter wind sprints. Maybe you don't encounter these types of snow conditions. You know, like 3 feet of heavy wet concrete "Cascade" that we get here in the PNW. I've seen my share of 100mm skis get bogged down in that stuff. Heck, I've skied that stuff with 108mm non-rockered tips, and it is a workout! It's like skiing quick sand. Or, even better; breakable crust that drops you into, several cm's of heavy wet mank. In fact I was up in Alaska this year, and demo'd a pair of 120mm waisted and rockered skis for 2 feet of heavy wet "powder". It made things somewhat enjoyable. Others on skinnier skis than I were having a heck of a time in that stuff. Last thing on my mind was what 80mm or even 90mm ski should I get for those conditions.
Try skiing on those 80mm boards when you hit yesterdays refrozen crud. Again, it can be done, but it's not fun, and it works your legs over for even the fittest of skiers. But, you can of course avoid that type of snow, and ski groomers.
I like 98mm waist, it's a very versatile width. But anyone who has the chance to demo or rent should try different skis. You can learn a lot about ski mfg, ski design, and what you like in a ski. There are some really, really good skis out there now a days. You just need to find the one that works best for you, and the conditions you like to ski most.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
It depends how much light powder you're talking about, and how steep you're riding, for snowboards at least. For 75cm or so new light powder, you need all the float you can get. Unless you want to ride where it doesn't stick. If you mean "if you're riding a skier-pisted base under a few cm of fluff then ordinary gear is fine", I'd agree with that.
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So cards on the table - I've almost never had 75cm of new light powder to ski. But I've skied 50cm without a skier-pisted base on 2m long / 60mm waist slalom skis so I'm not talking about a few cm of fluff. I'm far from brilliant and was worse then. If it's light and fluffy then knee depth is not remotely difficult if you have any kind of technique. 30cm of porridge is far harder.
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But if I was trying to do 10000m of vertical on a heliski day I'd be on fat skis for sure. Like I say I ski most of the time on my R108s I just don't think I NEED to on most powder days (most of my off piste skiing has been on 75mm or smaller) and I definitely don't think the R108s perform like GS skis on piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="jedster"]
| Quote: |
So cards on the table - I've almost never had 75cm of new light powder to ski. But I've skied 50cm without a skier-pisted base on 2m long / 60mm waist slalom skis so I'm not talking about a few cm of fluff. I'm far from brilliant and was worse then. If it's light and fluffy then knee depth is not remotely difficult if you have any kind of technique. 30cm of porridge is far harder. |
Me too, though it was on 201 Solly Force 9 3s.
IMO. If getting one set, skis should be bought on the basis of where you will realistically be skiing, not where you'd like to be skiing, or for a condition that you might get once in 10 years. At times, that's easier said than done...there's nothing wrong with a bit of aspiration. 
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Yup, I did 6 years on a pair of 98mm skis, used them for everything 
But now having the choice of SL, GS, the old 98 Nordicas and a pair of 120mm Bents I seem to spend most time alternating between the SLs and the big fat ones.
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| Quote: |
You're forgetting that 20-30cm (a common occurrence, even in the Alps ) on narrow skis involves skiing the old manky base.
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In my experience 30cm feels lovely even on skinny skis, you barely notice the bottom. But actually I don't disagree with the thrust of what you say which is why I stressed NEED rather than WANT.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jedster, sorry quotes seem to have messed up there, that should have been attributed to @Old Fartbag!
Depends what the bottom is really - if it's smooth then 30cms is enough, if it's a high traffic face with big moguls less so!
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| clarky999 wrote: |
You're forgetting that 20-30cm (a common occurrence, even in the Alps  ) on narrow skis involves skiing the old manky base. 20-30cms on wide skis feels like a legit powder day without touching bottom. 50+cms you'll have fun regardless as long as you can ski (but more on skis that float). |
How wide are we talking to get this effect? My experience of wide skis is admittedly limited and I tend to use around 72mm for most recreational skiing. No doubt I'd struggle on these if I tried following someone like yourself!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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philwig
| Quote: |
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
... Plus I don't really believe the slalom ski everywhere posse really have skied in Sierra Cement, Cascade Concrete, any sort of snow that is setting up or spring snow that is past the turn.
