 Poster: A snowHead
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Mountain addiction wrote: |
| "there isn't enough hot water because a family of 10 needs 2 showers each a day" |
- I'm sorry, this one is nonsense. If your hot water system cannot supply enough water for 10 guests each to have a shower then it's not up to the job. If it cannot reheat the water for one or all to have another shower a full eight hours later, then it's not up to the job. You seem to blame it on the fact that
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| 'sometimes people don't realise how much they are infact using' |
and yet I presume they seem to manage OK at home. If the hotwater system is going to struggle to supply 10 showers in quick succession, and I do understand that this is often a problem, then just explain to your guests what the problem is and why it can't be fixed. Most people are understanding, but for you to blame it on people having too many showers, spending too long in the shower and not being aware of how much water they are using seems bizarre.
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You seem to think that there should be the same (quantity) of facilities in a mountain environment as in a metropolis? Is this a symptom of skiing - and mountain environments - having become sanitised? Don't get me wrong - I like my conveniences of having a lift up the mountain. But never once do I forget that it's a more remote and wilder environment than towns. You don't travel just to find things the same as they are at home, oder? After all, unlimited hot and cold running water is not only a relatively new luxury anywhere (remember our grandparents having outside toilets and a tin bath?), but in many places still very difficult to achieve - I can think of several places in the Med where water can still be a scarcity. I find it shocking that such ready availability of water has so quickly become absolutely taken for granted. Or maybe it's the skanky sailor in me that's used respecting the constraints imposed by mother nature and to subsisting for a couple of weeks just on the 400 l (if I'm lucky) of water that I can carry with us on the boat.
Having said that, I agree that it's up to the provider to manage expectations
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@eng_ch,
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After all, unlimited hot and cold running water is not only a relatively new luxury anywhere (remember our grandparents having outside toilets and a tin bath?)
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My grandparents had running hot and cold water, growing up. They were far from rich, but lived in an Euro city in a block of flats with central heating and elevator. The countryside was different.
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You seem to think that there should be the same (quantity) of facilities in a mountain environment as in a metropolis? Is this a symptom of skiing - and mountain environments - having become sanitised?
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Maybe so, but skiing is not mountain climbing. It is usually marketed as upmarket and pampered. It seems, to me at least, odd to use spas, saunas and swimming pools to market ski towns and hotels and then wonder that clients expect the same facilities like home.
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that's used respecting the constraints imposed by mother nature and to subsisting for a couple of weeks just on the 400 l (if I'm lucky) of water that I can carry with us on the boat.
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Do you have a sauna and a hot tub on your boat?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@eng_ch, I wasn't really commenting upon the usage of water as a rawe material, but on the supply of hot water in a chalet.
Has skiing become 'sanitised? I'm not sure it is that much more sanitised than it has been for decades. The alpine hotels of the 1950's where my parents stayed, and probably for decades before, have always promoted the idea that they provide the sort of amenities you would expect from any hotel elsehwere. I'm not sure that I buy into the idea that because a town or village happens to be in the Alps then something like hot/cold running water is a luxury for which we should be particularly grateful. Yes, I understand that some services might be affected by avalanche, freezing temperatures etc. but skiing and ski resorts haven't been wildrness for a very long time.
I'm not suggesting hot water should be infinite but I think that a chalet 'for 10' should be able to supply enough hot water for 10 people to have a reasonable shower over the space of about two hours. If some people have very long showers there won't be enough for everyone. I think most people accept that. What is harder to accept is the idea that 'you had a shower this morning, so you can't have one tonight'
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We now have our hot water in the chalet set to be on continuously to try to overcome shortages of hot water. We have two large water tanks/heaters (not done with a boiler) and sleep 8, more than that if we have family staying. We do have 3 baths and the only shower is one over one of the baths - that was done for us as we like to relax in a bath after skiing. I am fairly frugal when I fill the bath particularly when I know we have lots of people staying, just seems to make sense. When we have run out is when we have all the grandchildren staying and they seem to have a bath each, which for little bodies seems a bit excessive to me, in rapid succession.
Until a few years ago Les Gets did suffer from a water shortage and we had friends one year who stayed in a chalet on the Chavannes side of the village and the water seemed to be off quite a chunk of the time they were there. They drank beer and used copious amounts of deodorant and brought in buckets of snow for the loos.
