 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi everyone,
First post from me, only recently discovered this forum. I'm a keen skier, and having had my first ski holiday since 2013 last February, am immediately thinking about the next one!
Anyway, I usually go skiing with my brother, our better halves, and whichever friends fancy coming along. My brother and I both like to ski quite a lot (i.e. opening to closing every day) and since we can only really afford one week a year, we pick a big resort so as to get plenty of variety and get the most enjoyment out of our holiday. This year we went to Tignes and enjoyed the Espace Killy, and in past years have gone to Val Thorens, Alpe d'Huez, La Plagne (with a couple of excursions to Les Arcs). My querry is pretty simple: have I missed any other large resorts in the Alps? (or anywhere else which could be easily accessed from the UK)
We've pretty much settled on VT for next year in any case, but would be keen to get fellow ski-buffs views.
We're both pretty good skiers, will ski all red runs comfortably (and quite fast if there aren't too many other people around  ), as well as most blacks. We will get down any black (or any that we've encountered so far) but if it's steep with large/icy moguls we might not ski it particularly well.
I looked at Portes du Soleil, but from the map it looks like it doesn't get very high and there aren't many long descents you can do, so don't think I'd enjoy that as much. One I would like to look at in the future would be the Cervinia-Zermatt area. Any others?
Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Sela Ronda in the Dolomite's is massive, pick a resort and enjoy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@mad for chelsea, Welcome to SnowHeads
Like many British skiers, you seem to have concentrated on France. In the mainstream market you still have Switzerland, Austria and Italy to explore, so plenty more to go at yet. In Switzerland you have Zermatt, Verbier, Jungfrau Region, St Moritz, Davos / Klosters as well as many other smaller areas. Others will chip-in regarding Austria and Italy I'm sure.
Spread your wings a bit. All these places are easy to reach from the UK and provide something a little different to the French mega-areas.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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+1 for the Sella Ronda
Don't write off the Portes du Soleil quite so easily. There is loads of great skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@mad for chelsea, welcome to snowheads.
It all depends how you define "Big Resorts", if km of piste then;
In France;
Les Deux Alpes - 203km
Alpe d'huez - 250km
Serre Chevalier - 250km
Grand Massif (Les Carroz, Flaine, Morillon, Samoens, Sixt) -265km
Espace Killy (Tignes, Val d'Isere) - 300km
Megeve - 325km (sounds odd)
Milky Way - 400km
Paradiski (La Plagne & Les Arc) - 425km
Trois Valleys (Courchevel, La Tania, Meribel, Val Thorens) - 600km
Portes du SOleil (Avoriaz, Chatel, Morzine, Les Gets) - 650km
The as others have said Austria and Switzerland have some large resorts too!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Arlberg (St Anton, Lech etc), SkiWelt (Westendorf, Söll, can include Kitzbühel), Ski Amade, Saalbach-Fieberbrunn, Ischgl/Samnaun, Serfaus/Fiss/Ladis...
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Arlberg from next season should be epic. They are linking the Lech/Zurs/Warth section, previously only accessed mainly by bus from ST Anton (yes I know about coming off the back of the Valluga, but that excludes most average skiers), with Stuben, so it will be possible to do a complete circuit. In fact they are calling it the Epic Ski route. The figures quoted by most of the resorts listed by Marcellus are greatly inflated. See:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/news/Revealed-the-ski-resorts-that-exaggerate-piste-lengths/
The welcome, the atmosphere, the people, the apres ski, in fact almost every thing about Austria is way more welcoming than anywhere in France.
Give France a miss for once and try a country where the locals welcome visitors.
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Thanks for the responses.
I guess we've mostly focussed on France so far because I'm actually French and lived in France until last July when I moved to Glasgow. From Paris, it seems easier to get the TGV to Bourg-St-Maurice or Mouttiers and a short bus transfer to the resort than getting across to Italy/Switzerland (though this may be a pre-conception) and certainly Austria. It's also quite a bit cheaper to travel by train than it is to fly if you book train tickets in advance (airport transfers tend to be expensive compared to transfers from train stations). Speaking the language in the resorts might also have been a consideration, though I suspect English is spoken in most nowadays (my German is patchy, my Italian non existent except for opera lyrics, unlikely to be helpful in such situations ).
