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Critique my carving (early days)

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hello folks,

I've been trying my hand at carving on the last trip (EoSB), and I'd be grateful for any tips, comment , critique on how I'm doing. Am I even carving at all?

My initial thought is more angulation(?) needed

Apologies for the 5 minute potato quality video, it and myself are a bit wobbly to start with.
For reference, my experience is 2 weeks on the snow, and lessons and coaching at my local fridge (Tamworth). Very Happy


http://youtube.com/v/ZnbeRQM0mzg
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'm not a boarder but during the first 1 1/2 minutes there is no carving - you will know when you carve because there is no sliding or skidding at any point of the turn. Keep it up, it won't take long.
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@robin_mxx, Watch your track - are they pencil lines ?
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Thanks, yes there's definitely not the barest hint of carving initially!

It did "feel" like there was no skidding on a few points later on, and the track looked a bit "pencil liney" especially cutting across the slope, but I'm conscious this looks nowhere near the pros Very Happy
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@robin_mxx, Keep at it. Keeping an eye on the track is a 'tell-tail' and of course feel is critical too. No skid.... so perfect control of the boards rotation.
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@robin_mxx, Couple of brief moments early in the turn where you're on the edge but as soon as the nose goes downhill your weight is too far back and you smear the tail round. as the hill flattens around the 3 min. mark you're holding onto the edge a little longer. At the moment you're riding the board not driving it. Soften your lead leg rather than bend at the waist to put more pressure into the nose of the board to engage the edge.
The issue with carving is the speed you generate and how quickly you get there . . . that makes you want to put the brakes on Shocked

I'll be back on my board next eosb, see ya there Toofy Grin
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I would focus on riding generally, not specifically carving. I'm not formally qualified but you look stiff, perhaps because you're trying hard, but we all pass through that phase, it just takes time. I'd ride faster (maybe with music..) and focus on your stance and balance. Once or twice you bend at the waist which is a clue: you need to be "stacked and central", not deliberately leaning out or anything. The edge pressure thing requires your legs to push and pull subtly through the turn - it takes time to get a feel for it, but look at some carving video (eg Ryan Knapton) and you'll maybe see what I mean.

The feel of the "carve" is obvious when you get it right - it's like a turbo charger or a kick-down or something, it just feels so right.... but most people never get it.

That doesn't look like the easiest stuff to carve (although any experienced boarder would carve it). Maybe try to find some corduroy motorway piste and work on that. Then, the turn can be very subtle... just press the edge and wait a fraction until it takes off on you, then you'll know.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
yup as others have said no carving there i'm afraid, you need to be more relaxed and drive the board through the turn. Initiate the turn with your front foot then shift your weight to load the tail of the board and drive it out the turn. Here's a quick guide and there's plenty of videos on youtube.

Step 1—Practice tipping your snowboard on edge.
Strap in at the bottom of the hill to practice. Hold onto something sturdy and tilt your snowboard on edge. On your toe edge, notice that you have to drive your knees forward to tip the snowboard up. And on your heels, you need to drop your butt like you are sitting in a low chair.

Step 2—Carved traverse

Head to an intermediate run and practice carving across the hill in a traverse. Since you’ll be cutting across the run, be sure to look uphill to avoid collisions.

For a toeside traverse, keep your ankles and knees bent and tip your snowboard on edge by driving your knees into the hill. Add more pressure to your front and back toes…then try adding less (notice that you don’t grab the snow as well when you reduce the pressure). What happens if you reduce the edge angle?

On a heel traverse, think of sticking your butt out to tip your snowboard on edge. You should feel like you’re sitting into a low chair and your calf muscles should be pressing on your high-backs. Add more pressure to your heels…then less. You want to experiment to find the right amount of pressure and tilt so you cut across the hill without skidding.

Have a look at your track. If it’s a nice, thin line—you got it. If it’s wide and feathery, keep working.

Step 3—Carved garlands

If you want more practice, try carved garlands.

