 Poster: A snowHead
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(and why you should be very careful about locking your dynafits!):
http://blog.black-crows.com/en/24-05-2016-shattered-spring
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| i went head over heels. very fast. too fast. i knew exactly what was waiting for me at the bottom. an underworld beneath a bergschrund and a monster hanging glacier over which there was no return... on the next three impacts i felt my left knee shatter. i knew straight away that serious damage had been done. but still i didn’t want to cross the final hurdle. time seemed interminable. i banished any thoughts other than how i was going to stop myself. i didn’t feel the near-vertical blue slide of the bergschrund and to my surprise the snow where i landed seemed softer and deeper. i came to a stop. miraculously. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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amazing what they can rebuild - disgraceful what happened after the fall.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Speechless.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hmm always a danger I'd have thought somewhere like Cham. There wouldn't be so much pressure on first bin if it weren't to some extent about beating others to "your" line. Not much excuse for people to continue to sluff onto someone they know is injured though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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OK time for a rant, or rather saying what the mountain Professionals stood next to me on the bridge on the Midi said but will not say in public due to business reasons.
I was on the bridge on the Midi watching the events in the above unfold. Minna got hurt because she and others were very stupid. She did not get hit by anyone's slough, she was skiing much to wildly for the location, let alone the conditions (and I'll come to that in a min). The person in front - about 10 seconds ahead had just crashed spectacularly (something not mentioned in any of the blog or similar accounts I've read) so she should have already stopped.
There was a stupid amount of pushing and shoving getting onto the lift in the morning, most of this IMHO was due to pent up frustration at the lift opening 2+ hours late - no excuse for the pushing, but none for the lift being late either, it was open the day before and we get fresh snow 50+ days a year, deal with it CMB the rest of the ski world does.
The snow was fresh and deep, but light and heavy from the same storm on a sun and rain layer, so risk 4 of 5.
The first skiers into the Rond let rip, skiing it as though mid winter conditions and lo consequence terrain. Yes they are both very good skiers, but AFAIK neither has much avalanche training and one if not both of them have had previous near death (as in wake up in hospital many having been very luck to be rescued) experiences in the past.
There were way to many people trying to ski the Rond, but as for pushing and shoving, the second skier of the day was in the second bin, so hows that for pushing past everyone!
Skiing with your Tech (dynafit) bindings locked in no fall terrain, where you are considering one turn at a time can be a sensible option. Skiing at speed, regardless of turn size or snow conditions with you toes locked out is very stupid and Minna's injuries show. This is exactly what my physio said when I broke my ACL (by standing on a pebble ) 19/20 knee injuries in the valley are form wrongly used/set bindings.
Please be careful out there and don't blame others for your own stupidity.
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The description of the lift queue it sounds like an etiquette problem before they even started. Do you really want people like that above you in the snow?
I wasn't there, but if it was me who was injured, I'd be grateful if you could stop and check I was being looked after, but other than that I do not expect you to lose your first tracks because I cocked mine up.
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| Idris wrote: |
Skiing with your Tech (dynafit) bindings locked in no fall terrain, where you are considering one turn at a time can be a sensible option. Skiing at speed, regardless of turn size or snow conditions with you toes locked out is very stupid and Minna's injuries show. This is exactly what my physio said when I broke my ACL (by standing on a pebble ) 19/20 knee injuries in the valley are form wrongly used/set bindings.. |
^ Yip : A dynafit DIN with toe locked is equivalent to DIN 25+.
Your leg has strength of roughly DIN12.
I really don't like to arm chair quarter back when I wasn't there / don't know those involved.
However I wouldn't wish those injuries upon anyone (several years to recover and potential permanent disability).
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
...... A dynafit DIN with toe locked is equivalent to DIN 25+.
Your leg has strength of roughly DIN12....... |
I've torque tested most of the Dynafit toe models and for a 300 - 310mm sole length they release at 14/15 din when locked.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"i always lock my bindings to not lose my skis on a run. it’s a personal choice."
I wonder how prevalent that is amongst these strong Freeride skiers?
@Idris, Interesting to hear the other side of the story, many times when reading these post accident reports by the person involved they miss out what was really happening around them or justify their own actions which caused the accident and blame external events.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
...... A dynafit DIN with toe locked is equivalent to DIN 25+.
Your leg has strength of roughly DIN12....... |
I've torque tested most of the Dynafit toe models and for a 300 - 310mm sole length they release at 14/15 din when locked. |
on what axis ?
if forced a dynafit toe might release at 90 degrees when locked.
however it is likely not going to release vertically / other axis until the binding breaks or screws rip.
even DIN15 is much stronger than your leg.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 1-06-16 10:31; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@spyderjon, thanks I was thinking that didn't sound right to me.... but agree with Haggis that anything over 12 is pretty sketchy in terms of injury risk to the leg irrespective of boot length, weight etc...
