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Another collision in Flaine ( Not Fatal )

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Levi215 wrote:
True, i guess i assumed the OP is the camera person? Maybe the vis is good, sounds icey to me having now listened to it for the first time.

OP was the cameraman if you read the opening post, which I assume you would have had in order to make useful contribution to the discussion.

And he also commented on the condition, which was basically nothing remarkable, apart from the fact it was totally empty.

For all your going on about all the possible excuses because YOU weren't there, the OP was there.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Having read most of the posts on this thread I'm just pleased that Snowheads are not idiots and have never fallen over or accidentally collided with anyone else. It feels wonderful to be someone who makes perfect decisions every time, never skis outside my ability and is sufficiently omniscient to know exactly what was happening when the camera faced the wrong way.

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
Having read most of the posts on this thread I'm just pleased that Snowheads are not idiots and have never fallen over or accidentally collided with anyone else.

You may have read MOST of the posts, but you clearly missed this one:
jedster wrote:

yeah - what you have to do is take the risks in situations where only YOU suffer if you balls it up. I have fallen over a LOT - I agree its part of learning - but is not OK to hang it all out where you are putting other people at risk. Isn't this obvious?

Clearly not (obvious) to some.
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@abc, you're missing my point. This thread is sensationalist lambasting of some unknown person, with a single perspective being taken as the absolute truth when it's based on opinion rather than fact.

My point is that there are hundreds of unknowns and why not give the person some benefit of doubt? I'm not making excuses for anyone but attempting (obviously poorly) to highlight that there are other possibilities than 'some dickhead in flaine has hit someone again'.
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Levi215 wrote:
'some dickhead in flaine has hit someone again'.

Remove the judgement word, it's still undeniable someone is going too fast for his/her skill & condition!

Just look at how far the person slide AFTER the collision.
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anyone out of control will pick up speed, hence my point about someone sliding miles down a piste unable to stop and continuing to accelerate. Lose control you accelerate (generally), no doubt he/she is out of control.
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Levi215 wrote:
anyone out of control will pick up speed, hence my point about someone sliding miles down a piste unable to stop and continuing to accelerate. Lose control you accelerate (generally), no doubt he/she is out of control.

No, not on a red piste...

(and the OP/cameraman made no mention of ice)
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Don't know what reds you ski on? As I said, I've seen it on a steep red and as you've said because I was there and you were not (in the example) I am categorically right.... rolling eyes

On ice; having a go pro myself, it sounds and looks icey to me *shrug* maybe it wasn't but I'd expect the skier to send up clouds of snow and stop quick if it's soft...
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Levi215 wrote:

On ice; having a go pro myself, it sounds and looks icey to me *shrug* maybe it wasn't but I'd expect the skier to send up clouds of snow and stop quick if it's soft...

The video was quite long. On it, you got to see how easy the OP/cameraman AND his companions can control their direction/speed & STOP themselves
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@abc, thanks, still i think you're missing my point, but that's ok.
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Snow was a pretty firm spring refreeze. The OP and his party weren't exactly demonstrating strong levels of grip and precision. In such circumstances it's not beyond credibility that a skier whose bollox exceed his skill might get found out - at which point if you're in the firing line then....

so Levi has a point:?many many people don't see skiing on the limit of their skill as a problem or don't even know enough to know when they are in trouble. And moralising about how outrageous it is d doesn't help you when you're on a sled.
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Levi215 wrote:
Don't know what reds you ski on? As I said, I've seen it on a steep red and as you've said because I was there and you were not (in the example) I am categorically right.... rolling eyes

On ice; having a go pro myself, it sounds and looks icey to me *shrug* maybe it wasn't but I'd expect the skier to send up clouds of snow and stop quick if it's soft...


I really don't think you have watched this video Laughing

The slope is pretty gentle at the crash site, we see the OP and his mates skiing it first hand and they're hardly pros. Conditions are definitely on the hard side, but it's not exactly sheet ice and nobody is going to be sliding for hundreds of metres totally out of control on it (unless they are an idiot) Laughing The OP's comment just after the crash "how did he do that?" says it all for me.
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@uktrailmonster, true i haven't but i've seen the bits relevant to the point i'm trying to make?

I must have watched the crash bit without sound, but if what you say is true then the comment after the fact kind of proves my point? That moralising about how horrendous and terrible it is, without seeing it or knowing what happens is just sensationalism.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
foxtrotzulu wrote:
Having read most of the posts on this thread I'm just pleased that Snowheads are not idiots and have never fallen over or accidentally collided with anyone else. It feels wonderful to be someone who makes perfect decisions every time, never skis outside my ability and is sufficiently omniscient to know exactly what was happening when the camera faced the wrong way.