In our first few years in the chalet we also suffered from the electricity going off at around 8 pm when the underfloor used to kick in, lots of hairdryers going and the oven on. Simply had to turn something off but we found that annoying so we bought in to a higher rate with EDF and its been fine since. Having said that no-one that has rented our chalet ever complained in the early days about the lights going out, I think the French are used to it, or said anything about a shortage of hot water.
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IIRC, the Mark Warner chalet above the Pub in Verbier always ran out of hot water at around 5pm (well it did in the late 1980s). The answer, of course, was to remain in the Pub for an extra hour or two (and then maybe do a bit of hot bathing a la hot bunking).
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 18-04-16 13:36; edited 2 times in total
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This is swiftly turning into a Monty Python sketch...or a Fawtly Towers sketch (depends how much hot water has been used to rinse out the teapot).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@flangesax, That's what I was thinking, but then my imagination shifted from the Three Yorkshiremen to the 'argument sketch' and an image of the moment when a hapless punter knocks crosses the red line painted across the floor of Mountain Addict's kitchen entrance and asks "Excuse me, is this the right room for some water to rinse the teapot"
[Edited as previous version was a touch confrontational  ]
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| You seem to think that there should be the same (quantity) of facilities in a mountain environment as in a metropolis? |
No sale on that argument. A half-decent hotel in that "mountain environment" can be expected to provide hot water on demand. So would a self-catered apartment. So this is nothing to do with "mountain environment", it's just about adequate plumbing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
I don't give a poo-poo what the operating costs are of a chalet. I expect the chalet operators to have priced the holiday accordingly, so that you can provide me with the service you have advertised at the appropriate profit margin to keep oyu in business. Not my fault if your business model is .
Everyone in a chalet (or a hotel or an apartment) wants to have a hot shower after skiing. I would be seriously unhappy to stay in a chalet where that wasn't possible.
Stayed in one chalet where the sauna didn't work because it would cut out the fuse to the oven. Unfortunately I can't be as 'jolly hockey sticks' as Pam W and tell you about what blooming marvellous fun I had crawling around in the basement. That was really annoying because the chalet had been advertised as having a sauna and had been selected over a different chalet on that basis.
People bothering the chef? Make the kitchen out of bounds like an increasing number of TOs have done. |
Pricing a chalet is done taking all in to account, but some people feel it is their right to have it cheaper than advertised, and if it is a poor season/low week/not many enquiries you quickly find you need that booking - THAT is a profit eater if everyone does it. And I frequently had email enquiries where people say 'what is your best price for x dates?', yes, I can give a small discount. There is ALWAYS another chalet that will do it for cheaper... which means market competition (read:over saturated market) ultimately decides how much you're worth... Another facet as to why we jacked it in... just too many operators.
I refer to my previous analogy, you don't load your shopping in to your trolley at the supermarket get to the till and then say 'What's your best price', take it or leave it. But in the Chalet game a lot of people expect to be able to haggle and you just have to suck it up otherwise they'll go elsewhere.
On another note, it is fair to say that Chalet companies who are operating and posting on this thread may not give you such honest and up front advice/information/true experiences, remember, they are still operating and probably won't want to been as having had enough so will tell you how truly wonderful it is... they wouldn't want to tarnish a reputation of tolerance and smiley faces... truth is, everyone has a snapping point.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think i'll finally bite...
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but some people feel it is their right to have it cheaper than advertised
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Which you have to account for in your pricing structure.
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poor season/low week/not many enquiries
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2 thirds of this are your responsibility when marketing. 'Poor season' reasons can also be helped by ensuring you have regular guests that like to come back or to offer early (pre-season) booking incentives.
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There is ALWAYS another chalet that will do it for cheaper... which means market competition (read:over saturated market) ultimately decides how much you're worth... Another facet as to why we jacked it in... just too many operators.
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There probably is... but not offering what you offer!... Not including all of the value added things that you choose to market and promote, etc.. etc..
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On another note, it is fair to say that Chalet companies who are operating and posting on this thread may not give you such honest and up front advice/information/true experiences, remember, they are still operating and probably won't want to been as having had enough so will tell you how truly wonderful it is... they wouldn't want to tarnish a reputation of tolerance and smiley faces... truth is, everyone has a snapping point.
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Bollox.
It reads to me that you went in with rose tinted glasses and were bitten on the behind!
I agree that everyone has a snapping point (I'm not a teacher in a UK school anymore!) but I can not find a single decent argument in your venting posts. It seems that you had the bad batch of years of terrible 'punters' all out to annoy you and prevent you from living a decent life.
