 Poster: A snowHead
|
Anyone who's skied trees knows that there are two good reasons for steering clear of them:
One is the obvious one. The other is 'tree wells' - the void or semi-void of snow that encircles a tree trunk because the snow is shadowed from that area. Tree wells kill, because skiers (or even more likely boarders) go headfirst into them and are unable to remove their equipment. It's not easy to take your skis or board off if you're upside down, suffocating in a snow pit.
This article from The News Tribune looks at the real and present danger in Washington State right now: they've had massive snowfalls, and the tree wells are waiting ....
Have you been lucky enough to escape a tree well? As an instructor friend of mine tends to advise tree skiers: don't look at the trees - look at the snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Hi David.
Despite extensive tree-skiing experience in the Alps I've never seen a tree well. I think they may be more of a North American phenomenon due to their often huge falls of very light powder and well spaced trees.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I've seen them, and managed to avoid them, although sometimes if they are well formed, the slope of them can make it easy to put in a quick turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
On a recent golfing holiday to Ireland I often found myself hitting my golf ball into the vegitation. I usually used a tree wood, sometimes a tree iron for the recovery shot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Was that in N America or Europe Wear The Fox Hat,?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
snowball, seen them in the 3v, desending into Mottaret after a large fall of snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Goldsmith, I've been in one, no danger of suffocating as it was big and only a couple of feet deep, but took me ages to get out much to the amusement of the people I was skiing with. If I remember correctly I was standing next to a tree and fell in and discovered what a tree well was.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowball, North America.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Been in a few in the US.
One word of advise if your tree skiing NEVER ski alone.
Your unlikely to get out of a tree well by yourself & often they collapse in on you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Hubby had to 'swim' out of a tree well in Whistler last March after an overnight snowfall. Luckily snow wasn;t too deep in Whistler last season . His instructor gave the sam advice as DG's friend-look at the snow not the trees .
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
We had tree wells pointed out to us in a SCGB powder course, based at Argentiere - though we were skiing at a nearby resort. Can't remember which - but tree wells are not just a North American thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
but tree wells are not just a North American thing.
|
Nick Zotov, yes but you're probably more likely to encounter them in NA as there's a lot more glade skiing
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
a friend of mine fell into one on kopaonik this year, it was rather amusing - although yes, i can see the dangers now.
we were off piste, just cutting down between two slopes - rather than having to use the flat walkable connection (we are snowboarders). i was ahead of him, and kept on checking where he was. eventually i got to the edge of the piste and looked back but couldnt see him. suddenly about 25 meters away his head popped up from the ground next to a tree. turns out he (as he usually does) took a wide run around a tree, but instead of staying wide decided to cut back close to it. he found that the windswept snow had caused a nice little depression that he was totally unaware of until he was face down in it. a bit of struggling, a lot of laugher from me and eventually he was back out and on the piste.
i guess to be really dangerous they have to be fairly deep, this was only about 3 foot. but its worth making sure you've always got your eyes out for your friends when off pisting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Two friends/clients of mine got stuck in them on Sapins last year. She fell, stuck, couldn't get her skis off etc. shouting for him, panicking a bit etc. didn't realise that he was just as stuck in a tree about 20m further down the slope! Eventually they extricated themselves (or one did, can't remember) and they saw the funny side of it, but yes - it can have serious consequences.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Last year there was a very well written, but very frightening, thread on epicski about a guy skiing at the back of a group in the back-country getting stuck upside down in a tree well.
He strugled for a long time, was losing conciousness and was aware that he was dying.
By pure luck another skier came through the woods and saw a protruding ski. He managed to get him out after a lot of work.
The guy suffered hypothermia and was very, very shaken up and tearful even days later (and in reading it he was quite possibly suffering from post-traumatic-shock).
He was very lucky to have survived.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| Hubby had to 'swim' out of a tree well in Whistler last March after an overnight snowfall. |
You shouldn't have left him out all night.
I had no idea that tree wells were so dangerous. I didn't know what they were, in fact; I assumed that they were where trees had been felled, leaving a hollow with a tree stump in it (which I think are a hazard in some areas).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I've had to clamber out of a couple in Courchevel. Fortunately they weren't too deep, and also fortunately I fell in sideways rather than headfirst, but I can easily imagine that kind of situation being very scary. As it was, I simply provided some amusement for the class I was skiing with 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I almost got stuck in a deep one last week - kind of self induced comedy fall after getting stuck in some really deep powder in a landing zone left me in a tree well semi-upside down. The tree was smallish but the well was very deep. The guys I was skiing with skiied off because they thought I was ok (so did I), but it took some serious effort to get out. Wasn't in too much danger, but it took pretty much all I had and more or less full splits to get out of it. My skis don't relase easily so it was really hard to get them off and even when I did, I just sank in deeper really quickly - quite scary  I spent a good while trying to dig an compact the snow around me enough to get out. As it happens the rest of the gang had stopped less than 50m away and could see the top of the tree shaking, one of them had just started climbing back up but it would have taken some time to get back to me. The area I was in is a pretty low traffic so I reckoned on having to dig myself out, though I always ski with a whistle to attract attention in case of real trouble.
