 Poster: A snowHead
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OK - think on this.
I have just changed the winter tyres on our new Skoda estate. I had a good poke about and suspension check when I swapped the rims over. I was astonished at the amount of rust on the suspension arms and fittings. This happened in one season, three trips to the Alps - A26, over the Jura, into CH, and back. The same happened with our Touran, about two years ago, after 6 years of four trips per year to the Alps, the brake backing plates just collapsed into a pile of rust. Both cars intrinsically are fine - excellent rust proofing on the body etc. I have discussed this with Swiss friends, and they emphasise that although the Swiss are very judicious in their use of salt on the roads; nonetheless, particularly on motorways (and particularly in France) there is still an issue of the corrosion caused by salt application.
So….what of skis?
I am always astonished to see skis such as Lines, SC4s etc naked on the roof racks of cars blatting down to the Trois Vallees and Verbier, in a plume of salt-laden spray. Of course my kids often shout '…look they have their skis on the wrong way around!…' (we are smug gits in our car and always observe the tips-back protocol - it probably makes no difference at all; apart from a minor wind resistance issue - but we like tradition) - and then there's the HUGE dilemma of twin tips….
But the KEY POINT is this:
I was in a ski tech's workshop and we took apart a set of Fischers with the bindings ruined and the core swelling badly around a gouge in the top sheet. The skis were new …. and shot. And the cause? being on the roof of a car in the full face of salt-laden spray, to and fro the Alps. All the metal components were white with corrosion, some of them furry with salt buildup. The gouge in the top sheet had exposed the core, and the moisture ingress was extraordinary, seriously damaging the inner structure of the skis.
This is an extreme case, but I am astonished at the number of high quality skis exposed on roof racks. Maybe these people have enough income to treat them as disposable objects, but I wince at the damage and waste. When we transport skis they go in the car, or on the occasions when we need to take a pile of skis, we wrap the bindings in plastic sheet, gaffered water-tight.
I worry that binding function can be impaired by internal corrosion; and I do wonder if there needs to be a bit more awareness of this issue?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@valais2, I have a similar concern when I see multi-thousand £/€ mountain bikes on roof or tailgate (worse) racks during the winter. As you describe, they are effectively being jet washed with salt spray for potentially hours at a time 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| valais2 wrote: |
| ....I worry that binding function can be impaired by internal corrosion... |
Of course this is the case as you witnessed on the Fischer's
| valais2 wrote: |
| ...but I am astonished at the number of high quality skis exposed on roof racks... |
Why? the price of the ski's has little to do with it, as you rightly say it's a safety issue.
| valais2 wrote: |
| ... we wrap the bindings in plastic sheet, gaffered water-tight... |
Seems to me the best policy
| valais2 wrote: |
| ...and I do wonder if there needs to be a bit more awareness of this issue? |
There's plenty of awareness of the issue (there are other posts on this subject). Many people don't give a toss, I await the postings saying "I've had skis on the roof rack for years with no problem" in much the same way as "my granddad smoked 40 a day and lived to 90", of course in this example it's (probably) highly unlikely you'll have a catastrophic binding failure but it's a risk I don't see worth taking.
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When we needed to replace our last car we bought a van for this reason. Bikes and skis in the back, no damage to either.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@betterinblack, ...apologies....although an avid reader of the site and contributor I hadn't seen the previous posts on the topic...oops
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I guess it depends largely on how long they sat on the roof of the car or more likely how long they were stored afterwards without cleaning the salt off. Maybe just a few days of being coated in salt solution would be enough to trash them?
As for mountain bikes, I've travelled extensively in the UK winter with very expensive mountain bikes on the roof and had zero issues. But then I always clean them thoroughly after each trip. In the winter months they certainly need cleaning anyway after a thrashing in the muddy forests! But I know some people who just chuck them in the garage after a winter weekend trip and then wonder why the gear train and suspension bearings have all seized up the following weekend.
If I was travelling long distance with skis on the roof I would at least wrap the bindings and make sure I cleaned and dried the skis off at the other end. But I don't think I'd worry about it any more than that.
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I carry skis on the roof to and from the alpes a lot and never had a problem, but then they are always in a ski tube or at worse a ski bag.