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


From the video and OP's description it was pretty obvious what happened. The guy smacked into the woman who was standing at the side of the piste. I'm sure he didn't mean to hit her, but that doesn't make it okay. If someone crashed into you while you stood at the side of the piste I'm sure you'd say never mind, not your fault it was just an accident.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Levi215 wrote:
@uktrailmonster, true i haven't but i've seen the bits relevant to the point i'm trying to make?

I must have watched the crash bit without sound, but if what you say is true then the comment after the fact kind of proves my point? That moralising about how horrendous and terrible it is, without seeing it or knowing what happens is just sensationalism.


There's nothing sensationalist about a prat crashing into someone on the slopes. It happens all the time. Are you saying it's okay to occasionally smash into the odd bystander while you ski beyond your ability and common sense? Or are you just saying that you can't comment at all unless you personally witness the whole thing and somebody else posting about it doesn't count, even though it's pretty obvious what happened? Maybe I missed the alien spaceship that flew across the piste in front of the guy and caused him to suddenly swerve and hit the woman.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

And from Scotland:

http://www.ski-injury.com/faq

Pleased to see, from a selfish point of view, that Telemark skiing has a low injury record.

Presumably because the speeds tend to be lower than alpine and perhaps because the heel is free, saving the knee, even though most Telemark bindings are non releasable Shocked
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@uktrailmonster, hmm think you're mixing up responses to specifics which are sarcastic to the overall theme of what i'm saying.
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@uktrailmonster,

We know he smacked into her, and we can assume he didn't mean to, but we don't know much more beyond that. Did he lose control before he hit her or just misjudge the turn? It's unlikely but he may have had a technical failure. We can say he made a mistake but it's hard to know how great that mistake was.. I assume she was stationery at the time, but I can't remember if the OP said this. The camera was not pointing at the accident, did the OP actually witness it? My point is simply that we don't know enough to draw any firm conclusions. Skiing is a sport where most of try and ski close to our limits, but within them. Inevitably we are going to get it wrong sometimes. In this instance we simply don't know how reckless the culprit was being.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
@uktrailmonster, Skiing is a sport where most of try and ski close to our limits, but within them. Inevitably we are going to get it wrong sometimes.

I think that's where our biggest disagreement lies.

Personally, I don't see skiing as a sport. It's a recreation for me, albeit a physical one. I see skiing not much different than hill walking. I may get all sweaty and tired by the activity, but I'm not 'competing' against a clock or my mates.

So no, I don't often ski close to my limits. Sometimes, I end up close to it because I completely misjudged the condition, or took the wrong piste. But by and large, such occurrences are not frequent. And exceeding my limit on top of that would be even less frequent. So when it does happen, in those relatively infrequent incidents, the chance that some one else being taken out as a result of my action should be extremely rare.

If, a high percentage of piste users ski close to their limits, then there is high likelihood of one or another skier exceeding their limit at any given time, AND in close proximity of other piste users. It's not an environment I want to see myself in. I think I would avoid resort where a high percentage of skiers ski close to their limit.
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abc wrote:

If, a high percentage of piste users ski close to their limits, then there is high likelihood of one or another skier exceeding their limit at any given time, AND in close proximity of other piste users. It's not an environment I want to see myself in. I think I would avoid resort where a high percentage of skiers ski close to their limit.


Don't ever ski in a popular resort in the Alps in peak season.
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Quote:
...there is high likelihood of one or another skier exceeding their limit at any given time, AND in close proximity of other piste users. It's not an environment I want to see myself in. I think I would avoid resort where a high percentage of skiers ski close to their limit.
Don't ever ski.

Many people on this site fall over or crash at resorts. Many of them even use body armour and helmets because they know they are beyond their limits before they start, even though they are likely to be much safer than the average.

Even so, you're still safer at a resort than you are driving to it.
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@philwig, It is a bit like flying. Flying is very safe but more pilots die driving on the highways to their jobs Sad
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abc wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@uktrailmonster, Skiing is a sport where most of try and ski close to our limits, but within them. Inevitably we are going to get it wrong sometimes.

I think that's where our biggest disagreement lies.