I started another thread to avoid derailing this one..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Idris, thanks, interesting to hear the bigger picture! She didn't actually say she was taken out by slough though, just saw it and had to re-adjust line.
No matter how stupid it is to drop into (and let rip) something like the Rond in a 4/5, dropping in on someone on the Rond still must be more stupid..? Or is that just an occupational hazard in Cham these days?
Totally agree with you on locking toes though. I've also heard tell of someone essentially ripping their lower leg (other than skin) off in similar manner. It's a very big plus point for Beasts/Kingpins etc, even if they're only less prone to pre-release in people's minds.
| skimottaret wrote: |
"i always lock my bindings to not lose my skis on a run. it’s a personal choice."
I wonder how prevalent that is amongst these strong Freeride skiers? |
Very common when using light tech bindings IME.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
@spyderjon, thanks I was thinking that didn't sound right to me.... but agree with Haggis that anything over 12 is pretty sketchy in terms of injury risk to the leg irrespective of boot length, weight etc...
I started another thread to avoid derailing this one.. |
Didn't see the other thread but...
Edit: Found the other thread. Maybe move it to Equipment though?
Edit again: Still fits better here.
| skimottaret wrote: |
@spyderjon, thanks I was thinking that didn't sound right to me.... but agree with Haggis that anything over 12 is pretty sketchy in terms of injury risk to the leg irrespective of boot length, weight etc...
I started another thread to avoid derailing this one.. |
It's pretty easy to get locked Dynafits (TLT Speeds at least, but I don't think there's much material difference between any of the OG toes?) to release laterally, even with your bare hands. Subjective, but way easier than trying to release a 9 DIN alpine binding in the same way. I had several releases sidehilling on hard snow on wide skis when swinging the ski sideways into the slope to get better edge grip (lesson learned: harscheissen sooner and better technique!).
No idea about other types of release though.
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You know it makes sense.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
Or is that just an occupational hazard in Cham these days?
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I don't ski much in Cham but know enough to know that trying to "open" a particular face from first bin on a powder day would always involve a certain exposure to ego, testosterone and general self centred behaviour. Same as being in the line up on Waimea Bay or grabbing a big screen TV at Walmart on Black Friday.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Re release etc with DynaFiddles as I've mentioned before many experienced tourers I know use leashes, which I now also do, and they are manufactured by Dynafit, and not just for those sans breaks, though the vast percentage of users are sans breaks.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Idris, that pretty much sums up my feelings about the Cham 'scene' these last few years...
The 'Elevation' hardcore crew are no strangers to dropping in on 'lesser' skiers who may be taking a pause part way down one of their 'training' runs, but when the tables are turned suddenly it is not OK...
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Or is that just an occupational hazard in Cham these days? |
Yes, and one of the reasons I have skied there less and less over recent years...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Weathercam, the leash argument is a completely different one to the 'locked toe' argument...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wow, its been a while since I've posted here. There is a discussion going on at pugski and Fatbob suggested that we take a look at comments here.
@Idris thank you for your candid post. Quite often a blog that is blatantly one sided can be explained a bit better if the other side of the story is shared.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| , I kept my speed to ....... I’d ended up too far left, and too fast. The layer underneath the fresh snow was icy and unforgiving. My skis hit the uneven surface and I was sent flying.... |
Exactly the same wording could have been used by a beginner or intermediate skier similarly out of their depth and or too fast on more moderate terrain
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@offpisteskiing, I was mainly reacting to @clarky999, who said " I had several releases sidehilling on hard snow on wide skis when swinging the ski sideways into the slope to get better edge grip (lesson learned: harscheissen sooner and better technique!). "
In that the ski can then spirit itself off downhill, rolling side on side given the hard pack conditions, so the point being leashes would negate that probability.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Weathercam, ah, actually I was using leashes with those skis - btw @spyderjon's B&D leashes with the break points are much better IMO than Dynafits.
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| Idris wrote: |
| OK time for a rant, or rather saying what the mountain Professionals stood next to me on the bridge on the Midi said but will not say in public due to business reasons. |
Yeah well looks like Cham will be short of a Dentist for a few months but she's lucky to have survived. I've heard similar, although more measured, comments to your friend about this incident. It has been a bumper end of season in Cham and I can imagine some of the routes have been pretty crowded with both climbers and skiers.
Still that's at least a year getting better for her and she'll probably never ski at the same level again, especially as a woman of a certain age. It is very sad.
Steep skiing implies bigger margins of safety, not sure that is there when there is a queue of 30 people lined up to ski the slope.