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| Quote: |
valais2 wrote:
... we wrap the bindings in plastic sheet, gaffered water-tight...
Seems to me the best policy
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roof box? A lot easier and protects the edges.
We do put skis on the roof sometimes but only for 10 minutes at 30 mph. Mainly now we use a skoda ski bag in our skoda estate. It is specially designed to fit with the ski hatch and will take 4 pairs with a bit of care. Does a good job of keeping the damp out of the car (bonus for deicing/demisting in the morning - I find even if you only have skis in the car for 10 minutes they shed a lot of moisture into the car's atmosphere). It's also black and is not really visible to the casual observer.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have both a ski rack and roof box. For local stuff I use the ski rack but when heading to Cairngorm, Glenshee, the Lecht, etc, I use the roofbox.
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I don't have a van, so it's easier to put the skis/bikes inside the hatchback and strap the wife n kids to the roof.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@jedster, …we don't currently use a roof box but we would if we had to haul skis every time. Our huge pile of skis live all over the place in our family base in CH, but we are very fortunate in having such a base and recognise the trials faced by people who have to haul everything all the time. In resort we use the roof rack and put skis indoors overnight when the garage goes below 0 degrees, running the risk of binding damage through expansive freezing. In the car we have learned the hard way re floods of meltwater, and use a load of shallow IKEA plastic trays in which boots fit brilliantly, with all the melt caught in the trays rather than descending into the spare wheel well and soaking the liner. You just hook out the boots, and empty the trays of cruddy melt water onto the drive… We even do this in hire cars, we're that picky. And we always carry a stiff hand-brush in the boot (the kind used in dustpan-and-brushes), which always proves really useful in cleaning everything before it goes on the roof or into the boot.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
As for mountain bikes, I've travelled extensively in the UK winter with very expensive mountain bikes on the roof and had zero issues. But then I always clean them thoroughly after each trip
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Me too but people don't tend to clean skis.
Most ski racks look like they are designed for the skis to go on the roof naked, could that be part of the issue? If my board has to go on the roof rather than inside then it travels in its bag but it is very noisy!
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This is a particular problem with Fischers. it doesn't happen with Salomons.
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You know it makes sense.
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| leggyblonde wrote: |
Me too but people don't tend to clean skis.
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Which I think is the real problem when transporting skis where they may get covered in salt water. It's not so much the short term journey, more the lingering salt remaining on them afterwards that does all the damage. As you say, I bet hardly anyone rinses their skis off with clean water after a long journey on the car roof. Luckily we don't have to transport skis very often as they live in our apartment in resort. But I'm always careful to make sure they are clean and dry during summer storage. If I was regularly transporting skis by car I think I would choose a closed roof box system or at least wrap the bindings up.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Pallet Wrap for long trips works well and is cheap.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I really don't think it's such an issue. My grandfather smoked two cigarettes a week and died at 55.
I also think you are confusing two problems. The delamination of the ski would almost certainly have been due to water ingress, swelling and freezing. Happens with new or old skis, no matter.
Given that bindings are designed to function in a wet environment anyway, I am seriously unconvinced that the infrequent, not huge exposure to salt is as damaging as the design conditions.
That said, my observations are based on skis that are typically on the roof in urban conditions (i.e. not much spray) and for limited periods (20 minutes typically each way). I don't rinse them off when they get put in the garage.
My last skis which are now literally on their last legs have done about 300 days skiing. But that's German build quality for you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's a huge difference between just wet and wet + salt.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, +1, skis simply don't need babying.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| @under a new name, +1, skis simply don't need babying. |
Yeah, that probably explains why most skis I see around in ski racks and ski locker rooms are in such poor shape. I look after my gear, but that's just me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PowderAdict wrote: |
| @valais2, I have a similar concern when I see multi-thousand £/€ mountain bikes on roof or tailgate (worse) racks during the winter. As you describe, they are effectively being jet washed with salt spray for potentially hours at a time |
Some of us RIDE our bike on roads with salt! And our bikes survive just fine.
Yes, washing with clean water is the simplest answer. Skiing the skis is basically cleaning it already. I don't know why people don't rinse their skis after getting road salts on it from a dirty car journey. I typically spray my car, with whatever's on the roof, if the road journey is dirty.
