Poster: A snowHead
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I'd echo most of what Hurtle, has said, except that in my case Inside Out were initially presented with a keen to improve, but not very confident, late starter to skiing. Through their approach to teaching, I've also become a reasonably competent skier and feel very fortunate to be able to enjoy my skiing so much. A couple of years ago, with a body that wasn't getting any younger, I thought I'd probably reached the limit of my capabilities but kept signing up for I.O. ski courses just to maintain my level of technique. However, I've realised that, somehow, they still keep guiding me towards small improvements in technique and therefore even more fun from my skiing!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Voting has now closed, thanks for all who voted for us , fingers crossed for a podium
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret wrote: |
As we are seeking peoples votes for SnowSports School of the year I will reply in detail to allay any concerns that members of SH's may have of my business through continual allegations by Mr. Goldsmith. Some who will know has been banned from the Ski Club of GB forum and has been severely limited and moderated on what he can post here. This is Rob and I's business and livelihood.
To try to clear up any confusion caused regarding the photo that was posted on Facebook and Snowheads page by David Goldsmith
When working in the Trentino region of Italy we apply for a license to teach under the European temporary provision of services directive EC2013/55 which covers us for the week(s) that we are working there. Once we submit our paperwork (Instructor licenses, criminal records checks and liability insurance) to the regional authority in Trentino they send us a temporary licence, which specifies the date and location we will be teaching.
I am an L3 and Rob is an L2 and we have been granted temporary licenses to practice there. There are a lots of visiting instructors who work in the area, from mainly Poland, Slovenia, Denmark and the Netherlands, all bringing their own clients. The system they have put in place to monitor visiting instructors from outside of Italy is that foreign instructors need to carry our temporary license paperwork on us when on the hill AND wear an arm badge patch showing country of group origin so that the local Police are able to easily see who is legitimate, with papers in order, without having to "control" you on the hill in front of clients. A neat solution all round.
The patches were provided via the local ski school, who gave them to us after we showed them our Italian temp licenses. The patches have either a Maestro logo (for Italians from other Italian regions) or ISIA logo with their respective national flag for foreigners.
The patch contains the Logo of the International Ski Instructors Association (ISIA). Mr. Goldsmith may be confused as many years ago the ISIA “stamp” was only granted for the highest level of instructor in a national association and the corresponding logo was a stamp of quality assurance. The ISIA has created a “pyramid” of recognised qualifications a few years ago. At the top is the ISIA “Card”, then ISIA “Stamp” and an “Association” stamp for lower level instructors. National Associations, like BASI in the UK have their qualification levels checked against the ISIA’s minimum standards and are then aligned with other nations. The ISIA Card and Stamp are not licenses per se but rather a global quality assurance standard to compare qualifications from different countries. Here is an example for BASI qualifications http://www.isiaski.org/download/20111010_Budapest_MS_assessment_en.pdf The use of the ISIA logo does not imply any “level” of qualification in a similar way that use of the generic BASI logo doesn’t imply a specific level.
That’s why Rob was wearing an ISIA logo, he wasn't trying to pass himself off as L3 and he only wears it when he is in this resort and not at Hemel or elsewhere. His bio on our website clearly says he is L2.
I could care less who makes these patches and who controls the issue of them.
Ps I am Irish and wasn't trying to pass myself off as a Brit but they don't have any Irish flagged patches |
Can Inside Out Skiing cite any evidence from the ISIA on the use of its logo which validates what's claimed above? Or that validates the photo, which clearly wasn't published for an Italian audience?