I also question how well managed everything was.
When you are a private owner you are responsible for fixing every one of your gripes. It seems to me that this is where you failed which created all of this frustration and anger.
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You know it makes sense.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@flangesax, That's what I was thinking, but then my imagination shifted from the Three Yorkshiremen to the 'argument sketch' and an image of the moment when a hapless punter knocks crosses the red line painted across the floor of Mountain Addict's kitchen entrance and asks "Excuse me, is this the right room for some water to rinse the teapot"
[Edited as previous version was a touch confrontational ] |
The answer, is no, because i'm cooking your bleeting breakfast, and seeing as you've just ignored me and pushed past me without telling me you were behind me you've now knocked the pan of scrambled eggs all over the floor.
but, if you'd like the teapot washing out, just ask me and I will do it for you when I have a moment and I will bring it to the table for you.
Take your pick on either scenario, but the choice is yours and I won't be held responsible for any accident that happened due to you thinking it was ok for you to push past the chef.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Im running a chalet business, and I too can sympathise with all the comments clients make. But having no hot water for example is just something that just as likely happens at home as on holiday. If people feel the right to have hot water 24/7 then there is a little un realism about there expectations. I have two baths in the house, one with a Jacuzzi. If they are both being filled at the same time, the other shower will probably be cold. But hey ho that`s life. It wont take too long to re heat. A little explanation at the start of the week goes a long way.
Another gripe is the wifi being slow. Well yes it will be if all 8 of you are on line streaming videos/games etc. Things that again they wont all be doing at the same time at home. A little understanding and an explanation goes along way.
Whether its financially viable to run, then that's really depending on the individual circumstance re outgoings etc. A friend of mine will keep telling you if you ask him " are you making a good living?" He`ll always respond with the same answer, Im still here, got a smile on my face. Ive made more doing other things, but what price on the quality of life. That says it all really. Financially probably better off doing something else, but the quality of environment and living cant be calculated in pounds shillings and pence.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| flangesax wrote: |
I think i'll finally bite...
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but some people feel it is their right to have it cheaper than advertised
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Which you have to account for in your pricing structure.
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poor season/low week/not many enquiries
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2 thirds of this are your responsibility when marketing. 'Poor season' reasons can also be helped by ensuring you have regular guests that like to come back or to offer early (pre-season) booking incentives.
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There is ALWAYS another chalet that will do it for cheaper... which means market competition (read:over saturated market) ultimately decides how much you're worth... Another facet as to why we jacked it in... just too many operators.
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There probably is... but not offering what you offer!... Not including all of the value added things that you choose to market and promote, etc.. etc..
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On another note, it is fair to say that Chalet companies who are operating and posting on this thread may not give you such honest and up front advice/information/true experiences, remember, they are still operating and probably won't want to been as having had enough so will tell you how truly wonderful it is... they wouldn't want to tarnish a reputation of tolerance and smiley faces... truth is, everyone has a snapping point.
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Bollox.
It reads to me that you went in with rose tinted glasses and were bitten on the behind!
I agree that everyone has a snapping point (I'm not a teacher in a UK school anymore!) but I can not find a single decent argument in your venting posts. It seems that you had the bad batch of years of terrible 'punters' all out to annoy you and prevent you from living a decent life.
I also question how well managed everything was.
When you are a private owner you are responsible for fixing every one of your gripes. It seems to me that this is where you failed which created all of this frustration and anger. |
You don't really seem to get market over saturation do you... there are such minor difference between mid range chalets that it really all becomes a bit of a blur - and some of those chalets are operated by people without a/very small mortgages and can drop their price by a lot more than I could, so couldn't compete reasonabley at that price - hence why we stopped operating, if anything, i spotted the competition could do this and cut my losses before it went too far, a sensible point to raise for the OP, seeing as he's talking about starting up a Chalet company
Someone will always offer cheaper - take a look and the ChaletsDirect solutions room.
And no, As i've said before I met some wonderful people whislt operating the Chalet, and I really enjoyed hosting them, cooking for them, getting to know them. But it does only take a few bad apples to spoil it - and yes, my snapping point was when I was cornered and threatened in the chalet by a drunk thug... tell me why that is accpetable behaviour. Yes, it makes me slightly angry that people think it is acceptable to behave like this - why wouldn't it.