Disclaimer, I don't own a ski rack. My skis travel inside the car. But I've carried bikes and canoes on the roof. They got washed before they're unloaded, because I don't like to get all that dirt/salt/murk on me while I'm unloading it.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| @under a new name, +1, skis simply don't need babying. |
Yeah, that probably explains why most skis I see around in ski racks and ski locker rooms are in such poor shape. I look after my gear, but that's just me. |
What do you mean by poor shape though, and how does that affect real world performance?
Scratches on the bases? Make almost no difference, unless you're racing or they're core shorts
Edges are worn? Make little difference other than real ice or you're racing
Edges are rusty? That'll come off within about 10 turns
Scratches and chips on top sheet? Make no difference at all
What is a bit of road salt really going to do? Sure, may theoretically slightly corrode edges and slow bases, but unless you're driving a long way with exposed skis every week of the season, it's unlikely you'd even be able to notice. If you're driving/skiing that much you'll be getting way more wear and tear simply from using the skis, so will have to replace them well before any salt corrosion problems really become problems. If you're driving once in a blue moon and skiing one week a year, you'll be replacing the skis due to new technology and outdated design way before there's enough damage to need to replace them otherwise.
Skis are pretty damn tough!!
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It is not usually practical to thorough wash and dry skis when arriving in resort, but how much rust would actually develop during a skiing week? I suspect much of the damage occurs when salted and damp skis aren't thoroughly cleaned and dried after a return journey. Perhaps the same as with the car 
Warmth will also have an effect. Skis may rust much quicker in a relatively warm slightly damp UK garage than in a ski resort. I don't know enough chemistry to know whether heated boot rooms (which are great for boots, being largely plastic) are good for salted skis - will the warmth on damp skis accelerate rusting, or inhibit it because of the drying out? (Removing as much snow/ice as possible before putting skis away each night probably helps).
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| @under a new name, +1, skis simply don't need babying. |
Yeah, that probably explains why most skis I see around in ski racks and ski locker rooms are in such poor shape. I look after my gear, but that's just me. |
What do you mean by poor shape though, and how does that affect real world performance?
Scratches on the bases? Make almost no difference, unless you're racing or they're core shorts
Edges are worn? Make little difference other than real ice or you're racing
Edges are rusty? That'll come off within about 10 turns
Scratches and chips on top sheet? Make no difference at all
What is a bit of road salt really going to do? Sure, may theoretically slightly corrode edges and slow bases, but unless you're driving a long way with exposed skis every week of the season, it's unlikely you'd even be able to notice. If you're driving/skiing that much you'll be getting way more wear and tear simply from using the skis, so will have to replace them well before any salt corrosion problems really become problems. If you're driving once in a blue moon and skiing one week a year, you'll be replacing the skis due to new technology and outdated design way before there's enough damage to need to replace them otherwise.
Skis are pretty damn tough!! |
Well I'm no pro racer, but I can carve a clean turn on most surfaces and can most definitely tell the difference between freshly tuned edges and the typically beaten up ones you see in every ski rack. Sure it doesn't matter so much in soft off-piste conditions, but I'd still rather have a decent edge there when I need it, even on a fat ski. As for salt coated rusty bindings, not really my thing whether or not it makes any difference. A bit of fresh surface rust on edges isn't an issue, but it soon becomes one if you leave it for any length of time and they start pitting. But not something I let happen personally. I also don't find skis particularly tough if you don't look after them. They soon deteriorate if you don't keep on top of servicing them or store them in damp conditions. But not everyone cares - including you by the sound of it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@clarky999, ...skis are indeed tough, and I agree with your 'don't mollycoddle them' point. I ski frequently on rock skis with huge gouges in the base, a delaminating tail on one ski, and knackered edges. And it's fine. On boiler plate I prefer my carefully-prepp'd Volkls, though...
ANYWAY.....the key issue is the return journey. I agree that skis get washed with snow melt when skiing. But it's the pervasive salt spray on the 600 mile drive home which seems to be the killer. And that's where Squirrel is right - and boy how salt solution clings and reacts to metal. I just don't accept the 'mountain bikes are fine in salt'. I have done night rides during the winter, with quite a bot of road work - I was aghast on one of these when THE NEXT MORNING I started cleaning the bike and found the damage which had been done to all the alloy parts. Remember that the best way of wrecking any bike is leaving the seat pin in without lubing it, then letting salt water get in, then letting the electrolytic action be accelerated by a full dose of salt solution. Very, very grim.