But you're right in that now living further away means we have to fly anyway, so venturing further afield becomes a more attractive idea.
@marcellus I don't think "Big resorts" is only about the km of piste, though that would be a main consideration. I mentioned that I like the idea of long descents, which I'm not sure are offered by PdS. Ease of getting around, finding ski-in/ski-out accomodation, are also considerations, as is snow guarantee (hence a preference for higher resorts). Of course it's hard getting a feel for all this just looking at ski maps and looking up on internet, hence the post here.
Genuine question re prices: how do they compare in other countries to France? We go with self-catered accomodation (usually pretty basic as we're there for the skiing! needs to be next to the pistes though) but do stop on the mountain for lunch. Tignes for instance is fine, but Val D'Isere prices I would have found a bit steep. I would imagine Switzerland to be on the expensive side, Italy and Austria less so...
Also, crowds? Due to my brother failing at life and becoming a teacher  we seem to be stuck having to go during UK half-term in the near future (until we get kids of our own and possibly go our separate ways). Tignes was fine this year, we never really queued much and while some pistes could be busy coming to the end of the day, if you got off early in the morning things were fine. Then again, Paris weren't on holiday at the same time (other parts of France were) so that may have helped...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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To give you some idea of Swiss prices, here's the menu from my favourite lunch stop. The prices are typical for the area.
http://www.eigernordwand.eu/images/files/dokumente/speisekarte.pdf
Self catering accommodation in our village starts at about CHF700 for a week for an apartment for 2. A 6 day adult ski pass is CHF291 for the whole Jungfrau region.
As long as you can get up in the morning, we don't have any problems with queues even at half term.
Edited to add: You only need to speak English here. Knowledge of German is completely unnecessary 😀🇨🇭
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 6-04-16 15:23; edited 1 time in total
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@mad for chelsea, Welcome - you've arrived at the right place for all things skiing.
For starters a few places in Austria:
Ski Welt (240 km - more if you include Kitzbuhel) and Ski Circus Saalbach-Hinterglemm-Leogang-Fieberbrunn (270 km - to be increased by another 70 km with the addition of a link to Zell am See within the next 4 years) are both about the same size as Espace Killy. Both areas are easily reached from Glasgow, either by direct scheduled flights from Glasgow or Edinburgh to Munich or Salzburg, or by TO charters. Clearly more difficult to reach from Paris, but a 2-hour flight from Glasgow and a 90 minute transfer from Salzburg. Easyjet or Ryanair flights can be found for €50 each way if you know when to look and sign up to email alerts (and alerts posted on Snowheads).
St Anton/Lech/Zurs is a bit smaller, but is a top area for your described level of skiing and accessible from Munich, Zurich or Frederichshafen. Ischgl/Samnaun not bad either, Zillertal (Mayrhofen etc) also worth a look, and then about 30 other smaller areas ...
Use the Search button (top left-hand corner of this page) to find the detailed threads discussing these and many other resorts.
In terms of prices - an apartment sleeping 4 in Saalbach will cost between €500 and €1200 a week, depending on season and location in the village. Lift pass about €230 a week.
Lunch on the mountain ( goulasch soup and a drink / sausage, chips, drink - about €12 ) but you can buy a filled roll in the supermarket for €1.50 and a can of fizz or water for 50c. Food in resort supermarkets is about the same price as in the UK, with no mark-up for 'Mountain location' as most Austrian resorts are regular working towns, not purpose-built ski resorts. Eating out in the evening in the village ranges from pizza or Bobby's Pub meal of the day at under €10 to excellent steaks or local dishes in good restaurants for less than €25 a head.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 6-04-16 15:31; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You could also add Zillertal in Austria and Via Lattea in Italy.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Don't forget Innsbruck is only 90 minutes from Lech too. In fact it is nearer than Frederichshafen and way closer than Munich or Zurich.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
The welcome, the atmosphere, the people, the apres ski, in fact almost every thing about Austria is way more welcoming than anywhere in France.