Indeed.
I've ridden bottomless powder with a lot of good people, and none of them chose to waste a day fighting their equipment. You can peel an apple with a carving knife if you really want to, but it's not very rational. Boasting about it is probably counter productive.
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No question. I have done a half day heliskiing on GS skis, no particular problem, just rather more tiring. I was on the lodge powder skis the next morning.
But the other side of the argument is the trend that some folks seem to believe that wearing fat skis will mean it snows more powder, or something. Or that they will miraculously become better skiers, or something. It's the "I ski one-week-a-year and I don't ski much off piste, should I have 112mm skis" that I find incomprehensible...
It's not the folks asking the questions - it's the industry marketing folks engendering that sort of legend that annoys.
But hey ho, if we were all perfect and all that 
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 12-10-16 11:59; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It would be nonsensical to waste time skiing on a narrower waisted, more traditional profile pair of skis if:
1. One no longer takes lessons
2. One spends limited amounts of time per winter skiing
On a 1-week ski holiday even if one skis the biggest mountains with the biggest verticals and the fastest lift systems the actual time on snow still won't pass 40 hours [6hrs per day for 6 days]. That's not a lot of time on snow.
3. One has saved up hard earned cash
If any or all of the above apply, then choose the most suitable pair of skis for the conditions one is likely to encounter and the terrain one intends to ski.
Whether it's a 75mm piste oriented ski or a 120mm waisted reverse camber powder ski, choose the ski that's fit for purpose. That's the one that will give the most fun.
If one has the luxury of time on snow and takes lessons to improve one's skills then a ski with a waist width in the 90mm neighbourhood should cover all bases.
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| Quote: |
choose the ski that's (most) fit for purpose. That's the one that will give the most fun
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I would only add that there isn't a linear relationship between ski waist and fun - i.e. a long 120mm reverse camber snowboard is more compromised most of the time for most people than a more traditional 80-85mm piste ski.
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You know it makes sense.
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| balernoStu wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| You're forgetting that 20-30cm (a common occurrence, even in the Alps ) on narrow skis involves skiing the old manky base. 20-30cms on wide skis feels like a legit powder day without touching bottom. 50+cms you'll have fun regardless as long as you can ski (but more on skis that float). |
How wide are we talking to get this effect? My experience of wide skis is admittedly limited and I tend to use around 72mm for most recreational skiing. No doubt I'd struggle on these if I tried following someone like yourself! |
Around 120mm. My biggest skis are 135mm and they're so damn fun - 20cms is really enough to feel like a proper powder day. However the huge tips are a pain if/when it gets tracked (in heavy snow anyway) as they slam into piles of snow rather than punching through, so you get bucked around a lot (how much of an issue this is depends on where you ski and how many 'free riders'/powder stress there is). Unless you're lucky enough to pick and choose (or go to small quiet 'secret' resorts on the good days) around 120mm is the magic number I feel.
EDIT: Depends a lot on the snow too though. Light snow you either need more snow or more width to not touch base and can blast through tracks regardless. If the snow's heavier you need less of it to get the floaty feel, but it becomes more work when it's tracked.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| balernoStu wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| You're forgetting that 20-30cm (a common occurrence, even in the Alps ) on narrow skis involves skiing the old manky base. 20-30cms on wide skis feels like a legit powder day without touching bottom. 50+cms you'll have fun regardless as long as you can ski (but more on skis that float). |
How wide are we talking to get this effect? My experience of wide skis is admittedly limited and I tend to use around 72mm for most recreational skiing. No doubt I'd struggle on these if I tried following someone like yourself! |
Around 120mm. My biggest skis are 135mm and they're so damn fun - 20cms is really enough to feel like a proper powder day. However the huge tips are a pain if/when it gets tracked (in heavy snow anyway) as they slam into piles of snow rather than punching through, so you get bucked around a lot. Unless you're lucky enough to pick and choose (or go to small quiet 'secret' resorts on the good days) around 120mm is the magic number I feel. |
Echoes my experience.