From a traverse, shift weight over your front leg to get your tip pointed downhill.
When you have some speed, tip your snowboard up and power-up your edge. You’ll make a bunch of toe turns in a row.
Try it heelside.
Step 4—Carved single turn
On an intermediate groomed run practice single carves. For toe carves:

Go straight and get some speed (remember speed will help you)
Put weight on your front toe to initiate the turn while tilting your snowboard on edge. For toeside, drive your knees into the hill to really get your snowboard on edge
Press down on both feet and let the snowboard carve
Turn uphill and come to a stop
If you do it right, the turn will feel sharp and fast and you’ll leave a clean, thin line in the snow. Do the same thing heelside.

Get some speed
Put weight on your front heel to begin the turn while tilting your snowboard on edge
Then press on the heels of both feet
Remember to drop your butt into the hill and press on your high-backs to really get on edge.
For larger turns, tip the snowboard on edge and add steady, gradual foot pressure to your edges. For smaller turns, tip your board on edge and quickly apply pressure.

Step 5—Link carves together
When you can do toe and heel carves, try linking them together.

Carve across the hill in a heelside traverse, now press down on your front toes.
When your snowboard points downhill, tip the board up on edge (really feel your ankles and knees tilting up) and add pressure to carve—but this time don’t stop.
When you finish this carve, cut across the hill in a toeside carved traverse.
From this toe traverse, press on your front heel to begin pointing downhill. Tip your board on edge, stick out your butt and add pressure to both heels.
Gradually reduce the length of the traverse between carves and soon you’ll be linking them together.

Carving properly takes lots of practice, so dedicate a few runs each day to until you feel comfortable. As you progress, you’ll feel the power and speed that comes from carving up groomers.
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Thanks everyone for all the feedback, it's unbelievably helpful getting an external view, I've just been re-watching the video in new light! This just makes me want head out to the slopes again and put it into practice, bring on winter! Yes, I'm definitely pushing a bit hard and trying to run before I can walk Toofy Grin

@Masque, I hope you're recovering apace, looking forward to seeing you at the next EoSB!

@philwig, yes, I've felt that kick down, when it feels great..but normally for me that's immediately followed by a crash Very Happy

@francium., Thanks for that, I'll be applying this next time Very Happy starting in the fridge this summer!
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:

you need to drop your butt like you are sitting in a low chair

Quote:

think of sticking your butt out to tip your snowboard on edge

Quote:

Remember to drop your butt into the hill


No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!

There is never a good reason to stick your butt out when snowboarding. It moves your weight off the edge of the board and ruins your balance. Dropping your butt is an awful way to get edge angle. Use your ankles to get edge angle and bent your ankles, knees and hips together to stay stacked over the board.

Disclaimer: if @francium. comes from "France" in any way, I'm aware that the dropped butt position is what French instructors teach and what they're assessed on in their own riding exams. It does work up to a point, but it's hard to shape the turn and it becomes very hard to stay balanced if the snow is less than perfect. Stacked and centred is better!

To the OP: as many have already said, your turns are pretty washy in your video above, but you're doing OK for the amount of experience you have.

Learn to make a clean, gripped traverse on both edges if you can't already. That's the carving feeling. Then learn just by having a crack at "park and ride" carving. That's just tipping your board on edge, holding a clean edge and just staying in that position. The side-cut of the board will take it around in a curve and just follow that all the way round. When the time comes, change edge cleanly and smoothly and do the same on the other edge.

This kind of carving is a good starting point, but will only really work well on wide, gentle pistes. As things get steeper and tighter, you need to make more dynamic movements to change the shape of the turn - but there's way too much info there to put into one forum post.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sat 18-06-16 17:34; edited 1 time in total
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Thank you @stevomcd, "park and ride" now that's a term I'm not going to forget! Very Happy
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
You can call it "tip and grip" as well if you like. Sounds radder. wink
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@robin_mxx, thanks, leg's good . . . ankles still a bit buggеrеd, it'll be a month or six till that's fit for purpose Twisted Evil @stevomcd's spot on the button, the pooping position was a terrible technique 20+ years ago rolling eyes And he's right with the 'P&R' technique, it's not the only one but it's a great base to build from. It takes VERY little effort to drive a snowboard well but you have to start learning how on quite gentle slopes and build up speed with control and confidence. NOTHING will spit you into the snow faster than fear.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
"tip & grip", "pooping position"..are you lot sure aren't just making this up this terminology? Very Happy

