 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I said the French fail absolutely to translate a pool of talent to top level skiers
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That's so ridiculous and patently untrue that it's laughable and not even offensive 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| PG wrote: |
Of course it will rebound on the ESF in the end, and undermines any viable points in arguments put forward by the ESF ref the quality of independents and the skiing standards of their trainees, etc. No matter how accurate they are. Currently it's working to the benefit of a number of British schools, the adverse publicity combining with the obligation to employ fully qualified instructors ensuring that the likes of New Generation and others can charge much higher rates and still have largely satisfied customer bases. The system does stop the independents from growing more quickly though. Typical of the French - delaying the inevitable, a little like they have done with their wine industry. |
Unfortunately that is where your logic falls down - IMHO. There is at least 1 large British school ( and yes I could prove it if I had to, but avoiding naming them publicly will avoid the hassle) which does NOT exclusively employ fully qualified instructors. There are always ways around any system ( a practice we Brits seem to enjoy !). The sad thing is that this results in 'British Customers' believing that they are getting superior Quality but paying over-the- odds for something they patently are not receiving. I consider that much worse 'Business' practice than French restrictive practices ( although I still can not see how or why these 'restrictions' are worse than any profession in the UK which has a surplus of supply over demand for its services)
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eEvans, more than 10 fully qualified instructors and any school can apply for centre de formation status. And of course there are ways and means around the system  . But those that play by the rules suffer in the way I described, however.
As easiski said earlier, as the paying customer, always check just what you are getting for your money... before paying up front!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PG wrote: |
stevepick, I have at no time ever stated or inferred that
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it is better to be taught by a french trainee than a basi 2 or 3
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- therefore a large part of your post is misplaced. |
I apologise PG I misread the last line of your first post. I still don't think that my post is misplaced - you said
"Conclusion? Generalising hugely, I would much rather be taught by a French trainee as compared to a British one, but a British BASI 1 compared to the French equivalent!"
I would rather have a british trainee than a french one.
| PG wrote: |
I was not "detaching 'teaching' skill from the equation". I was asking that we ignore the equation as a whole for a moment while we look at the elements that make it up in detail. I have repeatedly said that teaching is at least as important as technical ability. Doh. |
No need to be rude PG - I picked up on the point that you think that french instructors are very good technical skiers because of thier race training back ground. I disgree - you only have to sit on a chairlift in a french resort and see that is not true.
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We can all come up with anecdotal evidence about individual experiences of tuition. No offence, but I prefer to listen to those 'on the ground'. |
I am not sure that what you are hearing from those on the ground isn't anecdotal either? If you want to have a discussion about things here ( the board ) then fine - if you just want to state that you know how it is why don't you make that clear in your first post..
| PG wrote: |
As for race results, all countries have ups and downs, and after a decent tally of gold medals and WC's over a lengthy period the French have been in a bit of a slump since 2003/4. It happens. No coincidence that the French Fed went bankrupt around then. |
I have always felt the French punch woefully below thier wieght in international competition - I am willing to be persuaded otherwise 
| PG wrote: |
Your brother: a racer and a BASI 3? How many FIS points in each discipline?
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None PG - they don't matter .
| PG wrote: |
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| ,The french racer development program is huge, and has a lot of organisation and money behind it |
I'm sorry, but that shows how little you know about that particular subject. |
I bow to your superior knowledge, its just that everytime I go skiing in france I see groups of school kids on race training programs( during school hours). These obviously only ever happen when I am on holiday , and obviously only in the ski resort where I am staying.
On the othe hand maybe this is standard practise in alpine areas so it would constitute a large and well organised race development program. Please do explain this to me 
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| PG wrote: |
| Quote: |
I said the French fail absolutely to translate a pool of talent to top level skiers
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That's so ridiculous and patently untrue that it's laughable and not even offensive |
PG do you really think the number of french skiers in the FIS top 100 over the years is representative of thier population? It just seems to me that smaller countries like Austria and Switzerland do much better per capita of alpine population. I would guess that the number of people in france that live within 2 hours of a ski resort is larger than the population of switzerland and austria combined.
