We witnessed another collision in Flaine ,luckily it wasn't fatal
We were there 2nd week of Easter Holidays 2016 .The piste was empty apart from ourselves and another couple.We happened to stop in the same place but opposite sides of the piste with plenty of room .As you'll see a guy comes hurtling down the slope and tries to go round the other couple but total misjudges it .Lucky there a medical Hut at the bottom of the slope but the woman appeared to be ok ??
Why did the guy who went over to the woman on the floor chuck a ski down the hill? On such a quiet piste there's not much excuse for hitting somebody, even if they weren't standing in the ideal spot.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@pam w, I thought that but think it is the ski of the guy who hit her, especially the way he threw t
think it is the ski of the guy who hit her, especially the way he threw t
yes, I thought so too - but a stupid thing to do. A stray ski is a real hazard on a piste. Personally, I'd have chucked it off the side of the piste and left him to climb back up for it. Normally I would pick up skis which have been scattered after a fall and carry them down to their owner, but on this occasion, maybe not! I did once enjoy carrying two skis, gathered across a hundred metres or so, to one of two young Frenchmen who had overtaken me on a steep red run at warp speed. They avoided me, by miles, but the second wasn't as good as his mate, and fell, cartwheeling down the piste and losing both skis. He wasn't hurt, and his mate, already having a good laugh was even more amused when the lost skis were gathered up by a little old English woman.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Well it was an empty piste apart from 5 people, he could have slowed down or stopped or went in the middle or anything else. What I couldn't see is was he going for a gap that was there but disappeared, or was he trying to stop and lost it?
There was probably a 10ft gap to the side of us and the same for the other couple and at least a 30-40ft gap in the middle ,so he had no excuse in my opinion
The Ski did belong to the Skier who hit her...I think her husband showed great restraint...I may of been tempted to wrapped the ski round the back of his head ,but only if he had a helmet on of course
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No excuse for the guy to hit her. The piste was virtually empty and the woman he hit was standing in full view on the side of it. The guy was probably a typical intermidiot carrying too much speed and little control. Seen it all too often.
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No excuse for hitting them but anyone who stops not at the edge above a steeper pitch and not looking uphill is missing out on an opportunity to stop themselves being hit and when enough people do it, positively contributing to the likelihood that someone gets skied into.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
As one of the few SHs who doesnt wear a helmet this is what gives me most concern.
I have confidence in my own ability and am prepared to take the calculated risk that is inherent with skiing but being wiped out by some out of control tosser scares me.
Throw my wife and children into the mix and it really worries me. Kids wear helmets but i will now expect my wife to so i guess i will have to as well.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
ianbradders wrote:
As one of the few SHs who doesnt wear a helmet this is what gives me most concern.
I have confidence in my own ability and am prepared to take the calculated risk that is inherent with skiing but being wiped out by some out of control tosser scares me.
Very unlikely to happen if you don't put yourself in the firing line and always stop facing uphill so you can see what's coming.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@uktrailmonster, this happens to be someone stationary, but the fatality in Flaine a couple of weeks ago was an experienced skier who was innocently skiing along, taken out by someone who was effectively out of control, in that they rejoined the piste blindly at speed. In that case a helmet would not have saved her, but in some cases it could.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
sj1608 wrote:
@uktrailmonster, this happens to be someone stationary, but the fatality in Flaine a couple of weeks ago was an experienced skier who was innocently skiing along, taken out by someone who was effectively out of control, in that they rejoined the piste blindly at speed. In that case a helmet would not have saved her, but in some cases it could.
I agree, but I don't understand how someone who has previously chosen not to wear a helmet would now do so just on the off-chance that they may get hit by another skier. That risk has been around for many decades, it just gets reported more widely now there's the internet and youtube. Personally I do wear a ski helmet as it happens and I do see potential collisions as a risk, but pretty low risk if you pay attention to your surroundings. There will always be the odd freak accident as there is even when walking around town. For example there was that poor woman around Christmas who got killed by a falling shop sign! Like the other guy though, I do worry most about my kids as they are very small (so any hit by some big fat intermidiot is likely to leave them in a bad way), they ski relatively slowly and of course they don't pay anywhere near as much attention to other slope users as an experienced adult would. In short they are pretty vulnerable on the slopes, but we never let them ski alone.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Obviously you can't excuse the fact that the errant skier has hit someone downhill, and that they should be aware of what is in front of them, but that 'victim' stopped in a very silly place. No need at all to stop there IMO
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Frank Lundy, what's silly about it? Looks like a wide open piste with good visibility in all directions to me.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I find the Grand Massif full of idiots, as a generalisation.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
uktrailmonster wrote:
I agree, but I don't understand how someone who has previously chosen not to wear a helmet would now do so just on the off-chance that they may get hit by another skier. That risk has been around for many decades, it just gets reported more widely now there's the internet and youtube.