@Masque, FEAR?! I don't know the meaning of fear..... ok, actually yes thisistoofastemergencyfaceplant! Cool
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
i think this guy can carve better than you and he sticks his butt out.
http://youtube.com/v/q32-UhKJLo8
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@francium., No he doesn't and only when at extreme angles does he bend at the waist to increase the vector/edge insertion force by angulating. To incept some moves he has to lower his mass in preparation and that does mean that 'BRIEFLY' he drops his ass down near his heals. Jeez man use yer eyes rolling eyes

@robin_mxx, actually it's great vid, watch his slower sections and see how he's just using subtle hip movements to change the pressure/force going into the cutting edge and then relaxing and letting the edge do the work as "parks and rides". He then starts dropping and pushing the rear leg into the board to tighten the carve . . . BUT! what he's not telling you is that you need to keep your weight in that back leg going into your heel and trying to lift your toes at the same time (it's called peddaling). You're trying to twist the board nose into the snow and keeping that nose edge cutting the front of the track while the whole edge grips and tightens the carve radius. That's a lot to take in so just learn to begin and hold the carve edge untill you can roll complete and clean multiple linked turns . . . you can even do this in a fridge . . . When you can consistently do that you can start to play with driving and enhancing the carve.

edit: If you're not peddaling in exteme carving (or you're riding a race board or Squall) either the nose or tail will just wash out . . . you may get away with a couple of turns but you'll need to be SUPER relaxed to do it.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@francium., as @Masque says, Ryan Knapton isn't sticking his butt out in that video. He gets close to it occasionally when he's pumping the board really hard or setting up to pop/jump/spin.

I would also point out that he's riding a very gentle slope in what looks like perfect snow conditions... try to carve a steep, icy, rutted red run with your back bottom hanging out and you'll soon find yourself sliding on it...

I'm actually not a big fan of Mr. Knapton overall (have expressed this opinion on here a few times!) - I think his tricks are very, very repetitive and his "teaching" stuff is pretty incoherent, but he's obviously a very, very strong and naturally gifted rider - I really like how clean his spins and edge hold are. People who are that good get away with stuff that most mortals don't. I was on a coaching course once with a French guy who is a global-level pro rider and can do stuff that I can only dream about (cab 9 off the pro kicker, first hit...). Left to his own devices, he rides in a horrible straight-legged, bent at the waist stance. He gets away with it because he has a level of balance and agility which is way beyond most of us. The point to take is that watching pros isn't always the best way to learn.

BTW, I am one decent park performance away from being an ISTD snowboard instructor, have passed my carving exams a few times over. Sticking my back bottom out was one of the issues I had to fix in my technique to get this far. I am definitely a graft your way through it by hard work and a lot of failure type rather than a cruise through on pure talent type.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@francium., I do like watching Knapton's videos, how on earth does he find those wide open un-tracked corduroy pistes? But yes like @stevomcd says he looks like he's got bags of natural talent Very Happy

I'll have a good look at those slower sections @Masque. On the pedaling, I take it you mean twisting the front of the board "into" the hill?
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@robin_mxx, don't even think about pedalling your carves until you can consistently link cleanly carved turns in a "static" manner, maintaining a really good stacked-and-centred stance. After that, you can start to add other movements to tighten the turn. To really use pedalling in carved turns requires 2 separate pedalling movements (one at the start, another progressively through the turn) and it's too confusing to bring in right away.

You should already be using pedalling in all your turns to some extent, carved or not. If not, get some good instruction!
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@robin_mxx, as @stevomcd, don't even think . . forget I even mentioned . . . "peddaling" . . . concentrate on achieving a consistent, clean, linked carves BEFORE you start to modify the skill.

Essentially you need to be so relaxed mid carve you can check yer phone and eat a sandwich at the same time. Get it right and you can isolate upper and lower body movements to the point where you can throw a snowball mid-carve without upsetting your balance. and THAT takes nothing more than practice, practice, practice. The only real secret to snowboarding is the combination of practice till you find your 'comfort zone', understand that 'RELAX' is when you can feel and respond to the feedback your board and body are giving you, then gently push on.