But to say I entered with Rose tinted glasses is very wrong. I did a couple of seasons as a chalet chef and host, then moved in to the business, I knew what I was getting in to and don't regret that decision - the only thing I regret is not being rich enough to buy a chalet outright, maybe things would have been different. but nevertheless, it is a point the OP should consider.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| And the hot water thing seems to have been taken slightly out of context by a few people - some people do use too much |
How much is too much? Are we still in the war? "Save water - shower with a friend!"
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| although we had plenty in supply |
Plenty! Oh good!
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| it will eventuallly run out |
Definition of "plenty" is
(a) more than adequate?
(b) less than adequate?
Sorry but as dogwatch said
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| this is nothing to do with "mountain environment", it's just about adequate plumbing. |
And frankly, we didn't have mobile phones in the old days, either. Now, if the wifi is a bit slow it's more of a source of aggro than anything else  .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Mountain Addiction, I think this last post is a lot more helpful than the previous.
I have a concern that you are tainting a consumer's point of view in regards with the absolute hatred an operator has for their clients!
I do understand market saturation. I also understand that this is something that needs to be considered and managed appropriately. Maybe going as far as understanding that your lowest price is not low enough due to the loan you have taken out on the property and the business' running costs.
This was in your control and a decision that you made.
I also worry that you or your chef really can't possibly allow for the rinsing of a tea pot during the service of an obviously very complicated breakfast.
I must be the lucky one in all this. 10 years on and taking bookings for next season with the very occasional smile on my face!
But... back to the OP... it was previously mentioned about summer... If you can get summer sorted then you are laughing!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| 5 hours a day EVERY DAY is unreasonable |
Why?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
5 hours a day EVERY DAY is unreasonable |
Ah, you've resorted to CAPITAL LETTERS. I win! 
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| flangesax wrote: |
@Mountain Addiction, I think this last post is a lot more helpful than the previous.
I have a concern that you are tainting a consumer's point of view in regards with the absolute hatred an operator has for their clients!
I do understand market saturation. I also understand that this is something that needs to be considered and managed appropriately. Maybe going as far as understanding that your lowest price is not low enough due to the loan you have taken out on the property and the business' running costs.
This was in your control and a decision that you made.
I also worry that you or your chef really can't possibly allow for the rinsing of a tea pot during the service of an obviously very complicated breakfast.
I must be the lucky one in all this. 10 years on and taking bookings for next season with the very occasional smile on my face!
But... back to the OP... it was previously mentioned about summer... If you can get summer sorted then you are laughing! |
not everyone is bad, but the bad people stand out - that is merely the truth in every industry. And I don't hate clients, i enjoyed lots of aspects of my job - but it helps when people are nice.
And that financial burden is even more burdensome when things that are outside of your control are against you, like poor snow... you can factor the cost in to all your calculations, but when the market force is against you and that is compounded by a poor season/poor start to the season the impact is magnified. And no matter how well you manage your finances sometimes you just can't compete with Mortgage free people that can drop the price so far, repeatedly. Good management only gets you so far, market forces & weather will be the ultimate decider, the same in any industry. Why do you think Farming is falling through the floor at the moment - there's an over supply in the market and those with small/none exsistant financial commitments always come out on top, no matter how well the others manage their business/finance.
I've made my point about it several times, if you refuse to accept that sometimes people PUSH THE CHEF to get past, then fine, if you think that is acceptable, then fine. But do not tell me I'm wrong to be a little annoyed about being pushed (more than once), and a little annoyed is all I was, it is the fact i repeatedly have to re-iterate the situation that I find more annoying. Personally I think it unacceptable to push any one, let alone the chef who is in the middle of cooking you breakfast. FYI there are other sinks
Summer is the most difficult to crack, but in saying that, working the summers was fantastic - people are more relaxed. I loved it. Far more than winter. And it has shown me what i really want to do so am moving in to that.
There is harsher competition in the Summer because the market is a lot smaller (but growing) but there are a huge amount of year round chalet operators so the market is still difficult.
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it's not 5 hours a day. it's 2 quick showers per resident per day.
a heating system needs to be specced in line with the number of occupants that are likely to be resident (including owner-occupiers and chalet staff if living in)
No problem with house rules and reminders though. Every chalet I've stayed in will have some kind of rules (no shoes, shut the boot/bike room, no glass glasses in or around hot tub, etc.)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| andy wrote: |
it's not 5 hours a day. it's 2 quick showers per resident per day.
a heating system needs to be specced in line with the number of occupants that are likely to be resident (including owner-occupiers and chalet staff if living in)
No problem with house rules and reminders though. Every chalet I've stayed in will have some kind of rules (no shoes, shut the boot/bike room, no glass glasses in or around hot tub, etc.) |
No, what i'm talking about was 2 x 15 min showers per person per day.