Give France a miss for once and try a country where the locals welcome visitors.
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I have found the exact opposite to be true, with the exception of Apres Ski where they are, well, different
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mad for chelsea wrote: |
Thanks for the responses.
""I guess we've mostly focussed on France so far because I'm actually French""
""Due to my brother failing at life and becoming a teacher "" |
Are you sure you are French? that was like English humour.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Well my family is a rather eclectic mix of English, Australian, Irish and some German thrown in (and that's just going back to my grandparents), but I was born in France and lived there 27 years, so would consider myself French as much as anything. Oh and I married a (quite wonderful) Chinese woman, who was living in Spain when we met... But yes, in humour I prefer the British version.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Half term prices can be eyewatering especially in France where you will be on holiday at the same time as a chunk of French schools. That's where other destinations outside France may offer more. I'd second the votes for Cervinia/Zermatt (stay in Cervinia as it will be cheaper-Zermatt would be likely to be prohibitively expensive). On piste prices for food in Italy are definitely cheaper, and the food is yummy! (Hate to say it but, better than France!).
Flying to Milan likely to be cheaper at half term too!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Italy are definitely cheaper, and the food is yummy
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@Perty, You're right, I went over to Cervinia from Zermatt a few weeks back and thought the restaurants were fabulous and what value!!
@mad for chelsea, What about the 4 Vallees, masses of skiing over a vast expanse and we speak French here
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@quinton,
As from coming winter, St.Anton-Lech is the largest interconnected ski-resort in Austria.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What piste length will that be, @Langerzug? I always rather fancied Lech but could never afford it, when it came down to making a booking!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Pam w-Try Ski Total. They have 3 hotels in Lech. Elizabeth is best. Montfort beside the beginner slope, but give the Sonneck a miss it's a mile out and a s--hole. For Lech prices are very good
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As someone who has spent the last 20 years skiing EK, 3V and La plagne. And enjoyed every minute. Can I recommend Verbier which I tried this year for the first time and will be back.Yes it is a bit more expensive, but great on and easily reached off piste skiing. Keep an eye open for Inghams deals.
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@Langerzug, Yes, from next winter St Anton-Lech will have 305 km of pistes and the Saalbach Ski Circus will overtake this by 2020 by having around 340 km, but this is all a bit of marketeers' willy waving IMHO. When Saalbach had 230 km, few of the guests I spoke to ever got round to skiing the whole lot in a week. The addition of Fieberbrunn this season has spread the guests out a bit, but again, few guests on a one-week holiday will have had the time or ability to ski the full 270 km. The connection to Zell am See will add even more km, but I don't think it will add more in terms of quality or variety of pistes. My observation is that people rush around the busy but bland boulevard pistes in order to clock up mileage, but miss any number of interesting, quiet and challenging runs just off the main routes.
The marketing folk seem to have become fixated on 'big is best' but do people really choose a resort based on size. As long as there are more than say 150 km of pistes, don't people consider other criteria such as value for money, variety and suitability of pistes, modern lifts / no queues, friendliness and service levels, ease of transfers, quality of ski schools, quality of apres ski, etc?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@quinton,
St.Anton will connect to Kappl in 2019 probably 
But I do agree, I don't need the big kms either. Both St.Anton and Lech never haven been huge on km, but still the most succesfull resorts in Austria. I'm still very much worrying that especially Lech might lose attraction in the coming years because of influx from St.Anton
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| Quote: |
I looked at Portes du Soleil, but from the map it looks like it doesn't get very high and there aren't many long descents you can do, so don't think I'd enjoy that as much
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@mad for chelsea, PdS is a great ski area. There will be plenty to keep you and your brother entertained and engaged.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Had 3 holidays in the PDS and spent most of 1 season there. Have to say every time the conditions were really poor. Just saying
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
The marketing folk seem to have become fixated on 'big is best' but do people really choose a resort based on size. As long as there are more than say 150 km of pistes, don't people consider other criteria such as value for money, variety and suitability of pistes, modern lifts / no queues, friendliness and service levels, ease of transfers, quality of ski schools, quality of apres ski, etc?