The point is that this can all happen very very quickly. Doing a return journey, throwing the skis in the garage. Think you will clean them in a few days but forgetting, then doing it a few weeks later - that's more than enough time for a lot of nasty corrosion to the metal components in the bindings. Bases? Not really a problem. Edges? As you say, will swiftly de-rust. But inner metal components in the bindings are a different kettle of fish...
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| valais2 wrote: |
| @clarky999 I have done night rides during the winter, with quite a bot of road work - I was aghast on one of these when THE NEXT MORNING I started cleaning the bike and found the damage which had been done to all the alloy parts. . |
That's where you went wrong. You have to clean them IMMEDIATELY you unload, not the next morning. But I rarely travel more than a couple of hours to ride off-road and so that's the longest they ever get exposed to winter salt-spray and only then if it's actually wet on the road. It's never been a problem for me, but I'm very aware of the effect it can have on alloy parts. I've actually become much more of a fair weather rider in recent years simply because I can't be arsed with all the cleaning involved!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You seem to spend a lot of time worrying about some unimportant stuff.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
| You seem to spend a lot of time worrying about some unimportant stuff. |
Ain't nothing more important (without a pulse) than my skis and mountain bikes.
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@clarky999, @under a new name, @davidof, Exactly. Core shots are a different matter (and the cause of the OPs deterioration for sure) and must be taken seriously; but road salt etc. no way. All the workings of the bindings are packed with grease and sealed, and the rest is mostly plastic/composite these days.
@valais2, Absolutely tips backwards, avoids tip chatter at speed. Twin-tips are only for people not old enough to drive, so no dilemma! 
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You know it makes sense.
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@shep, errr, do you not "possess" a pair of twin tipped rocket noodles?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@shep, ....just so the image is clear, the Fischers described in the original post were not mine, I was in the workshop getting a problem sorted, and the technician said '..take a look at these...!'
I'm not so sanguine about 'packed with grease and sealed' - the alloy adjustment screws had corroded and were jammed up in thier plastic housings - you could turn them only with major brute force - the wedges at the ends of the springs were a mess of salts and pitted, and the DIN indicators we no longer visible in the plastic windows. Pretty messed up for new bindings, I reckon.
Re chatter at speed, the best example we saw last year was a car with a weird rack on the tailgate which held the skis vertical at the rear of the 4x4, sticking right up in the air above the roofline. The ski were oscillating like crazy, but boy he kept going....
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Poster: A snowHead
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Re Bikes, I don't doubt it is a good idea to hose them down after they've been in salt spray but I commute by bike all year round and it is not unknown for me to go a couple of months between cleaning the bike through the winter. I know I know it IS slovenly but frankly at 9PM on a dark winter's night the last thing I want to do is wash the bike and weekends seem to get busy.
Now I do optimise my bike for commuting (guards, rack, dyno lighting, disc brakes, hub gear) so it may be more resilient than many but it's currently 4 years old with about 16000 miles on it and apart from the usual chain/sprocket/chain ring/pads has only had one bit of kit needing replacing - rear disc caliper. That despite it being upto the bottom bracket in flood water on a couple of occasions. Now that may well have been as a result of salt spray and lax cleaning but it's hardly a big argument for more frequent effort.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes I was the same with road bikes. Rarely cleaned mine and it ran reasonably well for years, summer and winter. Mountain bikes are totally different though if used extensively off-road in wet muddy conditions. They take a massive beating, especially the drivetrain and suspension bearings and any road salt just accelerates the already high wear and tear. Anyway I wouldn't leave a £4.5K mtb covered in salt spray and mud for any longer than necessary after a long winter ride. Overnight is definitely not acceptable and one of the reasons I skip the big winter rides these days. In the summer I just keep the chain clean and lubed and let the mud dry and flake off the frame/wheels by itself. I actually find cleaning with water does more harm than good over the summer.
