 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all, it looks like the train supporting website such as passenger 61 and snowcarbon are trying to raise awareness of the issue with the sleeper trains stopping and they have starter a petition.
https://www.change.org/p/sncf-save-the-french-sleeper-trains
I think this is a good thing to support as we really want to do next year as a family for all the reasons of fun, two days extra skiing, not air travel, price.
At the end of the petition it will ask you if you want to spend money to help share it further you don't have to do this at all, it's optional and tbh Facebook and forums are probably better for this anyway. I'm not the owner of this petition just someone who wants to use the trains. If anyone here can join in with a signature that would be great
I saw the post originally on reddit and that linked to a Telegraph article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/news/sleeper-train-service-to-french-ski-resorts-under-threat/
All the best
djf
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It would be a real shame to lose these!
IMHO It's been coming a long time though - the snowTrain used to run every weekend from Calais and then from Waterloo via Eurostar to Gare du Nord and a specially chartered sleeper from there. It was my favourite route to the Alps and for years, every time I rode it, it was absolutely packed except for 2 cars which were always almost completely deserted. These, it turned out, were the ones reserved to be sold directly to the public by Rail Europe/SNCF, all the others being allocated to UK tour ops.
It seems, SNCF's response to this, rather than to procure the help of the TO's or copy their methods to fill their own cars, was to blame the TO's for theirs being empty and stopped selling tickets to them altogether. Obviously, within a couple of seasons the snowTrain was no more.
After that, I used the French sleeper services out of Gare d'Austerlitz often, with the family - the kids loved the adventure of sleeping on a train, we got extra ski-days making it really cost-effective and it was so much less arduous than driving: a really fun way to get to the mountains.
...And this is all before we even touch on the environmental arguments.
If they wanted to improve demand, sensible moves would include offering a direct transfer service from Gare du Nord to Gare d'Austerlitz and making sure buses up the mountain leave after the trains' arrival. It would also be a tad less stupid to encourage group bookings rather than discourage them. I tried - oh how I tried - but as soon as U wanted to book for >9 people and/or commit in advance, the price went shooting up, no negotiation, end of story... end of the line.
As I say, it would be a real shame to lose these - a great service, mis-managed out of viability.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think people using them would be a more effective demonstration than a petition.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The Paris-Austerlitz to Briancon sleeper will still run.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| I think people using them would be a more effective demonstration than a petition. |
I'd use the train more often if the booking process wasn't so complicated. Two different booking processes for Eurostar and SNCF, with seats available for booking on different dates. If the train companies coordinated like the airlines do, offering a single booking process 330 days out with a single ticket across multiple carriers if necessary, then perhaps more people would let the train take the strain.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| I think people using them would be a more effective demonstration than a petition. |
I'd use the train more often if the booking process wasn't so complicated. Two different booking processes for Eurostar and SNCF, with seats available for booking on different dates. If the train companies coordinated like the airlines do, offering a single booking process 330 days out with a single ticket across multiple carriers if necessary, then perhaps more people would let the train take the strain. |
Agree - through ticketing with a transfer included between Paris stations would make a world of difference. I suspect that petitions are however worthless as are suggestions as to what SNCF could do to perk up performance - it will never be a matter that they have failed to adapt to the market always that someone else has cheated them.
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SNCF stopped running sleepers to the Swiss Alps years ago, the trains were always full in the winter and economically they apparently worked, the reason they stopped running may have been due to pressure from French resorts pointing out that all these skiers were not going to France , given French protectionism on other areas, it would not surprise me to find that this was the case.
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It's all quite amazing really. When you read things like the replies above you realise that it's quite possible it's for other reasons and not just cost efficiency. I'm far too trusting I think and never assume that sort of thing happens.
Everything I've read suggests people love these routes and options. Ironically it's the sole reason we chose les arcs this year. We wanted to do the sleeper train so booked les arcs as the best option. I know Eurostar will still run but I don't like the idea of sleeping sitting up (we'll still do it if needs must though). Had we known the sleeper wasn't going to be an option we'd have looked at other resorts. I do wonder if it will affect them.
P.s. Thanks to all who have signed. I agree a petition might get seen as "meh" by those selling it off. But it's great to see names on there and if there's a chance it'll help then that's great. Thanks again all
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@admin, we need a snowheads train for bashes - can you imagine how fun that journey would be  !!
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| djf wrote: |
| It's all quite amazing really. When you read things like the replies above you realise that it's quite possible it's for other reasons and not just cost efficiency. |
There's another thread about this. I think the principal reason is the rolling stock is clapped out and there are no plans to renew. It is possible for a third party to run the service if there is demand but not sure there is enough year round demand for it to work. The SNCF is principally interested in running TGV services and little else.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lol.