My fatties are 141, and in anything fresh they are absolutely ridiculous fun. In anything tracked or cutup, they're borderline unskiable. They will not go through anything. They only go over.
So they don't get skied much on an average 1 week Alps holiday (if they are even in the bag). My 105mm slightly rockered skis are decent enough to be fun on piste, and have enough float to be fun off piste. But when I get to the point where I chuck them away I'll probably replace with a circa 85mm "all mountain" pair and a pow pair around 115-120. That would be a better selection of skis to put in my double bag for an average alpine holiday I think.
I'll probably hang on to the 141 monsters for any Japan or Heli trips though...
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've been with a couple of people (instructors and racers) who can ski beautifully on SL or GS skis in variable deep snow forest conditions. It's very humbling to watch 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I used to ski piste oriented skis all the time off piste (about 75 waist) and I really enjoy doing short turns with them in deep powder, getting face shots all the time. I could not ski very fast on them in powder though as they felt unstable. I now have some wider skis (about 112) that I usually use in powder, they allow me to ski faster and do longer turns with more confidence. Not so many face shots though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@clarky999, @flaming, thanks, useful to hear from experience. The 95mm pair I own don't seem to be leagues better than piste skis in fresh snow, while being less fun on piste. They perhaps aren't a great example mind, being somewhat of the 'wide GS ski' format, and I haven't chosen to use them often.
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| musehead wrote: |
| I used to ski piste oriented skis all the time off piste (about 75 waist) and I really enjoy doing short turns with them in deep powder, getting face shots all the time. I could not ski very fast on them in powder though as they felt unstable. I now have some wider skis (about 112) that I usually use in powder, they allow me to ski faster and do longer turns with more confidence. Not so many face shots though. |
Therein lies the rub
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| musehead wrote: |
| I used to ski piste oriented skis all the time off piste (about 75 waist) and I really enjoy doing short turns with them in deep powder, getting face shots all the time. I could not ski very fast on them in powder though as they felt unstable. I now have some wider skis (about 112) that I usually use in powder, they allow me to ski faster and do longer turns with more confidence. Not so many face shots though. |
Therein lies the rub |
Depends how you ski though. Go faster and drift/smear your turns and you still get plenty
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| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Obviously it's all relative but I have skied Gs skis in their proper environment (glacial ice) and think the analog is fine re the Shiros, long radius relatively fast turns with plenty of edge angle on a soft piste
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The soft piste is a pretty important caveat!
But it's also the ability to link short carved turns. If the piste is reasonably soft I can rail big medium / big turns on my R108. The straight, flat tails mean they are easy to pivot around in shorter-turns. But short-carved cross-under turns? They just can't do that like a GS ski. At least not with me as the pilot! |
Not many skis can unless you are on a GS stick, I used have GS skis are the dailys and LP 105's for everything else. After finding that set up a bit too extreme at each end I opted for a new set of MX88's and R108's.
The MX88 is one of the few not a GS ski that actually behaves like a GS ski as for all intensive purposes it really does behave like one, sans race plate. The part I found interesting is they behave better with a plate on them (I got them ex demo) and took the demo bindings off and they actually ski better with the added stack height of the demo plate. I'm tempted to re mount them with one my spare race plates.
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@musehead, thank you for the light bulb moment. I enjoy lots of short turns too and tried some 117 Automatics last season and it felt like I was trying to hold them back all the time. I think I also prefer a ski with all camber. The one ski quiver I'm looking for is probably 85-95 underfoot, all camber with a lively wood core. An older Movement Jam really hit the spot for me. Any other suggestions?
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old volkl mantras were the textbook answer
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jedster wrote: |
| old volkl mantras were the textbook answer |
The designer of these went to Blizzard and deigned the (continued to be cambered) Bonafide/Brahama(Black Pearl)/Latigo set of all mountain skis that are remarkably like the Mantra/ Kendo ....