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| PG wrote: |
eEvans,
But those that play by the rules suffer in the way I described, however.
As easiski said earlier, as the paying customer, always check just what you are getting for your money... before paying up front! |
Agreed, playing by the rules, they will 'suffer'.
The problem is that most 'British' customers would probably not have a clue about what question to ask of a school let alone the anser, nor would they understand the vagaries of the systems would they? I'm not sure I would be able to 'compare' French v Brit qualifications properly even after reading much of the learned stuff written here on the subject. It is probably the 'occasional' skier who suffers most - and their research will be limited to what they are advised /marketed ?
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I'm not interested in an "I said he said" exchange, but your comment:
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you think that french instructors are very good technical skiers because of thier race training back ground. I disgree - you only have to sit on a chairlift in a french resort and see that is not true. |
is just plain silly. Sorry if you think that's rude, but ask a British racer (a real one) or a fully qualified instructor if you don't believe me. If your brother is at an age to be a BASI 3 then your statement that he is a racer - without any points - makes little sense to me. Unless he only races on plastic which is another matter entirely.
Yes - I would personally, in my individual circumstances, rather have instruction from a French than a British trainee, having seen the embarrassing skiing standards of some on the slopes that easiski referred to earlier, because I'm bilingual, and because there is a sizeable gulf in terms of technique, whatever you say, in many cases at the lower levels. On the other hand for a British tourist beginner or intermediate, a good teacher might be preferable in an either/or situation. I did not say "it was better" to be taught by the French, just what I personally prefer.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="stevepick"][quote="PG"]
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It just seems to me that smaller countries like Austria and Switzerland do much better per capita of alpine population. I would guess that the number of people in france that live within 2 hours of a ski resort is larger than the population of switzerland and austria combined. |
Mmmhhh, how do we prove that one? Playing devil's advocate I would expect that most of the French skiing public travel 'longer' per capita than your average 'Brit' given that they access the slopes almost exclusively by car ! There are no major French connubations that close to The Alps (or Pyrennees) - I think Lyon is the closest ...
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| stevepick wrote: |
Your points about austria etc I can only agree with since Austria has better instructors ( in my indirect experiance). I still wouldn't want a trainee french instructor near me, although if they paid me enough I might be able to help thier skiing  |
Sorry, but I think this is unfair. I have seen good and bad from every country and i do believe that French instructors are as good as any around. However, the French system is the problem or to be more precise, the ESF and their desperate efforts to keep what they would like to be a monopoly on teaching and training. The ESF doesn't reward technical excellence but rewards length of service and conformity to the system. And despite what they say, the ESF don't care about teaching in any other language except French.
However, just because the ESF is a problem doesn't mean the French qualification system is. I would and do choose a French instructor over everybody else for myself, although my wife prefers a Brit for the kids. Technically speaking, the best instructor I have skied with was British, followed by a Frenchman.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| PG wrote: |
I'm not interested in an "I said he said" exchange, but your comment:
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you think that french instructors are very good technical skiers because of thier race training back ground. I disgree - you only have to sit on a chairlift in a french resort and see that is not true. |
is just plain silly. Sorry if you think that's rude, but ask a British racer (a real one) or a fully qualified instructor if you don't believe me. If your brother is at an age to be a BASI 3 then your statement that he is a racer - without any points - makes little sense to me. Unless he only races on plastic which is another matter entirely.
Yes - I would personally, in my individual circumstances, rather have instruction from a French than a British trainee, having seen the embarrassing skiing standards of some on the slopes that easiski referred to earlier, because I'm bilingual, and because there is a sizeable gulf in terms of technique, whatever you say, in many cases at the lower levels. On the other hand for a British tourist beginner or intermediate, a good teacher might be preferable in an either/or situation. I did not say "it was better" to be taught by the French, just what I personally prefer. |
PG - I am sorry I always get mixed up with the BASI grades my brother is a basic instructor ( I guess that was a 1?)