The ISIA regulations are spelled out quite clearly here:
http://www.isiaski.org/en/2/mvo.html
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Member associations, their ski schools and their ski instructors can utilise the ISIA stamp only in connection with their association and their ski instructor status. |
http://www.isiaski.org/download/rules/Minimumstandard_en.pdf
http://www.isiaski.org/download/rules/Vergabeordnung_en.pdf
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Member associations, ski schools and ski instructors may
only use the ISIA stamp in conjunction with their association
or ski instructor badge. |
[/quote]
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Legitimation
Snow sports instructors who have successfully passed their country's national
training and exams that meet the ISIA minimum standard for the ISIA
stamp or ISIA card will receive the ISIA stamp or ISIA card and the ISIA
badge from the respective membership association. |
On that basis, there are clearly no circumstances in which a non-ISIA ski instructor can wear an ISIA badge.
David Goldsmith
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Not sure if I'm totally bored with this or a little bit embarrassed for DG.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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big_ben wrote: |
Not sure if I'm totally bored with this or a little bit embarrassed for DG..... |
He should be embarrassed for himself. This is beyond grotesque.
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The funny thing is nobody in the photo is wearing an ISIA badge @Davina Goldballs, they are wearing a logo issued by a local ski school that contains the ISIA logo within it. An ISIA badge is a silver colored metal pin that is a fixed to jackets and has no national flag on it. If I can work it out I will post a picture of mine
Any query about the logo should be addressed to the ski school, much like the Aosta valley, where the ski schools issue badges, to visiting instructors, one almost identical to this with both an Italian and instructors nation flag on it. The ski school in Courmayer, issue one with a bunny rabbit logo on it.
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Let me see if I understand this...
"...the regional authority in Trentino send us a temporary licence...
foreign instructors need to carry our temporary license paperwork on us AND wear an arm badge patch...
so that the local Police are able to easily see who is legitimate...
patches were provided via the local ski school...
patches have either a Maestro logo (for Italians from other Italian regions) or ISIA logo with their respective national flag for foreigners..."
Yep, all makes perfect sense can't see how anybody wouldn't understand that. You'd have to be pretty thick not to.
"...Mr. Goldsmith may be confused..."
Now that statement I could take issue withIf the badges had a picture of MickeyMouse on then would he demand proof that they were licenced by the Disney Corp'?... Actually we probably know the answer to that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Fattes13, exactly,... by the way have you ever noticed that all IASI licenses have the ISIA logo on them? Perhaps we should start a campaign against all Irish (IASI) L1 and L2 instructors for passing themselves off by using the ISIA logo
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@skimottaret, or maybe even for just using the same 4 letters but in a different order.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The (lack off) replies on poo-poo.hub kind of gives away how much airplay it gets with the masses, posting links to here only serves to provide further coverage to a media that isn't going to happen organically in itself. Move on folks, let DG post his one a day.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Fattes13 wrote: |
The funny thing is nobody in the photo is wearing an ISIA badge @Davina Goldballs ... |
Should've gone to Specsavers.
Or maybe we're not looking at the same photo
The four matching badges I'm looking at all say "SKI TEACHER" ... with the Union Flag and ISIA badge/logo.
"SKI TEACHER" = classically, the phrase reserved for highly-qualified (level 3+) BASI-ISIA ski instructors.
We're asked to believe that this badge-wearing exercise was solely to help the Italian police. But that photo stunt was most certainly published to impress UK skiers and potential clients that all Inside Out instructors are ISIA qualified. That photo was not produced for the benefit of the
I am accused on this thread of being a "troll", "nasty, obsessive and vindictive", "beyond groteque" etc. These are cheap shots but let's accept that those contributors to this forum who enjoy freedom of expression, no censorship, and unrestricted rights to slag off other members of the community ... seem to enjoy that privilege for commercial or monetary reasons.
I have no commercial relationship with snowHeads, apart from contributing £30 cash on two occasions to hopefully protect it as an organ of free discussion/debate ... where we address each other as equals and respect civilised rules of debate.
What a great investment !
skimottaret wrote: |
... have you ever noticed that all IASI licenses have the ISIA logo on them? |
Fattes13 wrote: |
Actually forgot it is used on every license from Level 1 for every organisation that is a member of ISIA. |
More herrings in red ski instructor jackets.