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@mishmash, to my mind the Bonafides are like the Mantra but less lively. Which is not such a good thing. Still my current default purchase for the season...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @mishmash, to my mind the Bonafides are like the Mantra but less lively. Which is not such a good thing. Still my current default purchase for the season... |
Amazingly, I have never skied the Mantras. I did prefer the Latigo that I demo'd to the Bonafide that I own so I see what you mean (after I had bought the Bone's obv!!). The Bonafides do "pop' off the camber but you can't be cruising, you need to be a high energy skier. So not obviously for lazy on piste days... the Zero G 95 on the other hand - wow, now that is lively!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@samtm96, The Whitedot Preacher can be a good single ski solution; 112 under foot, short radius and positive camber. skis well in deep soft snow and carves very well on piste (but hard work on ice) Some people love them, others don't like them
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
It would be nonsensical to waste time skiing on a narrower waisted, more traditional profile pair of skis if:
1. One no longer takes lessons
2. One spends limited amounts of time per winter skiing
On a 1-week ski holiday even if one skis the biggest mountains with the biggest verticals and the fastest lift systems the actual time on snow still won't pass 40 hours [6hrs per day for 6 days]. That's not a lot of time on snow.
3. One has saved up hard earned cash
If any or all of the above apply, then choose the most suitable pair of skis for the conditions one is likely to encounter and the terrain one intends to ski.
Whether it's a 75mm piste oriented ski or a 120mm waisted reverse camber powder ski, choose the ski that's fit for purpose. That's the one that will give the most fun.
If one has the luxury of time on snow and takes lessons to improve one's skills then a ski with a waist width in the 90mm neighbourhood should cover all bases. |
I would only quibble this in 2 regards
1) We all have limited days on snow. Even those of us who move heaven and earth to hit 50+ would rather have more.
2) A quiver is most useful the longer your trip. Over 2 weeks you have more chance of hitting significantly different conditions than over a long weekend.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
If one has the luxury of time on snow and takes lessons to improve one's skills then a ski with a waist width in the 90mm neighbourhood should cover all bases.
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It is a good compromise but I'm not sure I would have ever learned to link short carved cross under turns on firm pistes on 90mm waist skis. On pistes with a bit of give I can now do them on blue type steepness on my line prophet 100 - pretty traditional sidecut and camber, fairly stiff but 100mm waist but I don't think I could have developed the skills on them as you have to be pretty damn committed to get them all the way from one high edge to the other
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
| musehead wrote: |
| I used to ski piste oriented skis all the time off piste (about 75 waist) and I really enjoy doing short turns with them in deep powder, getting face shots all the time. I could not ski very fast on them in powder though as they felt unstable. I now have some wider skis (about 112) that I usually use in powder, they allow me to ski faster and do longer turns with more confidence. Not so many face shots though. |
Therein lies the rub |
Depends how you ski though. Go faster and drift/smear your turns and you still get plenty |
True, but that takes skill, fitness & balls which is beyond most.
Add the increased acceleration and speed wider platforms offer in unconsolidated snow which puts many in the backseat to begin with and the face shot quotient plummets.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
It would be nonsensical to waste time skiing on a narrower waisted, more traditional profile pair of skis if:
1. One no longer takes lessons
2. One spends limited amounts of time per winter skiing
On a 1-week ski holiday even if one skis the biggest mountains with the biggest verticals and the fastest lift systems the actual time on snow still won't pass 40 hours [6hrs per day for 6 days]. That's not a lot of time on snow.
3. One has saved up hard earned cash
If any or all of the above apply, then choose the most suitable pair of skis for the conditions one is likely to encounter and the terrain one intends to ski.
Whether it's a 75mm piste oriented ski or a 120mm waisted reverse camber powder ski, choose the ski that's fit for purpose. That's the one that will give the most fun.
