Is SkiTracks Causing Accidents?

A snowHead

Hi All, first post so be gentle, just done another week in the white stuff and wanted to ask thoughts on the very popular app of Ski Tracks.

Of course one of the main things the app records is your speed, proudly showing it in the top corner in big letters. And I think it's fair to say we all look straight to that box after an exhilarating run, to see what ridiculous speed we clocked without feeling the need to stack it. Likewise, also fun to check after a good wipe out to see what we managed to survive.

The thing is though, I wonder if this facility is causing accidents. Does it cause groups to compete, or indeed for individuals to go hunting for a new PB, with perhaps a bit less regard to whether they can actually properly control their skis at those high speeds? Will groups of skiers push way beyond the point of sensibility to clock a better speed than their mates? Personally I think yes, and this week saw 3 injuries (one helicopter) which were more or less caused by pointlessly hooning it, on hard icey snow, with SkiTracks running.

I don't really know what can be done about it, SkiTracks is a fun app with plenty of genuine purpose. I just wanted to ask others experiences, and whether you think the advent of an affordable and accessible speed recorder for skiers and boarders, has been responsible for any increase in speed-related accidents?

A snowHead

@dp, welcome to snowheads. I keep forgetting to switch it on. I suspect I'm not the audience you are asking!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Were all three injuries people in your group?

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Thanks, @holidayloverxx . If it makes you feel better, I forget too. I miss half my morning runs, and record the journey home as a run. I suck at it.

Swiftoid - no, only 2 were in my group.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@dp, how do you know the other one had SkiTracks running?

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I know the people they were skiing with.

What does this matter?

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It's just seems rather unusual to personally witness three injuries all involving people you know (or who is a 'friend of a friend') in a single week skiing.

Anyway, no, SkiTracks (other apps are available) hasn't imo been responsible for any speed related accident ever. If someone hurts themselves by going faster than they can handle and screwing up then the responsibility lies solely with them not any app. Apps don't hurt people, idiots hurt themselves (and more sadly sometimes hurt others too) .

After all it is free

Yes I agree, most unpleasant.

Of course, it doesn't directly cause the accident. But it's like the gun control argument - guns don't kill people, idiots kill people, with guns.

The question is, does the facility to track your speed so easily and affordably incite people to ski faster than their ability allows for, in turn increasing accident likelihood and thus being a contributory cause to an accident.

Thought there was a thread maybe a month ago that basically led to this conclusion - too many 14 yr olds trying to rack up a personal best without having the requisite braking or steering skills.

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I've skied with a garmin in my pocket for years. I haven't skied in to anyone yet. Doesn't change the way I ski, the conditions or how busy it is change the way I ski. I'm far too aware of my own mortality to ski like a nutter.

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I would agree, I see too many people hurtling down a slope, perform a café stop and whip their phone out to check which ever App it is they carry. I understand one app collates the best scores for each resort so you can compare yourself with the rest of the World. Currently, the top speed in Tignes is 180kph, which is 20kph faster than Johan Clarey's record down hill speed Puzzled

And if we are going off piste, we check that people turn the apps off as they drain the battery, no point knowing your speed if none of you can call the pisteurs!

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Someone was killed a couple of years back trying to break his record on SkiTracks, so it's probably true to argue that it does encourage dangerous behaviour and faster speeds. However, I think the effect is rare and slight. If you want to look at things that encourage dangerous behaviour and accident rates on the mountain then Ski Tracks is a long way down the list. Snow Parks are probably the biggest culprits by far with off-piste skiing also accounting for a small number of very serious accidents. I suppose you could argue that the maximum speed measurement should be capped at 100kmh to discourage speeding, but I'm not sure that's really necessary.

@swiftoid, is quite correct, it's the idiots that let themselves get out of control not the apps, that cause the injury.

@dp, which part of the bullet fired from the gun does not inflict injury or death?

It seems to me from what you say that you and your group are trying to compete with and against the app and each other.

Welcome to Very Happy

You know it makes sense.