Ski instructor licences are issued by national ski instructor associations, most of which are members of the ISIA and have a range of qualifications ... some of which (higher grades) are ISIA, and others which are not.
But this is not about licences. It's about ski instructors wearing ISIA badges. It's about the 99%+ BASI level 2 members who don't wear ISIA badges (because they're not ISIA).
Come on, Rob, fess up - you shouldn't have worn that badge and posed in that photo with it !
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks for drawing my attention to this @Davina Goldballs. I had been meaning to book on with IOS for some time now, but my schedule never aligned with their clinic availability. Thanks to this thread, I had a look yesterday and found a clinic that I was interested in and fit with my schedule, so I booked it. I can always improve and I love taking a few lessons throughout the year. What’s more, I noticed the £50 off offer for first time SH's, so again thanks… I guess I owe you a beer for saving me some £.
I’ve been hanging out on SH for a little over a year and in that time it’s easy to notice a pattern of those that are helpful and generous in their time and those that are a waste of bandwidth. I know where I place @skimottaret, @rob@rar.
Thanks again!
Rich
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 14-10-16 11:49; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What a complete knob
If I had an issue with someone falsely claiming to be an accredited gas engineer, what would I do - Oh I know, go on some gas engineers website and winge about it. Much better than reporting it to the relevant body that actually deals with these matters
Some people really ought to get a life; but then winging IS DGs life and who are we to deprive him of that
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 14-10-16 11:27; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ahh I've worked out part of the problem - amongst all his other failings he's colour blind
Quote: |
More herrings in red ski instructor jackets
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they are wearing blue
and I thought we established already that the logo is not the badge - we know the badge is small, silver and pins to a jacket and the logo can be applied in a variety of circumstances, too numerous to mention all, but including to the side of a car (not sure what that implies about the car's passengers!!)
Oh, and as a L1 who has to annually show my Head of Snowsports my license, with its ISIA logo on it, - and be prepared to show it to a client if they were ever to ask - I don't know what I'd describe myself as other than someone who teaches/instructs on 'how to ski' which is surely not a misrepresentation of me or my license??
This is my first post, although I've been a SH for a few years, I normally don't feel the need to contribute, but having seen the personal attacks on two of the best guys out there (and by implication their business) I have to chip in. Inside Out are amazing, I should know, at one point I held the record for most clinics attended and so I consider myself their best customer and wear my hoody with pride. With their help and support I've gone from barely skiing parallel and afraid of anything a tiny bit steep to a achieving a L1 license! You might think that's not much of a big deal, but I didn't start skiing until my late 30's, am no svelte goddess and have some issues with spacial awareness and co-ordination that would make a saint cry - although amazingly neither Rob or Scott have (or at least not in front of me... yet...)
Hopefully 'he who should not be named' will go back into his box soon letting the Inside Out team focus on their ski plans for the coming season without having this persistent nonsense plaguing them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I worked at Somerfield when I was a kid.
I had to wear a badge with my name on it ('Ben' for those that don't know).
I was constantly being mistaken for the CEO of Somerfield.
This also happened (although a little differently) when I was a teacher in the UK (don't panic... I'm sure I was some kind of level 3 thing to be called a 'teacher'... infact I was a music teacher and had a couple of grade thingies and a degree and everything!)
We had to wear a sticker with our names on. As I was well good at all that IT stuff I made some badges for the department with the school name and logo on it.... the amount of times I was mistaken for both the Head Teacher and the board of governors was just preposterous!
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Quote: |
More herrings in red ski instructor jackets.
Ski instructor licences are issued by national ski instructor associations, most of which are members of the ISIA and have a range of qualifications ... some of which (higher grades) are ISIA, and others which are not.