I don't think that's true, I think the risk has increased as pistes have become more crowded and more grooming and better equipment has allowed the moderately skilled to ski faster. Anecdotal but I've been skiing for several decades, was never hit by another skier until recently but it's happened three times in the two last seasons. I'd never seen a significant injury in a collision before this season, when I saw two skiers go more or less straight into one another, one definitely hurt in the process.
@Frank Lundy, I'm with @Steilhang, on this one - if you're going to stop, stop towards the side on the crest and not below it. Looks like a very slick morning piste after a good overnight freeze to me - need to be cautious.
Stopping on the piste is not sensible. Stop to the side out of the way - that also applies to the person filming.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
Stopping on the piste is not sensible.
The official rule is that you should stop on the side of the piste. If by "out of the way" you mean right outside the markers, that's wrong.
As for deciding to wear a helmet, as time goes on this sort of precaution seems to be adopted by a greater number of people. You now see far more cyclists wearing helmets than there were, say, 10 years ago. And that's very true of buoyancy aids for dinghy sailing. The Swallows and Amazons didn't wear them, and they don't figure in pictures of dinghy sailors in the olden days. The risk of drowning has almost certainly decreased as the majority of dinghy sailors are taking part in organised activities with safety boats in attendance.
We are becoming more risk averse and safety equipment is better and more comfortable (modern dinghy buoyancy aids, for example, much less bulky and uncomfortable than old ones).
People also tend to become more cautious as they age. And everybody's doing that.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Frank Lundy wrote:
Stopping on the piste is not sensible. Stop to the side out of the way - that also applies to the person filming.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't agree.
1. As Pam W says, the official advice is to stop on the piste, at the side.
2. A large proportion of pistes don't have anywhere off to the side where you can stop. Either because of a bank of snow or a drop.
3. It's simply not necessary. If people stop on the side of the piste then there is still plenty of room down the middle.
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Actually, I stop anywhere I feel like. But I always stop sideways (as pretty much most skiers do anyway) with me facing potential oncoming skiers.
So if I'm stopping near the side of the piste, I would be facing towards the piste.
Sometimes you don't have a good choice of which part of the piste to stop. There maybe a group of ski school using the side of the piste. There maybe a line of skiers blocking the whole piste on the crest of a drop. Or you're just waiting your turn to get through a bottleneck full of intermediates who're over their head due to condition. (the film seems to show the piste condition was firm and fast? It's easy for a once-a-year skier to misjudge his speed in that kind of condition)
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I don't understand the term "no excuse", are we in a world where accidents cannot happen? I can only assume it is an accident as i doubt it was deliberate, if it was then it's a different discussion.
Have to take your word that someone was 'hurtling down the slope' as i didn't see it in the video, but i'm not sure what the point is here apart from, accidents happen be careful?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Levi215 wrote:
I don't understand the term "no excuse", are we in a world where accidents cannot happen? I can only assume it is an accident as i doubt it was deliberate, if it was then it's a different discussion.
Have to take your word that someone was 'hurtling down the slope' as i didn't see it in the video, but i'm not sure what the point is here apart from, accidents happen be careful?
I think the point is that where there is space you should be giving other slope users sufficient space that if you do have an accident you don't wipe them out. But it seems to me there is a secondary point which is if you see a group stopped as the OP's was don't stop at a point where you further narrow the available piste lessening the space available for people to have accidents (and there are very many skiers who fail at this when it comes to standing on top of rollovers onto steeper pitches). And when you are stopped to be looking uphill.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Levi215 wrote:
I don't understand the term "no excuse", are we in a world where accidents cannot happen? I can only assume it is an accident as i doubt it was deliberate, if it was then it's a different discussion.
Have to take your word that someone was 'hurtling down the slope' as i didn't see it in the video, but i'm not sure what the point is here apart from, accidents happen be careful?
Have you actually watched the video? Piste nearly deserted and perfect visibility. Only an idiot would smash into someone in those conditions. Unfortunately the slopes are not short of idiots.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
dogwatch wrote:
uktrailmonster wrote:
I agree, but I don't understand how someone who has previously chosen not to wear a helmet would now do so just on the off-chance that they may get hit by another skier. That risk has been around for many decades, it just gets reported more widely now there's the internet and youtube.
