My daughter and I recently skied Madonna di Campiglio and the Spinale Direttissima black.
Partway down was a red sign in honour of the great F1 driver Schumacher - the Schumacher Strei and 70% is mentioned.
The 70% I suspect refers to the slope... but what does this mean?
Is it 10m down, 14m out? And how does this convert to an angle of descent? Is it tan-1 (10/14) = 35o?
It was a great run, but the last bit was a tiny bit steep, and very hard packed, and quite icy in parts. We had to do it again as the first part was so nice.
She was much better than me btw.
Thanks,
TA
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Yup, 35 degrees.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@shockingmoment, I'm pretty sure that, contrary to what you might imagine, 100% is not vertical. In fact 45 degrees = 100%
To calculate slope percentage take the drop divided by the horizantal run and then multiply by 100. So the Shumacher Streif drops 70cm for every 100cm of horizontal.
That is indeed a fantastic run, and the last bit is great, I think just the getting over the ledge makes people think twice, It was icy as hell when we were there, and I saw quite a few take off their skis and walk back up to the nearest lift.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
@shockingmoment, I'm pretty sure that, contrary to what you might imagine, 100% is not vertical. In fact 45 degrees = 100%
No, there's no contradiction
Quote:
Is it 10m down, 14m out?
So, if it's 10m down and 10m out, it's 100%, which is 45 degrees.
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abc wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@shockingmoment, I'm pretty sure that, contrary to what you might imagine, 100% is not vertical. In fact 45 degrees = 100%
No, there's no contradiction
Quote:
Is it 10m down, 14m out?
So, if it's 10m down and 10m out, it's 100%, which is 45 degrees.
I should have said 'contrary to what one might imagine'. I wasn't implying that the OPs calculations were wrong just generally waffling on about the topic. Personally, I would have thought that 100% should be vertical as a slope angle of, say, 150% seems counter-intuitive. ....... but I'm wrong
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The UK steep road warning signs changed from the old easy to understand "1 in 8" or "1 in 4" etc, to the current percentage system which gives "12%" or "25%". I suspect that most can automatically relate 25% to 1 in 4, but other percentages require some thought.
I'm sure it must be some EU directive
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I’ve always been a bit puzzled by this but following the line taken above if a drop of 70m over 100m means it is 70% then what would a drop of 100m over 70 m be? Presumably 143%. That just sounds a bit odd. I think a description in degrees is more use in a skiing context.
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@foxtrotzulu, vertical is infinite percentage.
@PowderAdict, Yes, 1 in 8 has been changed to 12% as it is easier to understand. Afterall you do not have to do the division. Of course it is not an EU directive.
@DJL, What is wrong with 143%? But I agree degrees are easier to understand
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Look at http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/slope-degrees-gradient-grade-d_1562.html : it's exponential (if I've got my terminology right - years since I did maths) - as we know 45deg = 1 in 1 = 100%, but as you get steeper eg 80deg = 567.1%; 85deg=1143%; then approaching 90deg (vertical) becomes infinity%
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@PowderAdict, Yes, 1 in 8 has been changed to 12% as it is easier to understand. Afterall you do not have to do the division. Of course it is not an EU directive.
What division? it's a ratio! I can visualise 1:8, I can visualise degrees, I struggle to visualise a percentage as a gradient. Must be getting old!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@anarchicsaltire, couldn't have put it better myself. At low angles % is more or less OK but as it gets steeper it gets silly. Not that I'm ever likely to ski anything over 100% / 1 in 1 / 45 degrees
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
At slopes up to 25% it makes very little practical difference whether it is Sin-1 or Tan-1 as no-one is actually measuring the slope that precisely. Since I tend to ski along the hypotenuse I think the Sin-1 is the more useful one so for me 70% gradient is that I have skied 100m and descended 70m. (Not that I would want to ski anything that steep).