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By your logic the badge should not feature on any license below L3, it does. As for YOUR definition of Ski Teacher, the Austrian system considers Anwärter a ski instructor but they are only level 1 & 2 Same for the Swiss with the Kidnerwär and Aspirant levels. So YOUR classical interpretation is not consistent with the rest of the industry, in fact your interpretation of most things is unique so no surprise there. My Ski School jacket is Blue not red so once again you are incorrect.
1- There is no such thing as an ISIA badge, there is an ISIA Pin. Below is MY ISIA PIN, also included is two old instructor license L1 and 2 that feature the ISIA logo.
http://snowmediazone.com/the_zone/data/500/14699715_10210855927778765_2128153144_n.jpg
http://www.snowmediazone.com/the_zone/snowheads-personal-galleries/p35321-license-cards.html
Quote: |
But this is not about licences. It's about ski instructors wearing ISIA badges. It's about the 99%+ BASI level 2 members who don't wear ISIA badges (because they're not ISIA).
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Any BASI L2 working in that region of Italy, would be required to wear that badge, similar to other areas, Aosta Valley use a snowflake and bunny logo, some area of the dolomites use an AMSI badge
2 This is not the ISIA pin, it is an logo issued by the local Italian authorites that, features the ISIA logo.
3 Should IOS ignore the instructions of the local ski school and government to satisfy your weird personal vendettas with an individual?
As an ISIA instructor, or at any level I am legally obliged to follow and comply with the directions of the local regulatory bodies where I work and practice, IOS are no different here.
Sadly, the Ski Club of Great Britain no longer correspondence or tolerate your behavior, your ski journalism is no longer relevant, correct or informative, to the modern skier. So instead of doing something productive you have decided to attack and attempt to discredit an individual and his company.
I am not an IOS customer, but I am an industry pier, I am a full time ski instructor ISIA certified, working full time in the Swiss Alps, as a ski instructor and as a trainer for ski instructor aspirants, and have a long term relationship with a large ski manufacturer.
In all my passing interactions with Rob and Scott, in both Hemel, and the alps, I have found them nothing but Professional, courteous and friendly. They offer in my opinion an excellent service and product to their customers, present or future. Sadly all you seem to offer the ski world is bitterness and unfounded allegations of wrong doing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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RichClark wrote: |
Thanks for drawing my attention to this @Davina Goldballs. |
You're very welcome. Have a great trip.
dsoutar wrote: |
What a complete knob
If I had an issue with someone falsely claiming to be an accredited gas engineer, what would I do - Oh I know, go on some gas engineers website and winge about it. Much better than reporting it to the relevant body that actually deals with these matters
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Knob abuse, as a substitute for argument! Obviously I've done exactly as you specify there (though not on their website at that time) - the ISIA (via BASI) were asked to comment about this, 6 months ago. All this has been documented.
And Inside Out Skiing were asked for an explanation of the badges - which they gave.
Fattes13 wrote: |
Ski instructor licences are issued by national ski instructor associations, most of which are members of the ISIA and have a range of qualifications ... some of which (higher grades) are ISIA, and others which are not.
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That's right, but this has nothing to do with licences - it's about badges worn on ski instructor jackets, and what those badges say.
Fattes13 wrote: |
There is no such thing as an ISIA badge |
In terms of ISIA definitions, that's correct. The ISIA logo is called the 'stamp', and the ISIA stamp (logo) appears on the badges worn by the 4 instructors in the photo.
Fattes13 wrote: |
Any BASI L2 working in that region of Italy, would be required to wear that badge |
If that is correct, then why did the senior official of the ISIA and BASI not confirm that point? When the enquiry was made, BASI/ISIA said (on 27 April 2016) that the general secretary of ISIA was investigating this. A key question remains: is this unauthorised use of the ISIA logo (stamp) ... and who made the badges?