Personally, I don't see skiing as a sport. It's a recreation for me, albeit a physical one. I see skiing not much different than hill walking. I may get all sweaty and tired by the activity, but I'm not 'competing' against a clock or my mates.

So no, I don't often ski close to my limits. Sometimes, I end up close to it because I completely misjudged the condition, or took the wrong piste. But by and large, such occurrences are not frequent. And exceeding my limit on top of that would be even less frequent. So when it does happen, in those relatively infrequent incidents, the chance that some one else being taken out as a result of my action should be extremely rare.

If, a high percentage of piste users ski close to their limits, then there is high likelihood of one or another skier exceeding their limit at any given time, AND in close proximity of other piste users. It's not an environment I want to see myself in. I think I would avoid resort where a high percentage of skiers ski close to their limit.


I agree with this. When I'm passing people on the slopes (stationary or moving) I give them plenty of room. A lot of people pass way too close to others with far too little margin for error. I suspect that's PROBABLY what happened here rather than the more unlikely scenarios put forward. The bloke who was with the woman didn't have the body language of someone who thought it was an unavoidable accident and I doubt those on here who seem to be sticking up for the "idiot" would have been quite so philosophical about it had they been the one hit.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
abc wrote:

If, a high percentage of piste users ski close to their limits, then there is high likelihood of one or another skier exceeding their limit at any given time, AND in close proximity of other piste users. It's not an environment I want to see myself in. I think I would avoid resort where a high percentage of skiers ski close to their limit.


Don't ever ski in a popular resort in the Alps in peak season.


I don't for that very reason. Too many idiots around, like driving through Paris or Milan!
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:

Don't ever ski in a popular resort in the Alps in peak season.

I don't.

I seek out 'unpopular' resorts if I ski during peak season


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sun 15-05-16 11:27; edited 1 time in total
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philwig wrote:

Many people on this site fall over or crash at resorts. Many of them even use body armour and helmets

No, many on this site wear helmet/body armour because they go into the park, or off piste.

And many more wear protection because others who ski beyond their limit even in crowded piste
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This year I had my first skiing holiday for 27 years so I was unaware of exactly what my limits were. So it was a question of experimentation starting from gentle blue slopes to find what I was comfortable with. Compared to my previous skiing I was not as brave as I had been and was less inclined to take risks and I also was not as physically strong as I had been. These combined to make me less confident on steeper red slopes than I had been but by applying some common sense I managed to have an enjoyable time without endangering anyone else.

Yes I did wear a helmet for the same reason as I wore a seatbelt in my car before it became a legal requirement. Anything which on balance reduces the risk of a serious injury can not be all bad.
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uktrailmonster wrote:
I agree with this. When I'm passing people on the slopes (stationary or moving) I give them plenty of room. A lot of people pass way too close to others with far too little margin for error. I suspect that's PROBABLY what happened here rather than the more unlikely scenarios put forward. The bloke who was with the woman didn't have the body language of someone who thought it was an unavoidable accident and I doubt those on here who seem to be sticking up for the "idiot" would have been quite so philosophical about it had they been the one hit.


I'd have been looking up the piste to see what was coming; so if it had have happened to me i could have understood if it was an accident or not. Unlike those 'attacking this idiot' i'm taking a neutral view, not sure i've said it wasn't his fault i've simply said it might not have been....
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You know it makes sense.
Levi215 wrote:
uktrailmonster wrote:
I agree with this. When I'm passing people on the slopes (stationary or moving) I give them plenty of room. A lot of people pass way too close to others with far too little margin for error. I suspect that's PROBABLY what happened here rather than the more unlikely scenarios put forward. The bloke who was with the woman didn't have the body language of someone who thought it was an unavoidable accident and I doubt those on here who seem to be sticking up for the "idiot" would have been quite so philosophical about it had they been the one hit.


I'd have been looking up the piste to see what was coming; so if it had have happened to me i could have understood if it was an accident or not. Unlike those 'attacking this idiot' i'm taking a neutral view, not sure i've said it wasn't his fault i've simply said it might not have been....


So would I, but it doesn't make the guy any more or less of an idiot. It just makes the woman seem a bit naive. It's a bit like if you get hit from behind by another car. It's usually considered their fault entirely, regardless of what actually happened. Anyway I'm starting to wonder why you appear to be sticking up for the guy who in all probability was at fault. Have you got something to confess? LOL
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FYI, the OP's video does show just enough to tell that the man who collided with the lady was traveling at fairly high speed.