Worth mentioning that skis are a breeze to look after compared to mountain bikes!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
one of the reasons I skip the big winter rides these days
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wimp I have a singlespeed hardtail for night ride winter duties. Often gets put back muddy at the end of a late one and then I brush the mud off the chain and lube it at the start of the next ride. Anything that gets raced on (including CX bikes on roof) gets cleaned the minute I get home.
With regard the whole "skis are/aren't tough" debate, I guess its the same as most things; look after them and they will last longer but equally aren't made of sugar...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| leggyblonde wrote: |
wimp I have a singlespeed hardtail for night ride winter duties. |
LOL. I didn't used to mind winter rides on the full susser - used to go out regardless of weather, but now have 2 small kids that put an end to all the spare time I used to have to prep bikes. I'm not hardcore enough to do singlespeeds but it's definitely the answer for the harshest winter weather and minimal maintenance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
With regard the whole "skis are/aren't tough" debate, I guess its the same as most things; look after them and they will last longer but equally aren't made of sugar...
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Most have my skis have been retired before they were shot. The two pairs that have been worn out dies because a pair of K2s just went floppy (after one full season being used 6 days a week) and blew an edge out on a pair of Atomics hitting a rock. I haven't treated them with a lot of love but I don't think any amount attention would have prevented those failures.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Anyway I wouldn't leave a £4.5K mtb covered in salt spray and mud for any longer than necessary after a long winter ride. Overnight is definitely not acceptable and one of the reasons I skip the big winter rides these days.
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I don't go nuts on equipment care. I hose them down when I got home, regardless how late. That doesn't take long.
I sometimes leave the chain lube till the next day.
My method isn't ideal but that hasn't caused any problem that I can tell.
One difference between bike and skis are, we expect bike components to have a finite lifespan that's shorter than the bike's. So, when chains stretch, cassette worn, bearing binds, we replace them. We don't tend to replace the binding of skis after a few years.
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| Quote: |
We don't tend to replace the binding of skis after a few years.
Wed 20 Apr, 16
15:31
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indeed - my bindings have tended to outlive skis
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| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
We don't tend to replace the binding of skis after a few years.
Wed 20 Apr, 16
15:31
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indeed - my bindings have tended to outlive skis |
My old bindings may still have life left after the skis got retired. But my new skis kept on growing on waist the old bindings don't fit!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
kept on growing on waist the old bindings don't fit!
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that can happen with trousers, too....
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| jedster wrote: |
Re Bikes, I don't doubt it is a good idea to hose them down after they've been in salt spray but I commute by bike all year round and it is not unknown for me to go a couple of months between cleaning the bike through the winter. I know I know it IS slovenly but frankly at 9PM on a dark winter's night the last thing I want to do is wash the bike and weekends seem to get busy.
Now I do optimise my bike for commuting (guards, rack, dyno lighting, disc brakes, hub gear) so it may be more resilient than many but it's currently 4 years old with about 16000 miles on it and apart from the usual chain/sprocket/chain ring/pads has only had one bit of kit needing replacing - rear disc caliper. That despite it being upto the bottom bracket in flood water on a couple of occasions. Now that may well have been as a result of salt spray and lax cleaning but it's hardly a big argument for more frequent effort. |
Quite. I commute daily in all weather on my MTB and daily cleaning in winter isn't practical. TBH, I rarely even bother to clean it after muddy off-road excursions and generally just dob some extra lube into the accumulated filth. I figure that changing the chain and cassette every 9-12 months is a price worth paying if it saves me endless hours with a hosepipe, brush and degreaser.
After many thousands of road miles and hundreds of off-road trips in 5 years of consistent mistreatment, all of the exposed alloy parts show superficial evidence of corrosion but everything still works. The only concession I've made to allow my laziness to continue unabated is to recable the rear mech with a full-length sheath so that the accumulated crap doesn't interfere with my gear-changing pleasure.
If laziness gets me more than 5 years' full-on use from a bike, I really can't see why I'd want to work like a dog to extend things further. My bike's hardly high end (c £1K hardtail), but I'd treat a £5k bike in exactly the same way. If an expensive bike needed regularly washing, I'd prefer to make do with a cheaper bike and spend the extra time with the dog, kids, wife and fireplace.
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FAQ
