 Poster: A snowHead
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Looks like you can get one now for sub-£300, and a few good options for £350-£360. Anyone seen any cheaper?
-K2 Float 15 + K2 float cylinder for £287 at www.bergfreunde.co.uk
-Mammut Ultralight 20 + Mammut RAS + Mammut Cartridge steel for £322 at www.bergzeit.co.uk
-ABS Powder base unit + ABS powder zip-on 15 + Activation unit steel for £360 at www.bergzeit.co.uk
-ABS Vario base unit + ABS vario zip-on 18 + Activation unit steel for £355 at www.bergzeit.co.uk
-Mammut Rocker PAS Ready + Mammut PAS + Mammut Cartridge steel for £362 www.bergzeit.co.uk
Still a fair chunk of money, but cost to rent is 25 EUR/day so it pays off after 15-20 days skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Themasterpiece wrote: |
Looks like you can get one now for sub-£300, and a few good options for £350-£360. Anyone seen any cheaper?
-K2 Float 15 + K2 float cylinder for £287 at www.bergfreunde.co.uk
-Mammut Ultralight 20 + Mammut RAS + Mammut Cartridge steel for £322 at www.bergzeit.co.uk
-ABS Powder base unit + ABS powder zip-on 15 + Activation unit steel for £360 at www.bergzeit.co.uk
-ABS Vario base unit + ABS vario zip-on 18 + Activation unit steel for £355 at www.bergzeit.co.uk
-Mammut Rocker PAS Ready + Mammut PAS + Mammut Cartridge steel for £362 www.bergzeit.co.uk
Still a fair chunk of money, but cost to rent is 25 EUR/day so it pays off after 15-20 days skiing. |
All of the above packs are too small. Everyone I know who's bought a pack that size has ended up going bigger which is why those in the know don't buy them which is why they're being sold off cheap. Get a 28-32L pack with good compression straps so when you're running light it's nice and shallow. I've got a 30L Scott Alpride & even when packed for pretty much every eventuality I don't need to remove it on a lift etc. And a 28/32L pack makes a better back protector.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@spyderjon, what are you carting around? Or does the canister etc. take up a lot of space? Just wondering as my usual day bag is plenty big enough at 14L and someone was recently trying to flog me a 5L one and I said it would probably be too small. Hmmm... I wonder if he got it cheap...?
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I bought the ABS 24L one which is enough for day use, I suspect if you wanted to go touring overnight then you would need bigger. I suppose it just depends on how much clothing flexibility you want, how much water you want to carry and whether you care about stinking!
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| @spyderjon, what are you carting around? Or does the canister etc. take up a lot of space? Just wondering as my usual day bag is plenty big enough at 14L and someone was recently trying to flog me a 5L one and I said it would probably be too small. Hmmm... I wonder if he got it cheap...? |
Can't think who that someone might be.. Anyway basically agree. I'm happy with my 22l float for resort skiing but wouldn't want much less space.[/i]
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@spyderjon, I'm just looking for a day pack. My 15L evoc pack fits in shovel, probe, water, spare gloves, hat, goggles, an extra base layer etc. The ABS base units have the advantage of being able to zip on different sized packs, and 30 litre pack would be £45 more than the prices above, so £400 ish. But I think a 15-18L size is ok for me.
The thing I don't like the idea of with the Mammut one is nitrogen... A slow puncture asphyxiating you. The compressed air refillable 207 bar alu is quite a bit more costly, and then ABS looks a better option.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The problem with avi packs is that the bag and the cylinder not only take up space but they take up space in the wrong places - so you end up needing a slightly bigger bag to get the size of space you need in the right places.
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I've gone through a fair number of packs now over the last five or six seasons, and it does very much depend on what you are using them for.
My OH also has been using them for the past three or so seasons.
Basically, if you are ski touring, and conditions dictate that it might be prudent to wear one (always a tough question as if you don't wear an ABS and still carry shovel / probe etc then why not the ABS), then 30lt is spot on for spare clothes, skins, grub, hydration etc. And it's so much better to have numerous access pockets which is something I found the ABS (brand) were limited on, though don't know whether they have changed that now.
If you're just doing lift serviced off piste, then for sure you can get away with a smaller pack, but then everythings going to be a bit of a tight squeeze when you start to pack an extra layer / googles / fluid etc
Back end of the season we were going to go up for a few days to dig out a refuge so that involved carrying sleeping gear, food and a whole load of other gear, and my 45lt pack was rammed!!
I was seriously impressed with the new award winning Ortovox AVA pack I saw at the SGIB test, so light and great design.
http://www.ortovox.com/de/avabag
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Weathercam, yes the Ortovox Avabag looks like a great product, but I'm sure it will be at the premium end of the market next season (£600 plus). The Avabag airbag is 640g versus the MASS unit at 1300g. For touring I'm sure the space and weight saving is vital. But for resort skiing I can't see it being worth the premium for saving 660g?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Scarlet, Most companies advertise their litre volume excluding the canister and system @spyderjon, for day skiing 22l is more than enough or for 2 day tours, for anything more than that yep you will have to go bigger
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
The compressed air refillable 207 bar alu is quite a bit more costly, and then ABS looks a better option.
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In a small bag like the 15l it's just too long and only just fits anyway but it makes the bag a bit misshapen and you really can feel it protrude as the bag is so tight round it, the disposable is much more friendly sized, as for being killed by it i don't think it's a risk worth bothering about considering where it's being used.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Themasterpiece,
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The thing I don't like the idea of with the Mammut one is nitrogen... A slow puncture asphyxiating you.
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All the cylinders are nitrogen, Mammut, ABS, Ortovox, etc, except the air refill ones from BCA, which are not as easy to refill as you think!