He is in the RAF so he doesn't get to race on any circuit, and couldn't catch Roger Cruikshank last time he raced him.
Its this thing about the french guys being better skiers, maybe its the mistakes that catch my eye, I am a reasonable skier , and I see all kinds of poor skiing from french instructors, and it is not a rare occurence. No "group" will ever be perfect. You stick with what your happy with and we will agree to disagree.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| PG wrote: |
| I understood the inference to be that certain operations were being maintained on a 'business' footing, ie making a profit, through a form of malpractice combined with a degree of deceit to disguise the 'poor quality' product. Cowboys, in other words. Some independents are owned by a small number of individuals, so there is a greater incentive to increase profit at the expense of quality - in theory - than in the likes of the ESF which doesn't actually employ instructors as such - instructors are all self-employed, and give a proportion of their income to the ESF to maintain the administrative side. |
I don't think the ESF need get too worried about that; trading quality for profit in any trade can only work for a short time before the 'cowboys' are found out by their customers and their reputation dives. In a sense, they should welcome competition like that, if they are confident that their own product shines in comparison.
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| stevepick wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| Quote: |
I said the French fail absolutely to translate a pool of talent to top level skiers
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That's so ridiculous and patently untrue that it's laughable and not even offensive |
PG do you really think the number of french skiers in the FIS top 100 over the years is representative of thier population? It just seems to me that smaller countries like Austria and Switzerland do much better per capita of alpine population. I would guess that the number of people in france that live within 2 hours of a ski resort is larger than the population of switzerland and austria combined. |
In France it is a minority sport, practised in certain extremely localised areas. It is not even televised live on the main TV channels. Racers - generally speaking - do not hail from centres of population "within 2 hours of a ski resort", by the way. The great majority live within minutes of the slopes. In Austria and Switzerland to a lesser extent they are mainstream sports. Their skiing champions are national heroes. In France, people are aware of them, but they are not feted to anything like the extent they are bei Meier & co.
While the French are going through a slump right now, they still average 10% of the top 100 in the FIS lists across the disciplines, and several reigning Olympic champions. They have some excellent boarders, freestylers and skierX practitioners right up there with the world elite.
Who cares though, it's nothing to do with the topic being discussed, and I personally hope that Alain and Finlay thrash the French next month. But if you want to turn what was a thread on what to do about certain ski school practices and inter-school rivalry into an anti-French rant, then you're doing a good job! 
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You know it makes sense.
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eEvans, without wishing to be pedantic, what about Grenoble? I wouldn't have thought it would be the case that there are more French living within 2 hrs of skis resorts than the population of Austria and Switzerland, but what does that prove. Most of the competitive skiers that I've met, still live in or near their home villages also most have skied because that's what you do in the mountains, the only football pitch in the Tarentaise is in Bourg St Maurice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PG wrote: |
| In Austria and Switzerland to a lesser extent they are mainstream sports. Their skiing champions are national heroes. In France, people are aware of them, but they are not feted to anything like the extent they are bei Meier & co. |
Well, skiing's been part of a school curriculum here until relatively recently, it's part of being Swiss. In a country where people don't even speak the same language common factors like mountains and cheese are important
That said, the Swiss team's been a bit hit or miss and the standard of instructors is highly variable and basically doesn't match international standards.
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Poster: A snowHead
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David@traxvax, Do I qualify as a total saddo for the following approximate pop statistics ?
Grenoble - 155,000 ( loads of students!)
Greater Gren - 430,000
Rhone Alpes - c. 4800000
Paris Greater - 12,000,000
France - 60,000,000
E & OE !!