A halfa**ed online petition will do zip.
Only a proper French riot with roadblocks, railblocks and vandalism will save the trains.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Whitegold, the logic of road blocking a train to save it seems flawed to me 
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@admin, sounds like we used to do the same as you. Got introduced to the Snowtrain and then the Eurostar/Austerlitz sleeper when it finished. The extra 2 days skiing was very hard to say no to.
Another thing that seemed to kill off the Snowtrain was the tour operators getting their own planes, Thompson et al, and why would they put money in another operator's pockets?
Still can't give up on the 8 days skiing so we now drive.
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You know it makes sense.
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| PaulC1984 wrote: |
| @admin, we need a snowheads train for bashes - can you imagine how fun that journey would be !! |
Many years ago I travelled through France on a chartered train. Far too many decades of the Rosary were said, but good fun nevertheless.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It would be a pity to lose this service, but if it's not economically viable then I can't see a petition will make much difference. I used the sleeper train about 20 years ago. It was a fun way to travel, but of limited benefit. It's a flog from GdN to GdA and then the train gets in stupidly early. Unless you live in London I came to the conclusion it doesn't, sadly, make much sense to use the sleeper.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I think the principal reason is the rolling stock is clapped out and there are no plans to renew. It is possible for a third party to run the service if there is demand but not sure there is enough year round demand for it to work.
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Yes - I think this is it too. I think the economics are quite questionable as it is - the service has been supported by desire from the mountain towns to keep an efficient connection to Paris - not just for tourism but for business travel. But it is one thing mildly subsidising a service that needs no investment, quite another to spend I guess tens of millions on new rolling stock which will then lose money every year. It is a shame - I used it for the first time this season and it was a brilliant way of travelling from London (entirely take FTZ's point that it makes much less sense if you have to get to London first although I met one guy who had been using it for years from Cornwall!)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jedster,
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entirely take FTZ's point that it makes much less sense if you have to get to London first
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We are only 60 miles from London but it doesn't even make sense for us to take the Eurostar to Paris or Brussels. The total journey time is pretty similar (about 5 1/2 hours) but flight/transfer/parking can easily be found for around £100, while the train journey will cost around £270.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jd_evans wrote: |
Another thing that seemed to kill off the Snowtrain was the tour operators getting their own planes, Thompson et al, and why would they put money in another operator's pockets?
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Thomson, Thomas Cook have had their own airlines for many years, so I doubt taht was a factor.
And even with their own airlines, they still often use others (A significant proportion of TUI holidays use Easyjet flights rather than Thomson, and as another example, Crystl holidays flying from Bristol to Innsbruck use Lauda Air or certainly did the last time I flew that route).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
The total journey time is pretty similar (about 5 1/2 hours) but flight/transfer/parking can easily be found for around £100, while the train journey will cost around £270.
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Really? the Eurostar leg of my trip to St Gervais in the winter cost me Eur 100 return I think. Was booked sometime in advance though.
I live 35 miles from St P but work in Town. Travelling from home I'd still fly - we have to go past LHR to reach London. From work the train is great though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| ... the principal reason is the rolling stock is clapped out and there are no plans to renew. ... |
This. A further problem might be if there is a need, as in the UK, for overnight track maintenance work.
If there is no maintenance issue, then if there is sufficient demand there will still be overnight trains from Paris - they just won't be sleeper trains. With modern competition from airlines and fast motorways, it has got to be more effective to build more TGVs, perhaps with slightly more comfortable / reclining seating, than to renew rolling stock that may only get efficiently used for say 50 journeys per year.
This might even increase demand for the direct overnight Eurostar service from London, despite its really uncomfortable seating and the fact that it only really works for those who operate Saturday transfers.
And although the resorts get an extra 2 days lift pass and meal income, I am not sure that all TOs are fully in favour of the train option: at one end of the week they have to host two lots of guests at the same time, which is fine at some accommodation but can be problematic in others. Most don't appear to actively promote it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@jedster,
| Quote: |
entirely take FTZ's point that it makes much less sense if you have to get to London first
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We are only 60 miles from London but it doesn't even make sense for us to take the Eurostar to Paris or Brussels. The total journey time is pretty similar (about 5 1/2 hours) but flight/transfer/parking can easily be found for around £100, while the train journey will cost around £270. |
You've got to be fairly quick of the mark to get the very best price but Newbury <=> Gare Du Nord starts at £76 rtn.