When a airbag is inflated the nitrogen in the cylinder mixes with air via the venturi system, so the airbag contents could be breathable!
The new AVA bags from Ortovox will be £524 RRP and then a carbon cylinder, the only option, will be £99
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just take the BCA canister to a dive shop or paintball place? That's what I've done, just needs to be dry air, not all paintball shops use it, but dive shops do.......
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| livetoski wrote: |
@Themasterpiece,
| Quote: |
The thing I don't like the idea of with the Mammut one is nitrogen... A slow puncture asphyxiating you.
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All the cylinders are nitrogen, Mammut, ABS, Ortovox, etc, except the air refill ones from BCA, which are not as easy to refill as you think!
When a airbag is inflated the nitrogen in the cylinder mixes with air via the venturi system, so the airbag contents could be breathable!
The new AVA bags from Ortovox will be £524 RRP and then a carbon cylinder, the only option, will be £99 |
Reading some more ABS (inc Ortovox, North Face, Scott etc which use ABS) uses compressed nitrogen.
Snowpulse (inc Mammut) uses compressed nitrogen in Europe and compressed air in the US.
BCA uses compressed air.
Maybe it is not worth worrying about, but if the bag is 50 percent air that is only 10 percent oxygen and not enough to breathe...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Themasterpiece, you're overthinking this re the gas used etc.
Can't see the point in having a pack size in which everything is so tightly packed that it's a major unpack/repack job everytime you need something. My 30L allows for fast'n'easy in/out when packed for the day and compresses down flatter than a 18/22L pack as it's a bit wider/taller - but then it's got the extra space if/when you need it. Given that there's v.little different in the price of an avi pack between an 18/22L & a 30L then the 30L is the more versatile solution. There's been a good few lower volume packs for sale on this forum & IIRC all the sellers have been upsizing - can't remember one who's ever been downsizing.
Of course it does somewhat depend upon your physical size as a big guy/girl is gonna have larger spare layers/gloves etc. And the bigger the skis the bigger the skins/crampons etc.
Scott used to use the Snowpulse RAS system which has a nitrogen cylinder but for the last two seasons has had an exclusive deal with Alpride (apparently the worlds largest maker of aviation & nautical life jackets) which uses Argon & Co2.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Themasterpiece wrote: |
| livetoski wrote: |
@Themasterpiece,
| Quote: |
The thing I don't like the idea of with the Mammut one is nitrogen... A slow puncture asphyxiating you.
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All the cylinders are nitrogen, Mammut, ABS, Ortovox, etc, except the air refill ones from BCA, which are not as easy to refill as you think!
When a airbag is inflated the nitrogen in the cylinder mixes with air via the venturi system, so the airbag contents could be breathable!
The new AVA bags from Ortovox will be £524 RRP and then a carbon cylinder, the only option, will be £99 |
Reading some more ABS (inc Ortovox, North Face, Scott etc which use ABS) uses compressed nitrogen.
Snowpulse (inc Mammut) uses compressed nitrogen in Europe and compressed air in the US.
BCA uses compressed air.
Maybe it is not worth worrying about, but if the bag is 50 percent air that is only 10 percent oxygen and not enough to breathe... |
If you are fully encased by an avalanche despite having full inflated your airbag then a deflating airbag is the least if your worries.
+ 1 for what Spyderjon said re sizing and the Scott Alpride bags...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Only negative re the Alpride, whilst having an excellent ski carry system that is very fast / easy to use, after using the carry system a fair number of times it really does scratch up the bag 
Only last week I bought a new non ABS ski touring pack (Vaude c/o SportPursuit) to replace my old Osprey that has done a good amount of vertical over the years.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@spyderjon, Agree with your comment re going larger....I've upsized last season from 15-24L ABS after years of convincing myself that smaller was better, one of my criteria was that it was done so long as the pack had the ability to contract via straps - then I'm all in favour of a larger pack. I have to say however I see some guys skiing with packs that are huge and wonder what the heck they are carrying round? Usually intermediate skiers, on-piste with probably half their wardrobe in their 45L packs! 
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| spyderjon wrote: |
@Themasterpiece, you're overthinking this re the gas used etc.
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+1
For the deflating airbag to kill you by saturating the snow with nitrogen you'd have th go through the following process of (hopefully) increasingly unlikely events:
- trigger avalanche
- get caught in avalanche
- avalanche is too big/small for ABS to do it's job and keep you on the surface
- despite size of avalanche be buried in a 'survivable' manner (depth and no trauma etc)
- bag pops
- bag pops in such a way that flow of nitrogen is directed towards your head
- rescue finds you too late to survive the nitrogen asphyxiation but would have found you before normal oxygen ran out
Ie, a vanishingly unlikely set of circumstances...
IMO, hopefully the vast vast majority of the time your airbag will simply be used as a backpack, so buy the one that works best in that regard.
I have a Mammut RideOn RAS 32 (or something).
Mammut have been making packs for years, and are very good at it. Even with the airbag there is lots of space for more kit than I need for most day trips, but the side compression straps mean I can strap it down to almost nothing when I don't need much kit. I can also easily take the airbag and cylinder out, so I also have a much bigger and lighter pack for things like summer hiking or hut-to-hut skitouring trips when I deem the airbag unnecessary in the conditions.
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When I bought my ABS vario I also got a £50 voucher, so I went for the light 18lt bag and then bought the 24lt sack for only £14. I have to admit though, that so far I have never used the larger one as at the moment my off piste is via lifts and 30min skins so avi kit, a light duvet jacket, skins and some food is all I need to carry.
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FAQ