I think the point was ( not mine) that France should have o/s winter sports results compared to others ...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eEvans, fantastic but surely Lyon is 6.000.000? I must resist these pedantic urges.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David@traxvax, Apparently the pop of Greater Lyon is less than 1.2m .... city itself is only 250,000?????? I promise to stop now !!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| PG wrote: |
| There is the third, and obviously preferable alternative. Someone who is bilingual who is passionate about teaching. |
I'm not convinced by that because...
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| There is no reason whatsoever why native speakers - who enjoy the teaching profession and are properly trained - should not be at least as effective as anyone else. Of course it's natural to speak their own language, but having studied at least one other foreign language themselves, they are clearly aware of the difficulties students encounter. |
...I disagree with this statement. A native speaker teaching their own language - in my experience - cannot empathise with the problems students encounter with the teacher's own mother tongue. They often don't understand why a particular problem should be a problem and are unable to offer workarounds, or analogies to help the student remember what is correct. They may be aware of the problems involved in learning a language generically but by definition they do not remember learning their own language. Their problems learning the students' language are going to be different from the students' problems learning the teacher's language. Moreover, they are at a disadvantage in terms of rephrasing an explanation if the student doesn't understand it the first time. If you're talking conversation practice and accent, and nuance even, then a native speaker is indispensable. But for nuts and bolts grammar (technique) and communication to the student I would always choose a native speaker of my own language by preference. The ideal, of course, which is what you get in universities, is a mix of both.
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| Anyway, imho, speaking French should come 'naturally' to a French teacher! If it doesn't, he/she must be pretty rubbish at the language! |
Define "naturally"? Able to speak fluently? Dreaming in it? It doesn't come "naturally" to me to swap between 3 different languages concomitantly, I had to learn and train myself to do so - doesn't mean I'm rubbish at any of them though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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eng_ch, well we'll have to agree to differ! Someone who has a degree in foreign languages has gone through all the learning difficulties their students will encounter, albeit in another tongue. And in the end it's down to teaching skills combined with the person's knowledge of the subject. I know an Olympic gold medallist who is an excellent communicator and and an inspirational teacher at our local ski study academy, and who - obviously - can practice what he preaches.
As for learning French when I was young, the best teachers I had were the French assistants and genuinely fluent linguists who had a bit of personality and a sense of fun. I learnt all the useful colloquial stuff, and was actually able to understand real French and Belgians abroad as a result, when on exchanges. The 'nuts and bolts' - that they also taught - came easily as a result. (Naturally = without the least effort.)
I remember the kids in a rough and violent CES where I once taught English for a year telling me how they actually looked forward to lessons. I could get away with the occasional hour of grammatical grind - that they actually seemed to be taking in - because as a 'native' I was a source of real info about a real place, the words they wanted to learn and no one else would teach them, a different experience and culture.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| PG wrote: |
| eng_ch, well we'll have to agree to differ! Someone who has a degree in foreign languages has gone through all the learning difficulties their students will encounter, albeit in another tongue. |
Yes, we'll definitely have to agree to disagree here!
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| And in the end it's down to teaching skills combined with the person's knowledge of the subject. I know an Olympic gold medallist who is an excellent communicator and and an inspirational teacher at our local ski study academy, and who - obviously - can practice what he preaches. |
We are agreed that communication and passion are the essential qualities in a teacher, along with fundamental competence. Excellence though imo is not necessary - it's a bonus. You *don't* need Schumacher to teach you to pass your driving test.
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| As for learning French when I was young, the best teachers I had were the French assistants and genuinely fluent linguists who had a bit of personality and a sense of fun. I learnt all the useful colloquial stuff, and was actually able to understand real French and Belgians abroad as a result, when on exchanges. The 'nuts and bolts' - that they also taught - came easily as a result. (Naturally = without the least effort.) |
I agree there's no substitute for exposure to the language and being dropped in the deep end is often a good way with languages. It certainly helps with the grammar if you can relate the nuts and bolts to real life.