I don't think that's true, I think the risk has increased as pistes have become more crowded and more grooming and better equipment has allowed the moderately skilled to ski faster. Anecdotal but I've been skiing for several decades, was never hit by another skier until recently but it's happened three times in the two last seasons. I'd never seen a significant injury in a collision before this season, when I saw two skiers go more or less straight into one another, one definitely hurt in the process.
Yeah, you're almost certainly correct and it's one of the main reasons we stopped skiing in the more crowded resorts. Where we ski now is like turning the clock back a good 20 years in terms of slope users, so my personal risk hasn't changed much.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Are pistes really getting more crowded?
I thought the industry was bemoaning the fact that skier numbers are quite lackluster? At the same time modern ski equipment has made it ever easier for people to ski off piste. Maybe better lifts mean that skiers are spending a higher share of their time going downhill but I'd say this effect has not been huge.
Truth is I haven't been going back to the same place every year for 20 years so I find it a little hard to benchmark but its not obvious to me that the pistes are more crowded.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Levi215,
Quote:
I don't understand the term "no excuse", are we in a world where accidents cannot happen? I can only assume it is an accident as i doubt it was deliberate, if it was then it's a different discussion.
Then you don't understand much about safety, risk management and responsibility. Just because you didn't mean to hit someone doesn't mean that you were blameless. This is true in skiing as it is on the road. There is obviously a big spectrum from utterly reckless to pretty damn unlucky and that pretty much defines whether you have an excuse or not. In this incident there was no mitigating factor I could see - good snow, good visibility, no erratic movements by other skiers causing the guilty party to make a sudden manouvre. The only reason the collision happened is because that skier didn't allow enough margin of speed and distance for his skill - that means he couldn't be arsed to take responsibility for protecting other skiers. No excuse.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
uktrailmonster wrote:
Levi215 wrote:
I don't understand the term "no excuse", are we in a world where accidents cannot happen? I can only assume it is an accident as i doubt it was deliberate, if it was then it's a different discussion.
Have to take your word that someone was 'hurtling down the slope' as i didn't see it in the video, but i'm not sure what the point is here apart from, accidents happen be careful?
Have you actually watched the video? Piste nearly deserted and perfect visibility. Only an idiot would smash into someone in those conditions. Unfortunately the slopes are not short of idiots.
OK so for a 99% certainty this accident was caused by an 'idiot' skiing too fast for his/her ability
or just maybe......
the skier was preparing to pass with a safe gap when suddenly:
their binding pre-released as they hadn't realised it wasn't fully engaged due to an ice build up, or
they hit an ice cookie thrown up by the piste basher and momentarily lost control, or
during a carved turn the pivot rivet on their boot failed and they lost the edge and so control, or, or, or
some of the (unlikely) circumstances above could be prevented by better kit maintenance, some by skiing further within their comfort zone, but their all surely what we would all class as accidents (rather than the actions of an idiot). Which I think is @Levi215 's point.
And the inevitability whatever we do of accidents (and the actions of idiots) is why @Dave and @abc make the point about skiing (and stopping) 'defensively'.
** no doubt I'm wrong in all of the above, and now you all have the opportunity to tell me why
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
dogwatch wrote:
... I think the risk has increased as pistes have become more crowded and more grooming and better equipment has allowed the moderately skilled to ski faster. ...
I'm sure the statistics are available which would demonstrate or refute this. The US ski areas publish their accident rates per skier day... you're saying that those have increased... that is a matter of fact and easily checked...
Bear in mind that park injuries are to me at least a different category.
--
If you're going to stand on the best snow on an expert run, then you can expect experts to be riding past at reasonable speeds for that slope. If they hit you, then the law's on your side. If you feel unhappy about the speed experts ride at... perhaps you should consider holding your meetings on easier runs or possibly on the lifts.
Answer, injury rates are going down. Conclusion: people get old and get more worried about less.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
the skier was preparing to pass with a safe gap when suddenly:
their binding pre-released as they hadn't realised it wasn't fully engaged due to an ice build up, or
they hit an ice cookie thrown up by the piste basher and momentarily lost control, or
during a carved turn the pivot rivet on their boot failed and they lost the edge and so control, or, or, or
Indeed or perhaps he was struck by a small meteorite
As I said
Quote:
In this incident there was no mitigating factor I could see
and nor could you.
ALl the things you mention would fit into the "pretty damn unlucky" bracket that I described. And as I said - that would give you an excuse. SO what are we discussing?
@uktrailmonster, or someone who was pushing themselves because the piste was empty trying something beyond or just beyond their ability to improve.