At 6:04, the OP looks slightly uphill and you can just see the man at the top of the roller well above where everyone had stopped. The OP looks to his right and then looks back uphill at 6:08, and the man is now completely out of sight. By 6:11, when the OP looks back around at the couple, the man had already hit both of them (hitting the husband first).

No one else skied past the group, so you can be sure that the person you can see at 6:04 is the guy who hit the couple. He covered a lot of distance in under 7 seconds and had enough momentum to knock two adults to the ground without coming to a complete stop himself.

When someone is traveling that fast and loses control, it doesn't matter if you're looking uphill. There's nothing you can do at that point to get out of his way.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 16-05-16 10:29; edited 1 time in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
uktrailmonster wrote:
Levi215 wrote:
uktrailmonster wrote:
I agree with this. When I'm passing people on the slopes (stationary or moving) I give them plenty of room. A lot of people pass way too close to others with far too little margin for error. I suspect that's PROBABLY what happened here rather than the more unlikely scenarios put forward. The bloke who was with the woman didn't have the body language of someone who thought it was an unavoidable accident and I doubt those on here who seem to be sticking up for the "idiot" would have been quite so philosophical about it had they been the one hit.


I'd have been looking up the piste to see what was coming; so if it had have happened to me i could have understood if it was an accident or not. Unlike those 'attacking this idiot' i'm taking a neutral view, not sure i've said it wasn't his fault i've simply said it might not have been....


So would I, but it doesn't make the guy any more or less of an idiot. It just makes the woman seem a bit naive. It's a bit like if you get hit from behind by another car. It's usually considered their fault entirely, regardless of what actually happened. Anyway I'm starting to wonder why you appear to be sticking up for the guy who in all probability was at fault. Have you got something to confess? LOL


Raising reasonable questions isn't the same as sticking up for someone. No one can stick up for the guy as we don't really know what happened - we only have some testimony from someone the footage clearly shows was looking the other way at the time of the collision. The footage doesn't even record evidence that the woman was stopped still - it is possible although unlikely that she had stopped then pushed off blind into the path of the "idiot". Our experience tells us that likely he was going to fast for his skill level given the conditions and then made a mistake which culminated in him hitting the woman but as has already been identified we don't know how culpable he is for the mistake (if it was a mechanical because the rental shop had set up his bindings wrong then that's different from him not being able to hold the radius of the turn he was attempting). Very few people set out to deliberately hit others on the slopes (certain young punk "games" excepted) but plenty don't really have the skills to have an acceptable margin of error.
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cerebralvortex wrote:


When someone is traveling that fast and loses control, it doesn't matter if you're looking uphill. There's nothing you can do at that point to get out of his way.


Yebbut you can drop a shoulder into their gut or take other deflecting action to minimise the damage to yourself.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
cerebralvortex wrote:


When someone is traveling that fast and loses control, it doesn't matter if you're looking uphill. There's nothing you can do at that point to get out of his way.


Yebbut you can drop a shoulder into their gut or take other deflecting action to minimise the damage to yourself.


True. But, judging by the little evidence we have, I think the guy might have already been going to ground when he hit the lady.
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Okay, so the guy was PROBABLY an idiot then, with the proviso that something may have happened totally beyond his control while he was attempting to pass the couple with plenty of margin for error. But obviously not enough margin in this case.
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uktrailmonster wrote:
Okay, so the guy was PROBABLY an idiot then, with the proviso that something may have happened totally beyond his control while he was attempting to pass the couple with plenty of margin for error. But obviously not enough margin in this case.


Yeah.

Having said all that if he'd hit me and I'd been stopped somewhere sensible he wouldn't have had his ski returned to him. He'd have been lucky to have his ski left on the same mountain. What better way to reflect on one's misdeeds than a really long walk of shame wink
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LOL, I was thinking exactly the same.
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I spoke to my friend today in the Blue jacket ,who didn't see it all but more than i did with the camera .
We had a big dump of snow the day before and it was bashed down and groomed for perfect skiing the next day .
As you can tell it was a bit cloudy up top but half way down it cleared and you could open up ,which i guess the guy who hit her did.As you can tell he was going quite a speed and my friend see him either trying to turn or unsuccessfully stop but his skis slid from underneath him and he was on the floor as he hit the bottom of the lady's legs from behind and she flew in the air .we are not sure if he also took out the husband or she knocked him over as she flew in the Air.
Basically he was going to fast and lost it.

And for those perfect people who never ever stop on the piste must ski on there own or are very antisocial
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