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| I remember the kids in a rough and violent CES where I once taught English for a year telling me how they actually looked forward to lessons. I could get away with the occasional hour of grammatical grind - that they actually seemed to be taking in - because as a 'native' I was a source of real info about a real place, the words they wanted to learn and no one else would teach them, a different experience and culture. |
So you had novelty value And that's not an insult - anything that inspires students to want to keep learning is a good thing.
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| You *don't* need Schumacher to teach you to pass your driving test. |
Still, if it's a choice between Schumacher and someone who's not yet close to being good enough to pass their advanced driving test, I know which one I prefer
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| PG wrote: |
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| You *don't* need Schumacher to teach you to pass your driving test. |
Still, if it's a choice between Schumacher and someone who's not yet close to being good enough to pass their advanced driving test, I know which one I prefer |
I think this misses the point. A racing driver uses a very different enviroment and the skills needed are very different from the road. However, if you wanted to learn to drive around a track, you would chose Schumi.
So, if I want to ski on a mountain, I would choose somebody who can teach and who is the best skier I could find on the mountain. Technically, that will be the racer
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PG's point about how good trainee french intructors were due to thier race background
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No, No, No! I have never said this. 1) I was talking exclusively about their technical skills, not their teaching ability and 2) their skill levels are due to their race TRAINING background, which includes everything BUT gates prior to Jun1. By the time these guys are 18 they have spent something approaching 10% of their waking hours being coached, free skiing, in the park, the trees, and that's not counting the time they spend race training. This applies to all the alpine nations.
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stevepick, Well - I'm a Grade 1 and Basi 3 is pretty rubbish (sorry if that offends anyone). The French aren't qualified at all until they're the equivalent of Grade 1. I would say, that although I've skied since I was 3 (and am now 53), I don't ski nearly as well as most of the French instructors. I can never make up for the time they've had on snow that I haven't. The fact that I now ski 30 weeks a year is neither here nor there - so do they! I'm not saying they're necessarily better teachers (certainly not), and they're probably not better demonstrators either - but when push comes to shove in a narrow couloir with crap snow - I'm afraid you'd see a difference.
I don't have time to read all the new posts now, will when I get home (very busy week), but as for stagiares - if they were supervised as they're supposed to be it would be fine..... One British school here definitely used Grade 3s and Grade 2s to pad their school numbers BTW - I'm sorry training centres have been stopped, but it was a mess and the clients were suffering.
little tiger, Did you bother to read my post explaining the "Cartel"? Of course they have the race component - AUSTRIA, FRANCE, ITALY AND GREAT BRITAIN have sessentially the same top qualification - and yes it is equivalent to a degree (or pretty much a PHd actually).
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You know it makes sense.
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| PG wrote: |
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PG's point about how good trainee french intructors were due to thier race background
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No, No, No! I have never said this. |
Actually that is exactly what you said in your original post! You rave about how well these 20-year-olds ski and their race training and then (in you own words) conclude that you would prefer to be taught by a French trainee.
So what is your original post actually about?
That 20-year-old French skiers living in the mountains ski better than 20-year-old Brits? Stating the bleeding obvious
That set standards at BASI 2 and 3 are too low? Then say what you mean!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PG, I'm afraid I agree with eng_ch in her interpretation of your posts - whether or not you meant it, that is exactly what you did say (and to differentiate between a "race background" and "race TRAINING background" is splitting hairs at the finest level....you won't race at that level without having done the training, and if you're a kid/teen I doubt you'd ever contemplate going through that training if you didn't intend racing at some level, particularly if your mates are all doing so). If your main point was purely that someone who's grown up on the mountain will have more experience than someone who's grown up in flat snowless country then....well...yes, of course. But your title and final para go to a much wider point, i.e. the USE of trainees, so back to that point....