@jedster, i absolutely do understand about risk management struggle to see how you would know whether i do or don't tbh... 5:30 - 6:14 doesn't show anything of what actually happened?
"The only reason the collision happened is because that skier didn't allow enough margin of speed and distance for his skill - that means he couldn't be arsed to take responsibility for protecting other skiers. No excuse." - or they were trying to improve their skill and got it wrong, or they misjudged what their skills were.
I'm not saying they're blameless and no doubt it's a dangerous incident. That said if everyone here has never skied beyond their skill level, then i struggle to see how anyone has ever improved their ability.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Levi215 wrote:
@uktrailmonster, or someone who was pushing themselves because the piste was empty trying something beyond or just beyond their ability to improve.
Well there are obviously different grades of idiot, from mild to raving. If you hit someone stationary on an empty piste in good visibility then you are an idiot. You shouldn't even be close. Obviously we don't see exactly what happened in the video, but the OP did describe what happened - "a guy comes hurtling down the slope and tries to go round the other couple but totally misjudges it". He was obviously out of his comfort zone and tried to pass too close. There was loads of room to pass IF the guy was in full control of his speed and direction.
Not where we've been skiing for the last decade. It's been pretty consistently uncrowded.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
That said if everyone here has never skied beyond their skill level, then i struggle to see how anyone has ever improved their ability.
yeah - what you have to do is take the risks in situations where only YOU suffer if you balls it up. I have fallen over a LOT - I agree its part of learning - but is not OK to hang it all out where you are putting other people at risk. Isn't this obvious?
After all it is free
After all it is free
philwig wrote:
dogwatch wrote:
... I think the risk has increased as pistes have become more crowded and more grooming and better equipment has allowed the moderately skilled to ski faster. ...
I'm sure the statistics are available which would demonstrate or refute this. The US ski areas publish their accident rates per skier day... you're saying that those have increased... that is a matter of fact and easily checked...
Bear in mind that park injuries are to me at least a different category.
--
If you're going to stand on the best snow on an expert run, then you can expect experts to be riding past at reasonable speeds for that slope. If they hit you, then the law's on your side. If you feel unhappy about the speed experts ride at... perhaps you should consider holding your meetings on easier runs or possibly on the lifts.
Answer, injury rates are going down. Conclusion: people get old and get more worried about less.
Well thanks for taking my comment entirely out of context. "The risk" discussed in that statement was risk of collision. I did not make any general comment about ski injuries rising or falling, nor in fact do I believe that skiing in general is becoming more dangerous.
The NSAA paper mentions the % of injuries due to collisions but does not discuss a trend. Absence of a comment does not imply absence of a trend.
The Scottish piece does not mention collisions at all.
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@uktrailmonster, True, i guess i assumed the OP is the camera person? Maybe the vis is good, sounds icey to me having now listened to it for the first time.
@jedster, I could imagine that... someone was trying to ski ice using edges and lost the downhill ski because it didn't bite. Looks to be on a Red so could be steep, maybe they fell well above them whilst trying to initiate?
In Feb i saw someone sliding down on a sheet of ice red (i was on a lift), he had already lost both skis (icey) and slid for 7-800 m unable to stop because of the ice. Totally out of control and unable to regain control because he couldn't get any purchase with his gloves, boots, arms anything. So he's sliding, picking up speed, could have taken all manner of people out (but didn't) he flew off the side of the piste and was stopped by a tree trunk.
Just think it's strong to jump to a moral based conclusion based on little to no actual facts, just some random opinion of someone got hit and it's another example of irresponsible piste behaviour. Not sure you can make that decision from what was seen.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
[quote="dogwatch"]Well thanks for taking my comment entirely out of context. "The risk" discussed in that statement was risk of collision. I did not make any general comment about ski injuries rising or falling, nor in fact do I believe that skiing in general is becoming more
I'm confused then about what you actually meant. Whatever, my point was that you don't need to speculate, you can easily find the truth.
My own feeling is that as people age they get more risk averse, and that effect is greater than the effects you mention. The perception of risk is not actually connected to the risk. My evidence for that I posted.
But I may well be wrong - my belief is based on the evidence, and there may be more or better out there which I'd love to see so I can better understand these issues.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I did once enjoy carrying two skis, gathered across a hundred metres or so, to one of two young Frenchmen who had overtaken me on a steep red run at warp speed. They avoided me, by miles, but the second wasn't as good as his mate, and fell, cartwheeling down the piste and losing both skis. He wasn't hurt, and his mate, already having a good laugh was even more amused when the lost skis were gathered up by a little old English woman. 