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| Quote: |
it has got to be more effective to build more TGVs, perhaps with slightly more comfortable / reclining seating, than to renew rolling stock that may only get efficiently used for say 50 journeys per year.
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fair point
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I did it with mates before having children and it was great fun. But realistically for me these days it has no functional or cost benefits.
Will still sign the petition though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The sleeper train used to run every day of the week from Paris to Bourg st Maurice, but looking at the SNCF web site it appears to have been cancelled. This fits in with most of Europe where the sleeper service is being cancelled everywhere. DB appears to be cutting many if not most of its services. The Wagon Lits carriages are very old; many appear to date from before the Second World War. They also need dedicated locomotives to pull them that have little other use. I also suspect that the privatisation of rail services also has a lot to do with it. Why would Thello (for example) want to run a loss making train service from Paris to Brindisi when a high speed service with a number of changes would make more money?
Sadly, because I used to really like sleeper train (I think the last one I caught was the Sofia to Varna) the days of the sleeper and the really long distance train are numbered.
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it is such a shame that the sleepers look like they will be phased out. I have used both the T/O Calais to BsM and paris to BsM in the past, first time I went skiing was via the "disco" train and absolutely loved it, though I admit it would not be suitable for me now 25 odd years later going with the family.
As other users have posted times have changed with a plethora of (allegedly!!!) low cost airlines flying to and from the uk and Europe now. it can be a lot more convenient to get to hundreds of resorts compared to the relatively few resorts the train serviced.
But nothing will compare with waking up on a Saturday morning after a raucous night in the bar and seeing the snow on the ground and distant peaks, as the train goes from station to station.
happy memories!!!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@jedster,
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| Really? the Eurostar leg of my trip to St Gervais in the winter cost me Eur 100 return I think. Was booked sometime in advance though. |
@admin,
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| You've got to be fairly quick of the mark to get the very best price but Newbury <=> Gare Du Nord starts at £76 rtn. |
It's quite hard to compare apples with apples, so I simply picked some dates a few weeks ahead and then calculated costs for both flying and the train. It may be that the discounting models work slightly differently with airfares rising according to demand while train fares rise with time.
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Thought I'd give this a bump since 1st July has come and gone - any news on when we might hear if they received any viable proposals to save the service?
"The French State Department of Transport, which owns the national rail operator SNCF, has announced that unless a viable proposal from a train company is received by 1 July 2016, all but two of the night train routes from Paris will be axed"
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You know it makes sense.
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For what it's worth, I just went on to the SNCF website and its offering me an overnight train from Paris Austerlitz to Bourg-Saint-Maurice in early September. I'm not attempting to complete the booking since I don't intend to travel but, at the very least, the promise is still there.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sorry for the fred rift but does anyone remember Ski West and the sleeper buses to the alps.
Left Victoria with regular seats, stopped in a French motorway cafe where the seats were converted into bunk beds [ sort of continuous shelves ] some cognac would ensure a good nights sleep for me then you woke up in the alps for 8 days skiing. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| TQA wrote: |
Sorry for the fred rift but does anyone remember Ski West and the sleeper buses to the alps.
Left Victoria with regular seats, stopped in a French motorway cafe where the seats were converted into bunk beds [ sort of continuous shelves ] some cognac would ensure a good nights sleep for me then you woke up in the alps for 8 days skiing. |
I don't specifically remember Ski West, but I did do the sleeper coach thing from Victoria to Tignes, back in about 1985. With the hindsight of 30 years I seem to remember the experience being relatively painless. The entire week in Tignes, including travel, accommodation and food was about £110 if I recall, although that seems unlikely!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| dmac442 wrote: |
| For what it's worth, I just went on to the SNCF website and its offering me an overnight train from Paris Austerlitz to Bourg-Saint-Maurice in early September. I'm not attempting to complete the booking since I don't intend to travel but, at the very least, the promise is still there. |
Is that the on the first weekend of Sept? As far as I can see that's the last one, and normally they'd stretch into late Sept by now.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So if they have been cancelled, does that mean the only resort accessible by sleeper is Briancon in Serre Chevalier?
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FAQ
), a taxi to Cluses bus station where I met the convoy from uk and loaded them onto smaller french transfer coaches to all the northern alps resorts. I then rode back up to Avoriaz (doing ski-passes, ski-rental and ski-school lessons on the way), in time to do the coach transfer to GVA and back, finally getting the new guests into their apartments by around 1am on the Sunday. Loved every minute of it! 
