 Poster: A snowHead
|
I raised this as an aside in another thread, but it may bear looking at again in view of some more recent posts.
I, and paerhaps quite a few other snowHeads, would not consider venturing far off piste without a guide. However, I often cut off corners or across from one piste to another by nipping down an unpisted slope. These are not steep and are invariably well tracked. They are definitely not roped off! I do not have the knowledge necessary to make a danger asessment of the slope or the snow.
Am I being foolhardy?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Gradient, time elapsed since last snowfall, temperatures, exposure, time of day, wind, avalanche warning level, local knowledge, I reckon there are times and places where you can feel reasonably confident about corner-cutting. Davidof mentioned a couple of weeks back about the slopes which avalanche the most being neither too shallow, nor too steep. What was it, 30-45%?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Richmond - Hope not, 'cause I do the same thing  Surely cutting across from one piste to another, particularly when the distance is short, and the route is well tracked, cannot really be considered 'off piste', inter-piste perhaps?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
PG, I have none of the info you list, or I don't know it's significance. I doubt very much that I'd do it on slopes as steep as 30%, which is a pretty steep piste, no?
AxsMan, that's been my feeling, but some of the recent posts have me worried.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
the moment you are 1cm outside of a piste pole you are off piste, and your insurance needs to cover you for off piste. Take the factors PG states into account.
There have been avalanches inches from pistes.
Regards,
Greg
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| gregh wrote: |
| the moment you are 1cm outside of a piste pole you are off piste, and your insurance needs to cover you for off piste |
or you can just ski across the pond where there's just "in bounds" and "out of bounds" and as far as you insurance is concerned anywhere inbounds - piste or not is all considered the same.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Are there any terrain traps above your area e.g. steeper uncontrolled slopes, gullies, funnels? Its not necessarily your risk of triggering alone that puts you at risk.
In some cases I would say that in a fully controlled bowl for instance then being intra-piste is not that high a risk but unless you have quite a lot of information how do you know what has been controlled?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
richmond, 35-45 DEGREES (not percent) is the sweet spot for avalanches. This is quite steep - black run steepness and above. However, avalanches can happen at lower gradients, they just get much less common.
Other things to think about:
CONSEQUENCES - how much snow can actually slide? where will it take you if it does slide? if it's a small area between pistes even if it does slide there may not be enough snow to bury you or anyone else - you may take a short ride but not actually damage yourself. HOWEVER, if that short ride will take you over a cliff, into a narrow gully where snow can pile up, onto rocks etc, it is very much best avoided.
OBJECTIVE DANGER - the snow you are skiing on may not be in any danger of sliding itself, but are there slopes above it which could slide onto it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
One part of off piste skiing with a guide should be learning about slope choice and route choice and group etiquette. As in the recent tragic events, sometimes the guide is caught in an avalanche. They would hope that their clients would be able to rescue them. Suppose your off piste guide is hurt and the mobile phones cannot get a signal. Someone will have to leave the group to summon help. That means route planning and slope choice, it also means deciding how to split the group - how many stay and how many go.
Small off piste excursions without a guide, provided you have assessed the route and the risks and who you are skiing with, are IMVHO a good thing. After doing such a route it is worth asking yourself if it was a good choice, was it safe, did you correctly assess the risks, would you do the same route again?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
gregh,
Point taken re-insurance,(and of course you need to be covered for off piste just in case) but back here in the real world I can't help feeling there is a fundamental difference between a skier who 'cuts across' where clearly many have gone before, and venturing out into uncharted (or at least untracked) territory.
I appreciate that Avalanches can happen anywhere if the conditions are 'right', but I don't think the same degree of caution (i.e. carrying tranceivers, shovels and probes, only going with a guide) is called for to move short distances (on gentle gradients) between pistes.
Of course if there have been recent heavy snowfalls, and the distance isn't that short, and maybe the gradient is a little steeper then you do get into a 'grey area' but like life it's a judgement call don't you think?