Fattes13 wrote: |
In all my passing interactions with Rob and Scott, in both Hemel, and the alps, I have found them nothing but Professional, courteous and friendly. They offer in my opinion an excellent service and product to their customers, present or future. |
No doubt this is quite correct. And they give a clear explanation of the BASI/ISIA grading scale, with clear definition of the phrase "SKI TEACHER" and when the ISIA stamp kicks in ...
http://www.insideoutskiing.com/info/glossary.html
Quote: |
BASI Instructor levels -
Ski Instructor level 1 - Trained to teach skiing up to parallel standard in artificial ski slopes within the UK;
Senior Ski Instructor UK - Trained to teach skiing up to parallel standard at UK artificial ski slopes, but with additional training in teaching techniques from the Level 2 course. With further training in a mountain environment can become a level 2;
Ski Instructor level 2 - Trained to teach skiing up to parallel standard on piste in an open mountain environment;
Ski Teacher ISIA - Trained to teach all levels of skiing on and off piste (within the resort boundary) within a ski school;
Ski Teacher Diploma ISTD - The highest level of ski instructor, can teach skiing on and off piste anywhere except for glaciated terrain or where the use of ropes or ice axes is planned. Can operate autonomously or within a ski school;
BASI Trainer - An ISTD or someone with the highest award in their discipline who is selected by BASI to deliver and training courses and examine instructor candidates. |
So it couldn't be clearer who is eligible to wear the ISIA stamp and the title "SKI TEACHER".
The ISIA rules in full:
http://www.isiaski.org/download/rules/Minimumstandard_en.pdf
http://www.isiaski.org/download/rules/Vergabeordnung_en.pdf
http://www.isiaski.org/en/2/mvo.html
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Quote: |
n terms of ISIA definitions, that's correct. The ISIA logo is called the 'stamp', and the ISIA stamp (logo) appears on the badges worn by the 4 instructors in the photo.
Fattes13 wrote:
Any BASI L2 working in that region of Italy, would be required to wear that badge
If that is correct, then why did the senior official of the ISIA and BASI not confirm that point? When the enquiry was made, BASI/ISIA said (on 27 April 2016) that the general secretary of ISIA was investigating this. A key question remains: is this unauthorised use of the ISIA logo (stamp) ... and who made the badges?
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There is no ISIA Stamp or badge that you were there is a ISIA logo that associations, who are a member of use on their license cards and in other forms
Interesting, you are aware that there is an investigation on going, and yet you have made numerous comments that imply there is something untoward about this one photo. Thankfully for all concerned under the principals of natural justice, and the right of Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat. Until the investigation is complete and until the relevant bodies arrive at a decision you should probably refrain from attempting to imply some kind of wrong doing.
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Probably by wearing one of these
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You know it makes sense.
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Sorry if this has already been asked\answered - but when are the awards announced?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Handy Turnip, Thursday the 27th at the Ski Show, I better iron a shirt
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'll be there on that date as well with the family so will have everything crossed for you too. Good luck
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Any news yet?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret wrote: |
@Handy Turnip, Thursday the 27th at the Ski Show, I better iron a shirt |
The excitement! Presumably this evening?
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I'm here and can't see anything on the boards about timing.
Enjoying the show though. Had a go on a skiers edge. Quite fancy one but not sure it goes with the lounge furniture.
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kitenski wrote: |
skimottaret wrote: |
@Handy Turnip, Thursday the 27th at the Ski Show, I better iron a shirt |
The excitement! Presumably this evening? |
Good luck guys!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks for all the good wishes, and the votes, it was hugely appreciated. It was nice to be recognised in the awards and shortlisted by the awards panel, but as we expected we weren't the winners this year. That honour went to Mint.
Will have to keep innovating and see if we are fortunate to be shortlisted in the future
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djf wrote: |
I'm here and can't see anything on the boards about timing.
Enjoying the show though. Had a go on a skiers edge. Quite fancy one but not sure it goes with the lounge furniture. |
I'd echo that - I'm here too and have been looking for signs on when it's being announced but haven't seen anything yet.
Quite enjoying the show, although I have drunk quite a bit of wine! And the free Hemel pass has easily covered my entry fee!
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