What level of Trainee (British or otherwise) are you considering in your comparison, and what level of pupil are you considering here? I can certainly imagine that you, as a reasonably competent skier (I'm remembering here we got into a bit of trouble last time I suggested you had a level of expertise ), wouldn't get much out of lessons from a BASI 3. Similarly I've certainly seen and skied with BASI 3s that are even worse skiers than me. I forget which the old 3/2 levels now correspond to, but looking at the BASI website, "Trainee Instructors" are not licenced to teach above "beginner and early intermediate level", and "Ski Instructors" (First level of qualification) are only qualified to teach to "parallel standard on marked pistes". If they're good teachers though they may be able to provide correction of faults because of their teaching rather than skiing abilities. So while Trainees would not necessarily be good for you and I, they could well be fine for someone in their first few weeks - just as when learning the piano it probably wouldn't be sensible to start off going for lessons with Barenboim or Uchida, but Mrs Brown around the corner would be far more appropriate...and she'll send you on to Uchida when you're ready for that level of teaching.
It's also not a given by any means that the best technical mastery will result in the best coaches (e.g. Bobby Charlton turned out to be a rubbish FC manager). A reasonable level of achievement is certainly required, but would not the teacher that has had to work hard to get to that level have more appreciation of the difficulties the pupil is encountering that someone to whom it's all come as naturally as breathing - or mastered it all before getting to junior school?
On the subject of beginners' classes though, why is it that the kids in the classes you see (and attempt to avoid) snaking around the mountain are invariably sitting with ramrod straight legs, bums as far over their ski tails as possible and chests virtually horizontal - all with an ESF uniform at the front? If the idea is to be doing things right from the word go this surely had to be bad news!
And I'm interested about your final comparison - on what grounds would you choose the BASI 1 over the French equivalent? As you're bilingual I'm assuming it's nothing to do with the language issue. (BTW I've never had a language problem with a French instructor/guide, who I've always found have had perfectly serviceable English, as my French is passable for getting about but not really adequate for receiving instruction).
Also, do I not remember easiski saying that she would not be able to pass the Eurotest now (age/bad-back/whatever - but if I'm thinking about someone else instead, I apologise up front) - and so wouldn't be able to get her equivalence if she were trying to do so now? But surely we're not saying that she's not a good teacher?
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Poster: A snowHead
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To be clear, a 'trainee' in France has to be basi 2 (isia) qualified, basi 3s can't work in France. This standard is fairly decent now, i'm not sure if PG is up to date with how strongly basi are now marking the grade 2 technical levels. I agree that there might be some iffy basi 2s who passed a while back but in my view the basi 2 (isia) is a decent standard. I know there are fair few basi 2s working in France with their eurotest as well.
I think PG is exaggerating the level of French trainees and being a bit tough on basi ones. PG reckons a good chunk of French trainees would be eurotest exempt, a good lot probably are. The French get 2 attempts at the Eurotest per season and there would be approx. 40 days of Eurotests per season with about 80 - 90 of French in each day. Thats a lot of trainee instructors, a typical pass rate is 8 - 10%. From what i've seen the basi trainees are putting in a lot of effort to pass, with a number of dedicated 2 month long pre season training camps.
I'm sure PG is a well meaning enough kind of fellow but he is suggesting a British trainee is of a lower standard. I don't believe this is the case at all. I think we should be more encouraging of British trainees many of whom are working spectacularly hard to reach the top level which has become seriously hard in more recent times.
Finally a grade 2 'trainee' in France could teach in most other countries in the world. Going for Basi 1 is really only for those instructors who want to work in France, become a Basi trainer etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do you see a difference in the standard needed to teach beginners (the bread and butter of your average ski school?) and that needed to teach aspiring intermediates upwards? For the latter I would agree strong technical skills are a neccessity - but to teach someone to snowplough I would think, on the technical side, you just need to be good at snowplough?? 