@northantsred, the bullet is the thing which causes death, but it only causes death because a person attached to the other end of the gun pulled the trigger. that is the argument of gun rights groups, that it's not the guns which are dangerous, it's the people handling them.

Likewise it is not SkiTracks which is dangerous, it is the people who use SkiTracks to push themselves beyond the safe limit that their current ability allows.

And why does it seem like my group are competing? Mainly using ST to measure distance skied. Yes I ski with some people who are speed obsessed but if that's what they're into, who am I to comment?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@dp, the app is just a tool. not being aware of your situation on the piste and failing to obey the FIS piste rules is what causes accidents

A snowHead

I've skied with a group a few times, and three skiers have been using their smartphones to review their speed on many occasions (separately and jointly), remarking upon it in a way that indicates they are being influenced to improve it.

So, yup, such an app is likely to encourage people to ski fast from time to time (more than they otherwise would) - increasing their risk of occasioning a speed related accident.

But, this could all just be just a fad, and a phase most such app users will go through, until they once more revert to skiing for pleasure instead of being spurred to beat their personal best.

A snowHead

@D G Orf, yes exactly why I mentioned the gun thing. The gun is just a tool. Choosing to shoot somebody with it is what causes death.

Hence, my title was a bad one. Does ST cause accidents? No. But does it influence accidents? I think so

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

There is no doubt whatsoever in other activities that speed measuring apps encourage a minority to chase the numbers without due regard to their own safety or the safety of others. For example the Strava effect is well known amongst cyclists. I don't see why skiing would be immune from this issue. Btw I am a cyclist who uses Strava.

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@dp, Welcome to SH's. I skied in a large group of 33 this Jan, and a good % use ST and they all compare the top speeds, which always ends up with some degree of competition. Even I, a 53 year old intermediate ended up using the AP to see how fast i ski. Now i didn't push beyond my limits, it hurts at my age to eat too much corn! but I did ski closer to my limit than usual..52 mph which was plenty fast enough for me! found a nice wide, quiet red run....Courses in La Plagne.....great run if you find yourself there.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

My group use it for measuring distance covered or height descended, but you're right, you do look at speed too.

As pointed out above, the idiots who used it to try and just get a max speed would be egging it down the same slope regardless, it's just now they've got something to put numbers on it i.e. they were speed freaks before the app was invented. I also vaguely remember a youth in France? about 2 years ago who was killed as he / she went off the edge of the piste at a vast speed and they reckon ski tracks had something to do with that.

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@swiftoid,

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Age 57, use SkiTracks when I remember.

Definitely influenced speed on testosterone driven boys week.

If you see a slope that might achieve a high speed then we tend to Schuss from that bit higher up the hill ... Stupid but true.

Followed by a poker game style disclosure at the next coffee stop.

I have noticed that some slopes now have set up chicane type barriers on the choice speedy runs.

Regardless of the maximum speed, which I think has to be taken with a pinch of salt, the distance and vertical on a given day are good to look back on.

After all it is free

Yes I think it does amongst my holiday maker skier male friends

I think it must contribute to accidents.

I am one of those who sneered at a recent 'how fast' thread, pouring scorn on anyone who would be so childish and irresponsible to care about how fast they went on the slopes. I was so self righteous behind my keyboard.

However..... few weeks ago went to VT with a couple of mates including Paul. In the restaurant in the evening, Paul whipped out his iPhone and showed us all how fast he had gone. As Paul wasn't as strong skier as the others I think we all gradually fell into the subconcious trap of all wanting to show a faster speed than the others the next evening.

Indeed the next evening came and out popped the skitracks apps and the subtlety of how everyone's max speeds was innocuously introduced into the conversation was a joy to beyhold. Of course we were all too mature to admit this was a competition but each evening the max speeds were getting quicker and quicker.

Did it affect our safety and add risk?? I think it did. I found myself trying to straightline the red off Cimes de Caron, nearly came a cropper and scared the pants off myself. I gave up after that.