Another danger of tree wells is that the snow can form a kind of snow bridge, leaving a deep hollow below them which once in is more or less imposible to get out of.
Personally I think though avalanches have serious and spectacular killer potential, tree wells are actually more dangerous to me because of the far higher chance of an encounter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
One situation where the avalung would be an almost definite life saver.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Scarpa wrote: |
| One situation where the avalung would be an almost definite life saver. |
Not sure it would help, I thought the avalung just filtered the carbon dioxide out which is a major cause of death in an avalanche, avalanche snow is like concrete once it stops, tree well snow is still light and fluffy so the carbon dioxide can probably get out anyway. Guess it might help in not inhaling the snow though?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
stuarth, Yeah - most accounts I've seen stated that asphyxia due to choking on snow was the cause of death.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
As an instructor friend of mine tends to advise tree skiers: don't look at the trees - look at the snow. |
yep. Sounds like standard mountain biking advice. "Look where you want to go, not where you don't want to go"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You don't have to be skiing deep in the glades either - I've been stuck in one on the piste edge in Keystone, with Mrs W a few hundred yards on wondering where I'd got to.
Not deep ( ? 3ft) , not likely to be on my own for too long because was on piste edge, but extremely hard work and exhausting to get out of. I can certainly see why they can be dangerous if on your own or away from potential rescuers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I had a nasty experience in a tree well a few years ago in St Anton. I was skiing with a group off piste, I was at the back and fell into a tree well. It took me a good three quarters of an hour to detach my skis, and dig myself out. It was quite an unsettling experience, and I was really shaken up by the whole experience.
Unfortunately the Arlberg ski school instructor who had been leading the group was even more shaken up than me, having lost one of the group, and knowing that the only other way down was over a large cliff followed by a long walk. By the time I got to the bottom of the lift, the group were very relieved to see me, being about to raise the alarm. The instructor had gone back up to ski the route again about ten minutes before I got there, and by the time he got down to meet us again I think that he had aged about ten years in an hour.
Overall it was an experience that I wouldn't recommend to anyone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Tree wells are no joking matter - people have been killed at resorts by going in head-first. 
On the other hand - in the back country - if you need to bivvy - you can build a nice snow-shelter by using a tree well as a starting point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
To avoid tree wells, always make your turns below the tree rather than in front. Another tip: never use your pole straps in the forest. If you catch a tree limb, it can dislocate your shoulder quite easily.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Diarmuid wrote: |
| yep. Sounds like standard mountain biking advice. "Look where you want to go, not where you don't want to go" |
yeah, thats related to something commonly called "target fixation" - where you concentrate really hard on something you want to avoid, and as a result end up going towards it. i get this a lot when im doing say a red run with a large drop off to one side. im so paranoid about slipping down that slope i end up concentrating on it and finding myself next to it everytime.
funniest target fixation moment for me was actually mountain biking, in the devils punchbowl in hindhead - at the bottom there was a nice gentle slope, with two bushes on either side. i was so concerned with not riding into one of these bushes i went straight into it. worse was that i had "cow bars" on my handlebars, they caught on the bush and that turned me right into the center of it. turned out it was a holly bush and i was well and truely stuck. i couldnt get out and my friend couldnt get me out because he was laughing too much. since then ive learned to focus on something nice and comfortable in the distance rather than the painful looking options.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| dnc wrote: |
| Diarmuid wrote: |
| yep. Sounds like standard mountain biking advice. "Look where you want to go, not where you don't want to go" |
yeah, thats related to something commonly called "target fixation" - where you concentrate really hard on something you want to avoid, and as a result end up going towards it. i get this a lot when im doing say a red run with a large drop off to one side. im so paranoid about slipping down that slope i end up concentrating on it and finding myself next to it everytime.
funniest target fixation moment for me was actually mountain biking, in the devils punchbowl in hindhead - at the bottom there was a nice gentle slope, with two bushes on either side. i was so concerned with not riding into one of these bushes i went straight into it. worse was that i had "cow bars" on my handlebars, they caught on the bush and that turned me right into the center of it. turned out it was a holly bush and i was well and truely stuck. i couldnt get out and my friend couldnt get me out because he was laughing too much. since then ive learned to focus on something nice and comfortable in the distance rather than the painful looking options. |
they teach you this in motorbike training as well.. if you go into a corner a bit to fast for comfort look for the exit to the bend.. not the nice shiny post box
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Wells can from around things other that trees.
Many years ago we were riding a lift in Mammoth, California, and saw a snowboarder trying to get out of the well around a lift pylon. Didn't realise he was having difficulty until he was still there later on when riding the lift again. But by the time we skied down to him he'd managed to get out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
RobW, I found a pylon well in Wengen in low vis - I thought the piste continued on both sides (as the previous three) but it was roped off requiring a last minute diversion. Unfortunately I didnt see the dip. Fortunately I missed the steelwork.
It took ages to dig myself out. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