On a dry slope you (certainly used to) get lots of ESC instructors - who's chances of surviving an FIS course even without the gates in it would be minimal - but who sucessfully teach plenty of people each year to a steady snowplough level. Should this job be performed by BASI 1 level instructors? Would people be willing to pay for it if it was? Would any basi 1 want to teach on a dry slope? Now move the scenario to snow - why shouldn't someone similar do the same job, on snow, for the same (small) amount of money? Is snow inherently more tricky than dry slope?
For example in primary school one teacher teaches most subjects- despite not being very 'qualified' in any of them - they have a general teaching qualification. At secondary school you are taught by someone with a degree in the subject + a teaching qualification. When you get to uni you are taught by someone with a phd but no teaching qualification - you are expected to be good enough to extract what you need from them. In my mind this should be the same in skiing - beginner courses by someone who is good at teaching, intermediate course by someone highly qualified in skiing and with teaching quals, at expert level you just want time with guys that really, really know their stuff regardless of how customer friendly or easy to get on with they may be? The difficulty is right now it isn't very transparent and the most people aren't aware of these differences at all...
aj xx
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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eng_ch, 1) It was not a conclusion, just an opinion. 2) I didn't rave. 3) I would personally prefer to be taught by a French trainee for personal reasons specified elsewhere in this thread. 4) The point of the thread hasn't escaped the likes of easiski, and I have no intention of spelling it out all over again in any detail. I reiterated it mid-thread and it was promptly followed by your post that suggested it was a totally different discussion. It was not. The thread was raised solely because certain British schools consider that they should be entitiled to use trainees and that recent legislation barred them from doing so (legally). I was introducing one distinction between the French ski school trainee and British ski school trainee that people may not be aware of; the difference between the skiing standards of unqualified instructors from alpine and lowland backgrounds. It was a point registered in isolation, so that people could be look at this (while of course not ignoring the value of teaching skills). 5) I always say precisely what I mean.
GrahamN, A race background - for the majority of people - means spending a lot of time on snow gate training. That is not the case. It gives the entirely wrong impression. A race 'training' background is more accurate, in tandem with my earlier explanation of what this entails. My earlier post explained that the vast majority of ski racing club training involved free skiing, off piste, tree skiing, jumps, and generally doing everything except gate train, particularly up to FIS age.
BASI I instructors have a proven technical level, and generally speaking, even if not quite up to the skiing standards of people born on the hill, I prefer the teaching methods, enthusiasm and general approach of the likes of New Generation, Easiski etc to that of most ESF centres and instructors.
Jake, we're going in circles here! I'm talking technical levels only. As I've pointed out elsewhere, that technical difference is evidenced to an extent by the fact that a large chunk of French trainees wouldn't even have to take the speed test according to the BASI criteria. They're already well under 100 points, a fair proportion of them by the time they are 16/17 years old.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PG, thanks for yet another interesting trip through your mind.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Tim Brown, you're welcome. Feel free to reciprocate, it shouldn't take long.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PG, are they still going to rename BSM to St Peter's Bourg?
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Amazing, it took even less time than I thought.
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PG, that's what i like about you, simple things amaze you. For example: the fact that not everyone in world agrees with you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Much as I love exchanging good-natured banter with you Tim, I've a couple of things to write up about today's trip to La Rosière and La Thuile (you know that topic you're too busy sniping to ever post about on this forum... skiing, snow, etc)
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| easiski wrote: |
| stevepick,little tiger, Did you bother to read my post explaining the "Cartel"? Of course they have the race component - AUSTRIA, FRANCE, ITALY AND GREAT BRITAIN have sessentially the same top qualification - and yes it is equivalent to a degree (or pretty much a PHd actually). |
yes - I was responding to those that seem to think it is a "french" thing to have a race test....AFAIK everyone but PSIA have it some where... & I think some bits of PSIA are bringing it back - or thinking of it...
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FAQ