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@dp, before the invention of ski tracks app skiers only ever tootled about at leisurely pace suitable to geriatrics. No one ever tried to go fast or get that ridiculous buzz from pushing their physical and mental boundaries. I don't ever recall a single injury or death until ski tracks was used. I find when I don't have it switched on I ski sensibly but at the flick of an app I ski way too fast and try to commence operation certain death Razz

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@jirac18,

I'm sure people didn't need an iPhone app to start going fast. For a start, watches have been around somewhat longer.

But I do think being able to see your peak speed leads people to try and push that bit further to increase the big number on the screen, especially in a group.

It's actually a completely useless statistic too. It just shows your peak speed which you only really need to attain for a second to register. The big number on the home screen doesn't show what speed you were able to maintain!

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I'm sure someone pointed out recently that they'd achieved Mach2 as measured by this app: I'm not sure the accuracy is something to be relied upon.

I frequently see people in mountain bars comparing their clocked speeds and there can be little doubt that many, most even, have gone faster than they otherwise would in order to 'score' more highly.
It is fair to say that some tools seem 'infectious' in that they appear to turn many of their users into tools too but one can hardly blame the app entirely.

The only clear solution is to go consistently much faster than any of them so they can't hit U from behind Wink

Human nature always pushes some people too far and beyond their capability this is evident in just about any sport and certainly in any activity involving speed. The ski app recording speed is just a by product

You know it makes sense.

SkiTracks and any of the other apps will cause some to race. They would have raced before, but now they have 'proof' of who was fastest.

I know that the cycling app Strava has been documented as being a contributory factor in accidents, and there has been at least one court case where the relatives of the deceased tried to sue Strava, on the basis that it encourages reckless riding by publishing average speed and segment times.

I have used SkiTracks, as being a techie person, I find it interesting to compare perceived skiing to actual measured skiing.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I always forget to switch it on, but I know of a few people who like to boast how fast they've been. I'm not even sure it's that accurate.

A snowHead

It is a cool app.

Time the hill and mock the losers with the slowest speeds, lol.

A snowHead

Im sure it does (not bad in our mixed group trip or couples trip, but when you get the all-decent-skiers-mostly-guys weekend trip you can see the competetive increase enwmarine describes) but you can't turn back time and uninvent speedos or turn off the competitive instincts. Enforcement against those who take it to far (cf driving) and education (cf smoking\drink driving) the only real controls I see, ban an app and 10 more spring up as GPS is a useful tool so not going to be removed.

On the other side it can be a safety tool, I was horrified at how fast we were going when we first ran it, I suspect several of my guys actually now ski slower than they did most of the time as realising you are hitting the best part of 50 aided only by what is basically a pair of floorboards is sobering.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

As racing* is forbidden on non-race-designated pistes (in most resorts), all it needs is for wintersports insurers to (eagerly) state that a skier is not covered (and is automatically at fault) if, upon an accident, they are in possession of a speed measuring device - unless specifically covered for racing.

* defined to include time trials.

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Are new skis causing accidents allowing people to push harder than they did five years ago?

Strava, Garims, even GoPros all pushing people to and beyond their limits, It's human nature to progress and fail.

I use a Gamin everyday of the week, walking, swimming, running, cycling and even skiing. Personally i couldn't give a monkeys about what others can do, I do let it push me a little when training, Pushing yourself is the only way to progress, knowing your limits is the only way to survive.
I only use it skiing to monitor my heart rate(of course I look at the speed too,but don't lets it push me beyond my skills).

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Ok lets go back to the gun rights so, its not the tools that are causing the issue, its the idiots using them, if you are stupid enough to think after 4 days skiing you are in control at 100mph go ahead and do the world a favor.

I'd be comfortable letting it push me because I know my limits, Its simply an issue of people not knowing how to use it right.
The app doesn't make you want to ski faster, That's your competitive nature. As already mentioned you could see who's faster by using a watch and basic maths, Speed = Distance/Time .
You're looking to lay blame on the app rather than the fools putting themselves and others at risk.

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