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I'm more in your camp but, yes, there is a slice of the market for whom which total mileage of piste is an important consideration. Some people even say they dislike skiing the same piste twice which I find hard to understand but each to their own.
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| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| Had 3 holidays in the PDS and spent most of 1 season there. Have to say every time the conditions were really poor. Just saying |
Well I've only had 3 trips each of 1 week. Had great conditions each time. Just sayin'
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You know it makes sense.
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Wouldn't write off the PdS either.
6 weeks there. 5 ace, and the one where it did rain over Christmas and New Year, we still managed a full 6 days on white stuff the week after that (and only 1 day of porridge).
In Jan/Feb, I say go low. Make good use of being able to see, with shelter from trees in a whiteout. Save the likes of VT for November+April.
PdS isn't a ski resort for its low-ness. It's a ski resort (or collection of ski villages if you prefer) because it snows there every winter. Same for Austria. Skiing is their national sport for a reason, and that reason isn't marketing from big ski resort corporations.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| Give France a miss for once and try a country where the locals welcome visitors. |
I used to feel that way about France, but my experience in the past few years (Val d'Isere, Ste Foy) has been very, very different.
Even in a huge resort, you can find plenty of small-scale businesses that really care. This year in Val d'Isere, we booked our guide directly and avoided the ski-school factory; took his advice for ski-hire and avoided the Intersport factory; booked a small hotel directly and avoided the package holiday factory; and ate in small, owner managed mountain restaurants to avoid the soulless self-service factories.
It's a perfect combination. Big resort facilities with low-key, friendly, very personal services. What's not to like?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Given that some people are easily "bored" by skiing the same piste a few times there will always be an interest in mileage, but I agree it's one of the least important statistics to me. I think what I most value is quiet pistes and no lift queues, followed by scenery.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The "big 5" ski resorts in Western Europe are Verbier, Zermatt, St Anton, 3 Valleys, and Val d'Isere.
The "big 3" ski resorts in North America are Whistler, Jackson Hole, and Aspen.
The "big 2" ski resorts in Asia are Niseko and Hakuba.
They are the "big 10" must-visit resorts worldwide.
All other resorts worldwide are second-tier and nice-to-visit.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Focusing on the 'long descents' bit of your post, as someone who likes lapping fairly long descents with at least 5-600m of vertical, ideally more - I think you're correct in identifying that the PDS isn't that great for this. It's still a very nice place, but I don't really rate it for long vertical descents.
Places I have enjoyed for this sort of things are:
- Zell am See - 950vm TrassXpress lift - quick, modern lift with a long black through the trees back down
- Saalbach - a fair few lifts which are valley floor to mountain top - for long 800+ vm descents
- Ski Amade / Flachau - Flying Mozart and Rote 8er again offer about 950vm in one go
I reckon you should have a crack at Saalbach, especially if the link to Zell is in place next season.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Both St.Anton and Lech never haven been huge on km, but still the most succesfull resorts in Austria.
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@Langerzug, As a matter of interest, how do you reach that conclusion? The only authoritative point of reference that I know of is Laurent Vanat's International Report on Snow and Mountain Tourism, on page 9 of which is a block graph of the top world ski resorts in order of millions of skier visits. (see http://www.isiaski.org/download/20140517_ISIA_Vuokatti_1b_presentation_vanat.pdf ) La Plagne holds the number 1 position and Saalbach-Hinterglemm-Leogang is number 2. St Anton-St Christoph-Stuben is well down the list, and there are many Austrian resorts that seem to be more popular.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Porte de Soleil or Ischgl, not Arlberg
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
The "big 5" ski resorts in Western Europe are Verbier, Zermatt, St Anton, 3 Valleys, and Val d'Isere.
The "big 3" ski resorts in North America are Whistler, Jackson Hole, and Aspen.
The "big 2" ski resorts in Asia are Niseko and Hakuba.
They are the "big 10" must-visit resorts worldwide.