That said I've had some guy trigger an avalanche by skiing an obviously wind loaded slope above me, luckily I'd seen what he intended to do and had put myself into a safe spot, unlike my three friends below. The guy could have waited 5 minutes for us to clear "his line". He was a shitty skier too, skied like a sledge. We were already 3/4 up the slope when he appeared from above so it wasn't easy for us to get out of his way. I'd even warned him to wait. So I have some sympathy.
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Is this route not all downhill from the cable car? Why would you use touring binding setup on something so steep and difficult unless you had to? The whole "I lock my touring bindings out" because it is safer in no fall zones thing seems a bit odd when you don't even need em to get there and the first thing you are going to do is "go fast, too fast"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ you need a very short skin (50-100m) to reach those runs and return to mid station of midi.
lots of people do ski pin bindings for every day skiing in the alps.
not my preference, however these days its is a valid choice to run pin bindings on all your skis.
however : think carefully what locking the toe means and likely consequences.....
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@skimottaret, one reason is that it's not possible to assess conditions from the comfort of your house so taking the kit that gives you the best choice of options is a good idea in the mountains. Locking toes out comes from a different scene than fast freeride skiing. It's been borrowed AFAIK from the times when people skied steeps in rock solid conditions where popping out of a ski was likely to be fatal rather than avoiding losing a ski.
This incident demonstrates the consequence of skiing at speed in tight conditions with a binding that isn't adequately setup (that's what locking toes really means). Whether Minna would have fallen or not otherwise it's not okay to drop in on top of other people in steep terrain. Particularly if people are skiing no fall terrain irregardless of how they choose to ski it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| meh wrote: |
| It's been borrowed AFAIK from the times when people skied steeps in rock solid conditions where popping out of a ski was likely to be fatal rather than avoiding losing a ski. |
Well the conditions that were being skied when the accident happened then. Minna herself says that having a ski not popping saved her from a fall over cliffs. One of the advantages of the TLT binding for steep skiing was the ability to lock them out in no fall zones, but as Idris says you tend to turn, assess snow, turn etc not rip the slope; or at least recognize the consequences if you do.
Before the TLT people like Boivin used alpine skis and alpine race bindings to ski the steeps - some very steeps that don't get repeated that much even now. Here he is on SX21s and Look turntable bindings I think. He'd have screwed the bindings down
Ok things have moved on and we see some of the big Chamonix faces skied freeride style by some of the top skiers; I'm thinking of Ducroz in the Courtes NNE (rated 5.2) but he was dropped by helicopter.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 6-06-16 12:51; edited 3 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@davidof, SX21s??
So that would be in like 1924 then?
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Yes it would be, more like SX91s, I suppose.
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You know it makes sense.
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| davidof wrote: |
Still that's at least a year getting better for her and she'll probably never ski at the same level again, especially as a woman of a certain age. It is very sad.
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I was catching up on what's happened to Minna Riihimaki. She's been in and out of the specialist hospital in Carouge in Lyon since May. Half a dozen operations. Currently walking on crutches her damaged leg has no ligaments left and the knee is completely floating. Skiing is not an option at the moment and not for some considerable time although she hopes to get back in the game at some point.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Can't say I'm biggest fan of the article. I looked at her FB page photos and clearly she enjoys life by taking risks in extreme sports. Accidents are part of the territory in this game. She wasn't hit by someone else and bombing down a mountain with other people means diversion turns can be expected.
With the general tone of the article, it's hard to assess the objectivity in the account of what happened afterwards too.
That said, I hope she makes a full recovery and gets back to doing what she enjoys.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
Still that's at least a year getting better for her and she'll probably never ski at the same level again, especially as a woman of a certain age. It is very sad.
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I was catching up on what's happened to Minna Riihimaki. She's been in and out of the specialist hospital in Carouge in Lyon since May. Half a dozen operations. Currently walking on crutches her damaged leg has no ligaments left and the knee is completely floating. Skiing is not an option at the moment and not for some considerable time although she hopes to get back in the game at some point.
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8 years later and an encouraging follow-up: https://blog.norrona.com/from-instant-shatter-back-to-where-i-belong/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
Still that's at least a year getting better for her and she'll probably never ski at the same level again, especially as a woman of a certain age. It is very sad.
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I was catching up on what's happened to Minna Riihimaki. She's been in and out of the specialist hospital in Carouge in Lyon since May. Half a dozen operations. Currently walking on crutches her damaged leg has no ligaments left and the knee is completely floating. Skiing is not an option at the moment and not for some considerable time although she hopes to get back in the game at some point.
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8 years later and an encouraging follow-up: https://blog.norrona.com/from-instant-shatter-back-to-where-i-belong/ |
Wowsers must have taken some serious effort to recover from that!!!
Re Chamonix, I was talking to a guide about doing some of the steeper lines there and as part of the prep he said he would need to see how I would deal with the stress of having impatient skiers putting pressure from above. Seems to be par for the course in Chamonix now…
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