It's easier to do than write it down . . . really! . . . carving can become a reflexive part of your sliding. It's huge fun on a long blue to just soften your knees, and roll your hips gently (Oo'er missus!) to change where the pressure enters your board and leave a long sinuous trail behind you . . .

. . . hmmmm "50 Shades of Snow"?
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Haha thanks @stevomcd, @Masque, I'll be sticking to the park and ride for the moment then...
maybe without the sandwich Very Happy
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@stevomcd, I'd love to have a 'park performance' . . . but all I'd do is land there and leak body fluids Evil or Very Mad
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@Masque, I'm a bit miffed as I really should have passed this year. I'm not the greatest park rider in the world, but should have been able to get done what I needed to do. Unfortunately, park conditions were a bit farcical on the day and I couldn't quite squeeze it out. Just bad luck, but were I a better park rider with more experience of challenging conditions, I'd have got it done, so I can't really complain (even if I want to...).
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@stevomcd, wait till you hit 60. these days I'm just happy landing a straight hit . . . but I do like my speed, I can still out fly most of the two plankers. Maybe when I get back down to 11st I'll go play in the park a little.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
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Masque wrote:
... carving can become a reflexive part of your sliding. It's huge fun on a long blue to just ..
Personally I was confused when, back in the days of rec.skiing.snowboarding, someone started talking about "carving" as a concept.
It had never occurred to me that "side-slipping" was anything other than people learning to ride. I suppose for those people I "carve" powder.

To me side-slipping is like snow-ploughing is to skiers - a way of getting down the slope, but not what anyone with any skill would want to do.

I like Ryan a lot and I like his style, which I think is very instructive. There's a big gap between what they teach beginners and how experts actually ride.
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philwig wrote:
To me side-slipping is like snow-ploughing is to skiers - a way of getting down the slope, but not what anyone with any skill would want to do.
A good snowplough is good skiing. Te equivalent of side-slipping a board is probably side slipping skis.

Interesting discussion - learning a lot as, mostly, a non-boarder.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The Knapton stuff is impressive but he is really strongly initiating to get the board round in a really tight carve. Makes me want to invest some time in my old race board or at least refurb my prior rather than the soft rocketed board I rode for my 2 days last season.
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That specific video, he's hammering the **** out of a soft board to exaggerate the lesson, hence the huge up-down movements etc.

The "Yawgoons" people were doing the same thing, using soft boards carved hard at slow speeds. I'm more of a speed freak, but I think this is a healthier direction from snowboarding than skate tricks.

If you haven't tried a metal race board, don't, because you'll immediately get why no race has been won on glass for a decade or more.
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You know it makes sense.
What - don't ever ride a metal race board because I wouldn't be able to handle it or it would ruin all subsequent experience of riding on a glass board? Yeah my glass race board is pretty old but then I've only ever hardbooted in ski boots which aren't ideal and not for over 10 years so I'm not exactly a master.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Don't ride one because you'll have to buy it. wink
Which is pretty much the second of your two options.

I've no knowledge of anyone's ability here at all, so I can't be deliberately rude about it, even if I wanted to be, which I can't see the motivation for.

I'm not a huge fan of Prior (their warranty is very poor) or North American boards generally for that matter. I do have one of Ryan's sponsor's boards. They are all in my view engineered for American tastes, which don't match the type of riding I do. They're like Corvettes compared to Porsche.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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So I would have thought a stiffer board, "all mountain" type board would be more appropriate for carving, and softer ones for the park. Is this not the case?

Just curious, I'm not board shopping yet ! Cool
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@robin_mxx, Don't worry about it, a lot of it is just willie wagling. Until you get even to 70% of pro rider standard you won't have the ability to ride a specialised snowboard and by then you'll be good enough to ride anything and get the best out of it. Just go and play/practice and when you want, hire a board for a day or two and see how different it feels . . . if at all at this stage of your skills base. Right now a stiff or metaled plank would feel awful and probably rattle your fillings out before spitting you into a rock. Just RELAX, learn to ride, have fun and find a run you really like and feel comfortable on then push yourself just a wee bit on every hit. Do that for an hour or two (even better with some instruction) each day and you can feel what you're doing rather that where the F am I? or where are my mates.
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What he said.