All other resorts worldwide are second-tier and nice-to-visit. |
As usual, you state personal opinion as supposed fact.
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Whitegold quote-"All other resorts worldwide are second-tier and nice-to-visit."
What utter nonsense.
I have skied all the above except Aspen, Jackson Hole & Niseko.
They are all good to visit as are the 70 odd other ski resorts I have skied.
It's all very subjective and mainly down to PERSONAL opinion.
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@Whitegold,
No Chamonix? Think that is a glaring omission.
Yes - I appreciate it is not a big linked area but still the scenery, the atmosphere off the town and the drama of the skiing make it essential
Otherwise I tend to agree with your European and NA choices. Don't have experience to judge on Asia.
Although it is hard to argue that the individual resorts are in the same league I do think anyone compiling a must ski list should include Italy. Appreciate you have a bit with Cervinia but don't think that is quite the whole experience. Perhaps Cortina would flesh it out best.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@mad for chelsea, hello flower, welcome to slush nuts and a simple question. Why do you think that you need a "big resort"?
There are plenty of tiny resorts that can challenge you far beyond your skills, St Foy for a start, sweet location, lots of variety within a small footprint, some great accommodation and access to Italy via randonee if you want to push harder. It's a bit difficult to suggest much unless you tell us whether you're just a focused piste mile-muncher or an Explorer. . . Oh and @Whitegold's, just an anal cyst that survives on the agar petri dish we keep handy just to remind us that because life can exist, it doesn't mean it should.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 7-04-16 11:20; edited 2 times in total
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If you search online you can find both accurate and inaccurate lists for piste lengths of ski areas. For example skiresort.info or similar will (generally) give you the published size which is often exaggerated (less so in Austria). You can search for Christoph Schrahe's project and get some more accurate piste lengths too. If you consider just on size and say take those (published) over 200km then that's a good size for a keen intermediate for a week. In this case some omissions (for whatever reason) from those quoted above are Grandvalira (Andorra), Flims/Laax, Arosa/Lenzerheide (Switzerland), Les Sybelles (France), a few other sizable areas such as Espace Lumiere, Vars/Risoul, Espace Diamant (France), and then you have some other bus connected areas (similar ones also mentioned above) like Skirama Dolomiti Adamello-Brenta (Passo Tonale/Madonna), Alpes Vaudoises/Gstaad Mountain Rides/Adelboden-Lenk, Montafon Region, Bregenzerwald Region, Monterosa Region, Val d'Anniviers, Livigno/Bormio/Santa Caterina, Maurienne (Eskimo), and then you have some single ski pass but no ski bus options including Pyrenees (parts of), Tirol (all but St Anton), Kärnten, Salzburgerland, Graubünden, Valais, Dolomites (full area beyond those linked by lift and bus), some of which are only available for a season but some available as weekly tickets too.
But saying all that it depending on who you are, your level of skiing, you interests, etc. anything from 10km of piste to 600km of piste could be appropriate. The 10km piste resort (if you consider somewhere like La Grave) doesn't even have to be only for complete beginners. Try different places before revisiting, when you revisit do so with a different take on the ski area (i.e. off piste instead of on-piste), try to find the hidden gems that 99% of the people on SH won't have been to or won't ever mention (some can be quite large and/or interesting too).
In respect to ski areas getting larger or joining this isn't always good for skiers as it means higher prices and more people. In some cases the changes don't even come with much added value/convenience. It's sad to see smaller ski areas close (like your corner shop shutting due to the Tesco nearby) but I get that is the world we live in.
A lift price example:
Ski Amade:
Excellent area if you get a great value season pass (for Salzburgerland) and visit lots of places on that wider area pass over the winter.
Poor price if you only visit one or two of the areas of the Ski Amade pass over a week (no local lift pass options).
In fact strangely smaller (say less than 100km of piste) in France offer the best value lift passes in Europe (better than Austria or most of Italy). Obviously the larger linked ski areas such as the 3 Valleys conversely have very expensive lift passes.
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FAQ
As you are French I should perhaps reassure you that despite the rather silly post above, we are not all prejudiced against everything French. 