BTW if you are at (serious) risk 1cm outside a piste boundary then you're not much safer 1 cm inside the boundary are you? I don't know much about avalanches but I'm willing to bet they don't respect piste markers 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
My post above was triggered by AxsMan's question in the third post, but everyone else has raised very important considerations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
thats what mates are for.. to drag your battered carcass back onto the nearest piste before calling for help
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| easiski wrote: |
| richmond, In response to your original question: if the slope is not steep and is not overlooked by either a very steep uncontrolled slope or an avalanche shute, and if it's well tracked then I see no reason why you shouldn't go there, and frankly, to be concerned about the whole paraphanalia of off piste skiing is a bit OTT. |
I think you're understimating the attraction that wearing goretex to the value of the average family car and rucksacks stuffed full of kit has when arriving at a mountain restaurant
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Helen101 wrote: |
On a more lighthearted note, I looked at the title of this thread and thought that richmond was about to announce a huge breakthrough in medical science :shock: :D |
it sounds an awful lot like this article from last week on Pistehors:
http://pistehors.com/comments/540_0_1_0_C/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| ise wrote: |
| I think you're understimating the attraction that wearing goretex to the value of the average family car and rucksacks stuffed full of kit has when arriving at a mountain restaurant |
That'll be me with the goretex and kit fetish then...
Davidof, that's the article that gave the quote that inspired the thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Last April I cut a lot of corners on the top half of the Aguille Rouge. But every time I did I looked at the snow, also at the bottom of the 'between piste' section above where I was intending to go to see if there were signs of slippage at the junction. All the time whilst skiing listening to the snow, feeling how it compresses. Identifying islands of safety, possible trigger points, existing tracks and noting quick ways off if at any point you notice things getting hairy. Basically low level paranoia. I am far from adept at identifying all the risks but try to learn all I can and never ever just head off without having a think about what I am doing and what the consequences just might be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Helen101, davidof, it was the comment by the chap from Tignes that prompted the thread. My insurance isn't a problem; I'm concerned about self (and family) preservation. I am definitely not capable of deciding whether or not a slope is safe, other than maybe by it's steepness and the number of people on it or who have been on it since it last snowed, none of which sound much use.
I guess that most of the off piste bits I'd be tempted onto would be immediatley below and above a piste or track, so there is presumably a sporting chance that they will be safe. I'll certainly bear that in mind in future, if indeed I again venture an inch off the piste without a guide and all the trimmings.
I have assumed that because some easily accessible unpisted slopes are roped off, often those off the side of a track, ones which aren't are regarded as reasonably safe when the avalanche danger is indicated as relatively low. That assumption seems to have been unwarranted. As Okanagan says, in N.America you can ski anywhere inbounds that isn't roped off and you should be safe from avalanche (touch wood), which is reassuring.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
| the moment you are 1cm outside of a piste pole you are off piste |
And how do you tell which is the 'outside' of a piste pole when you are in a resort where they only mark one side?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| RobW wrote: |
And how do you tell which is the 'outside' of a piste pole when you are in a resort where they only mark one side? |
Never seen that happen - where have you seen it? Sure it wasn;t just one side of a really woide piste?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
| where have you seen it? Sure it wasn;t just one side of a really woide piste? |
Quite sure. It's been a while, but consultations with the management suggest the Swiss side of the Portes du Soleil.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I'm making two points, the ludicrous kit punters have. I've just passed through Geneva and I swear half of hem probably have avalanche transceivers on in the arrivals
But also that it suggest a inappropriate amount of kit, just because it's more than required doesn't mean their risk assessment is wrong. To be explicit, I'm saying if they can't judge it OTT for the slope they're on then can they judge when it's not enough either?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I skied off piste today from the Aiguille Rouge at Arc 2000, mainly between the Dou de l'Homme and the Lanche blacks (close to the Flying K track). Although the runs proper were closed, the risk areas had been blasted clear, there were multiple tracks down, it was morning, and very cold. Three days since the last of the snowfall. I was with someone who had skied the area for the best part of thirty years. It felt right. He knew where to go, having no doubt skied it hundreds of times. The gradient rarely approached the 30+° discussed elsewhere.
It's a judgment call, and as someone who is extremely careful, aware of the peer pressure factor, and who tends to underestimate what I am able to do on the snow, I hope I will always err well on the side of caution. Although I'm a long way short of any degree of off-piste expertise, I have spent a long time in the mountains these past few years, and in the end it comes down to a mix of experience, common sense, and respect for the mountain and the conditions of the moment. Pretty much what ise is getting at, the ability to evaluate reasonably accurately what's going on around you.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 21-01-06 18:05; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
easiski, a bit more detail here, plus info on another slide at Val Cenis, four very lucky youngsters there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
However, you would definitely be considered to be off piste as far as insurance is concerned. 