If one has the luxury of time on snow and takes lessons to improve one's skills then a ski with a waist width in the 90mm neighbourhood should cover all bases. |
I would only quibble this in 2 regards
1) We all have limited days on snow. Even those of us who move heaven and earth to hit 50+ would rather have more.
2) A quiver is most useful the longer your trip. Over 2 weeks you have more chance of hitting significantly different conditions than over a long weekend. |
1) Agreed. Was thinking of the 1 week a year crowd.
2) That's another can of worms, frequency (trips) v duration (days in a block) 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
If one has the luxury of time on snow and takes lessons to improve one's skills then a ski with a waist width in the 90mm neighbourhood should cover all bases.
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It is a good compromise but I'm not sure I would have ever learned to link short carved cross under turns on firm pistes on 90mm waist skis. On pistes with a bit of give I can now do them on blue type steepness on my line prophet 100 - pretty traditional sidecut and camber, fairly stiff but 100mm waist but I don't think I could have developed the skills on them as you have to be pretty damn committed to get them all the way from one high edge to the other |
Certainly takes time and effort.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Lots of very good information in the latest issue of Fall Line magazine - annual ski & boot issue - to which our very own clarky999 has contributed.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hi all i want to buy amplid virtue 103 for my wife (advanced on-piste skier) who wants to improve her off piste skills & finally grew to do it. Still wants to ski on piste on them though 50/50. However, perhaps something in range of 90-98 width is better?( bought when she was a teen) any thoughts from more experienced snowheads? she has old atomic beta carve now (ultra flexible!!!) which resort pro tuner in a shop said 3 years ago, that they would still be ok for 3-4 seasons.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
.. No question. I have done a half day heliskiing on GS skis, no particular problem, just rather more tiring. I was on the lodge powder skis the next morning.
But the other side of the argument is the trend that some folks seem to believe that wearing fat skis will mean it snows more powder, or something. ... |
I too did half a day, on an SL snowboard in my case. It's the hardest thing I've ever done on snow. The issue for snowboards is side-to-side balance, not float. I would not get in a machine with anyone on that type of gear unless they were paying.
I'd never want to ride a powder board on piste though. Powder boards are wide, hard to get on edge on piste. In powder edges aren't hugely important, and even no-boards work. On piste, it's all about edge. You need two sets of gear.
Face shots? Get some tele skis. Or a snowboard 
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| philwig wrote: |
I'd never want to ride a powder board on piste though. Powder boards are wide, hard to get on edge on piste. In powder edges aren't hugely important, and even no-boards work. On piste, it's all about edge. You need two sets of gear.
Face shots? Get some tele skis. Or a snowboard |
I think you may have a rather privileged view of powder. In Europe on average you are going to need edges at some point for the sketchy traverse in or the refrozen shitty forest track out of even the best powder runs most of the time.
No doubt on the snowboard face shot - tail heavy turn= faceshot, tail heavy turn - faceshot....
You can get the same effect with decently fat skis of course as clarky identifies
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This thread has me thinking about changing tack - I've a pair of 90mm nordica hell n back that i use for everything, on piste, off piste daily driver and i rather love them. I do like the idea of specializing though and have a pair of 65mm slalom ski's i can get my grubby mits on gratis, along with maybe then investing in something properly wide for the powder days....dont see any downside, really, number of skis should always = N+1, right? even though in this case I'll be making it N+2....when i bought the nordica's it was with the intention of doing lots of off piste, which has happened, but since i dont tour, there ends up being a lot of piste based activities and they are great for carving with as well. Oh well...time to expand the ski rack..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I had a pair Black Crows Ova. They are about 85 underfoot but were excellent in any condition. I would 100% recommend them for a season. unfortunately they got nicked so ive bought the new black crows captis. slightly wider underfoot at 90 and with twin tips could also help the park situation.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
The Whitedot R108 is like a piste rocket even if lazy hacks like me don't like trad tails in breakable crust. |
I have a set of the older WD Rangers (supplied by Jon). Great skis, cope with everything including an icy Face de Belvard. Granted, you won't be doing any GS carves, but, they are a genuine single quiver solution.
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FAQ