People learn fastest on a board they can ride well: an "easy" board to ride. You progress by lots of practice, not by battling against your gear.

It's true that stiffer boards are better for carving, but soft boards are easiest for beginners.

"All mountain" is often a euphemism for "beginner", which is a word you'll not see snowboard retailers use much.
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There's nothing wrong with a good skidded turn. You can have a very high-performance skidded turn with loads of grip and it may be more appropriate than a fully-carved turn, e.g. where the terrain is very steep, the amount of space available is limited or the snow is very hard. The movements are much the same as a carved turn and you can get a similar amount of drive / speed out of it.

It's skidding the tail around with no grip that sucks...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
If you don't have some element of skid in your turns then you have no speed control. I'm fairly sure everyone here is able to control their speed, and I think we all understand this.
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t's called 'blending'. Being able to hold the leading edge in a defined or user shaped turn and controlling the amount of edge release with the back foot to check and maintain a safe speed. Most people pick this up pretty much by instinct (or after a lot of pain and cursing) and as @stevomcd mentioned earlier it is a form of pedaling. It is an essential tool . . . as is the 'side-slip' . . .

But NOT the 'I'm crapping mese'n 'cos I've gone too steep and now will BULLDOZE 200m of piste down to the ice crust' side-slip we all know and loath Evil or Very Mad
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robin mxx, as is usual with progressing, you're over thinking most of this. Some sound advice here, which it would be a good idea to read over again, but it basically boils down to this .......

Find a board you enjoy riding, and get as much mountain time as you can. How? Ride as many boards as you can and don't get pigeonholed by someone else's suggestions. If you can, ride with people who are better than you but don't push your riding too far, and if you're lucky some of the sharper riders will give you advice that'll click. Listen to them. By all means get some lessons, but lessons are for guidance and no a guarantee of success.

Always stay as flexible as you can and have a laugh. Far too many 'boarders I see are overly rigid and manically serious. It's not an ongoing exam, it's actually meant to be fun, so stay loose and grin a lot, lol.

Some people try this sh*t for years and never get it, for various reasons. Even for those that do get it, it can take some time, patience is a virtue, but no-one wants to hear that. You'll know when you're doing it right 'cause it will feel right, and if it doesn't it usually isn't.

Most of us turn because we're either trying to look cool, need to unload muscles, or simply can't go as straight as we'd like.

As regards the vid, sorry but if you want to 'carve' you need to point the board more down the fall line, and go from there.

Good luck, if it was that easy everyone would be doing it ...... wink JMO
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

If you don't have some element of skid in your turns then you have no speed control.


Sure you do. You control your speed in a pure carved turn by tightening the radius so you don't spend too much time in/near the fall line and by continuing your turn all the way around and back up the hill to lose speed.

A lot of snowboarder's AREN'T able to control their speed. They do fall-line, short-arc turns and get faster and faster until they are forced to speed-check.
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Thanks for the board advice, @Masque, @philwig, it does ring true: my experience in the fridge and 1st week on snow was on Burton hire-specific beginner boards, while for my 2nd week (EoSB) I had a Nitro hire board which the online reviews refer to as intermediate/advanced.

For the first few days I struggled to stay upright, it felt much harder to twist the board and pedal into a turn, but towards the end of the week I did get used to it and found it to be more stable, and myself going at higher speeds than before. Obviously some of that would be down to just the extra progression of more time on snow. Either way, we'll see what the next hire board is like Very Happy

That's interesting about the skidded turns, @stevomcd, watching people ride it does look like some people's skidded turns are more controlled than others, less stop-start.

Cheers, @BCjohnny, no one needs to tell me twice to go and have fun! Very Happy Probably some of the best riding I've done ( for a limited value of "best") was trying to play tag slalom with friends around the piste markers.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
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@philwig, I read an article about turning uphill to slow down ( McNab) and tried it last time out, it did work for me.. not that I was going that fast to start with Very Happy
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