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Maybe having 100% as 45° is somehow easier to calculate but I still maintain it's completely counter-intuitive. If 0% is flat, then perpendicular to that should be 100%. By the same token, 50% is clearly half way, i.e. equal rise for equal run. Having 85° convert to 1143% is utterly bonkers to me. Still, I guess that's the way it is.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Stop it now. You're giving me a headache. I'm off to think about the size of the universe instead, it's easier to grasp.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
johnE wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, vertical is infinite percentage.
We don't want to ski into the infinity. But we like to ski infinitely long.
but if 100 was perpendicular, ie 90deg then it would be gradians. ie 100 grad.
sometimes better known as the short lived French attempt at metric degrees (although still often exists on calculators - certainly is on my Casio ones)
as for visualising, what I visualise when looking at an angle on a sheet of paper, with horizontal and verticals, is much different to what I visualise when standing at the top of a slope, the bottom of a slope, and a slope when looking down on it from a chairlift. We even got out the android inclinometer app on a black run once because we didn't believe the angle of difficulty.
% or x-in-1 means nothing to me other than just meaning steep (ca 10%) or frickin' steep (ca.25%) when on a road sign.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Percentage of grade is just that: the percentage of vertical over horizontal. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you have trouble visualizing rise over distance, by all means use degrees. I personally find it equally easy either way.
Just like 1 of 8 vs 12%. It really depends on what one's doing with that number. If one in eight failed, the other 7 is passed. 12% of 8 is harder to understand in that context. But out of 10,000, 12% is easier to understand. If you're a road engineer or roofer, percentage of rise over distance makes perfect sense. But if you're making a chair, degree is what you use.
Ski slope? The signs were probably put up by the road engineers who are not skiers!
There's a degree of marketing hype creeping in, I suspect. Big numbers (%) are always more impressive than smaller numbers (degrees). Jungfrau Region never used to crow about slope angles on their piste map, but sure enough the numbers have started creeping in over the past couple of seasons.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
For cycling walking and uphill skiing, % is the easiest measure - you can look at your map and see that over 1km you have to climb 150m (say) so 15%, and you know how steep that is. Not so easy to convert it into sin so 1 in something.
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After all it is free
So it looks like my maths are correct 35o... thanks everyone for your contributions - however it seemed an awful lot steeper than that!
Maybe an optical illusion, but standing on the ledge, looking down, or even standing at the bottom, looking up, it seemed more like 60o.
The consensus seems to be that skiing anything greater than 45o is probably a no no for most skiers, but if you make a 45o degree angle - it doesn't seem that steep?
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There is definitely an optical illusion element at play with slope angles, mostly because it doesn't always register that 90 is vertical. Beyond 45 degrees you are basically in free fall, there is very little you can do to stop gravity. That's the sort of terrain where if your edges slip you better pray you don't end up sliding off, or into anything! 60o must be close to unskiable unless over a very small stretch to get back to reality. Snow wouldn't even stick to it.
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@andy, +1 for Sheldon
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@shockingmoment, 35 degrees looks steep because it is. The Idwal slabs, a popular rock climbing area are only 50 degrees and when you are 150m up and look down it is pretty scary.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@johnE, hardly. The Idwal slabs is the least scary place I've ever climbed.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@DJL, Years ago I did tennis shoe, found no places for runners or a stance (I think I was off route). I ran out of rope. Since we were climbing as two teams I asked the second team to tie their rope to mine so I could continue. I was pretty scared. Have you seen the famous sheep video? http://youtube.com/v/1m2HJpGtv70
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Sheep video I guess they should have worn rock shoes.
Tennis shoe is far from the shallowest angle on there and pretty polished as I recall (though it was a lot of years ago >25). A proper route with a long runout and no runners would be scary!
I was thinking of the classic easy routes up the middle (Ordinary, Faith , Hope, Charity) where we used to take first timers on the University Freshers' climbing trip.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DJL wrote:
Sheep video I guess they should have worn rock shoes.
FAQ
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I guess they should have worn rock shoes.