I agree, 2 quick showers a day if you really want, but not 2 x 15 mins each everyday....  There was always enough for 10 people to was perfectly well, but if someone doesn't have an excess-o-meter you quickly find you will eventually (EVENTUALLY - that word is key) run out.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 18-04-16 15:39; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| 5 hours a day EVERY DAY is unreasonable |
Why? |
REALLY! i have to explain this... oh dear!!
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| 2 x 15 min showers per person per day. |
CCTV?
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You know it makes sense.
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| maggi wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| 2 x 15 min showers per person per day. |
CCTV? |
HAHA, you can hear the water running. and they told me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| flangesax wrote: |
I have a concern that you are tainting a consumer's point of view in regards with the absolute hatred an operator has for their clients! |
I think the point is in bold below:
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| it is fair to say that Chalet companies who are operating and posting on this thread may not give you such honest and up front advice/information/true experiences, remember, they are still operating |
That's right. We are still operating... and have been operating longer than you... because we enjoy it!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| miranda wrote: |
| flangesax wrote: |
I have a concern that you are tainting a consumer's point of view in regards with the absolute hatred an operator has for their clients! |
I think the point is in bold below:
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| it is fair to say that Chalet companies who are operating and posting on this thread may not give you such honest and up front advice/information/true experiences, remember, they are still operating |
That's right. We are still operating... and have been operating longer than you... because we enjoy it! |
well... ner ner ner ner ner... 
As i say, there were several reasons we gave up, some are very personal (health related, family reated etc), some were industry related as stated. But we made the decision based majoratively on our personal situations, just industry re-inforced it
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| dogwatch wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| 5 hours a day EVERY DAY is unreasonable |
Why? |
REALLY! i have to explain this... oh dear!! |
Yes. Go on. Explain why paying guests wanting two showers a day is such an appalling imposition.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Mountain Addiction, what have you and Mr MA been doing this season? Was it better? You say you have now worked out what you'll be doing in the future... do you mind sharing? As I said before - I do think this is useful for the OP.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| dogwatch wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| 5 hours a day EVERY DAY is unreasonable |
Why? |
REALLY! i have to explain this... oh dear!! |
Yes. Go on. Explain why paying guests wanting two showers a day is such an appalling imposition. |
After 7 minutes you are going to be clean, after 10 mins you are very clean, at 15 mins I'm pretty sure a doctor could perform surgery using your body as a table.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| miranda wrote: |
| @Mountain Addiction, what have you and Mr MA been doing this season? Was it better? You say you have now worked out what you'll be doing in the future... do you mind sharing? As I said before - I do think this is useful for the OP. |
It is my passion, I love painting and have a double a level in art. I want to paint again, I miss it. Sitting outside in beautiful weather with beautiful views and the sweet smell of flowers all around... just lovely.
I'd like to do something extra and I know what that is, but I'll have to get qualified which is at least 2 years.
Mr MA has been driving - just driving - working for some one else.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Mountain Addiction, genuinely wishing you good luck - will you be staying in the Alps?
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| After 7 minutes you are going to be clean, after 10 mins you are very clean, at 15 mins I'm pretty sure a doctor could perform surgery using your body as a table. |
Some people like the sensation of standing under a shower. You are not their dad and it isn't up to you to say how long they may enjoy their shower.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| After 7 minutes you are going to be clean, after 10 mins you are very clean, at 15 mins I'm pretty sure a doctor could perform surgery using your body as a table. |
Some people like the sensation of standing under a shower. You are not their dad and it isn't up to you to say how long they may enjoy their shower. |
Yep, but if they use all the hot water because 'they like standing under the shower' and they will do it, even though they know they are wasting water then that's not my fault. don't waste the water and you'll have plenty for everyone to get clean twice a day... up to you really
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OP. From the looks of it, my advice would be to buy/rent a chalet and convert all available space into showers. Don't worry about bedrooms, you just need showers, lots of them, and be sure to run your water system via the local steel furnace to ensure plenty of hot water. As a USP, you could ship in industrial quantities of shower gel by the oil drum.
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FAQ
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