 Poster: A snowHead
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Are we that lazy, disorganised or needing instant gratification so that many of us seem to rate this as essential as clean sheets, good food and hot water when choosing a chalet.
I'm curious because I think this is a growing obsession and is helping fuel the high altitude building boom that many think is spoiling the Alps (it's a judgement call:? ).
Is it the British that've driven this and is this attitude being exported by international resort developers to countries and resorts that have traditionally been just a transport terminus serving a larger conurbation?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| Is it the British that've driven this and is this attitude being exported by international resort developers to countries and resorts that have traditionally been just a transport terminus serving a larger conurbation? |
I recently bought an apartment with a ski in/out location. The majority of owners are French.
I fail to see the virtue of choosing a location solely on the basis that it is a long way from the skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, when our children were small , it was much more important than it is now. We had to get them and all their gear to ski school. However, different priorities have taken over now. Our new place is a short walk to the slopes, but is definitely not ski-in/ski-out.
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rob@rar.org.uk, There's no overt criticism implied. I'm just curious about current and future development.
Over many years the Brits have been a driving force in European ski leisure, but you(we) have developed a desire for a level of sybaritic convenience that's not been needed Worldwide (particularly in North America). Is this desire for convenience being spread by international resort developers to other and newer countries and consumers . . . to the detriment of the environment?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Masque wrote: |
rob@rar.org.uk, There's no overt criticism implied. I'm just curious about current and future development.
Over many years the Brits have been a driving force in European ski leisure, but you(we) have developed a desire for a level of sybaritic convenience that's not been needed Worldwide (particularly in North America). Is this desire for convenience being spread by international resort developers to other and newer countries and consumers . . . to the detriment of the environment? |
To get a driving force in any market you need a supply AND a demand, yes? If that's the case I wouldn't agree that it is the Brits that have been driving the European ski industry by ourselves. Sure, we are an important part of the equation, but an equally important part are the local, regional and national organisations across Europe that are happy to expand their supply of ski places. In general it is those organsiations that set environmental standards, not the consumers.
I could have bought an apartment in Bourg Saint Maurice rather than on the piste in Arc 1800. This might have provided superficial environmental superiority compared to all those sheep-like people who bought up the mountain, but I still would have needed to travel the final 10 miles to get to the snow (and every day, not just once or twice per week). Of course, I would then have to carry the burden of knowing that I'd helped push up local housing prices, perhaps making it more difficult for young local residents to buy property. I'd also have a hand in creating a community which was at least partially dead during the off-season. There are always pros and cons to these debates (unless I give up skiing altogether, in which case my environmental impact is zero), but on balance I think ski in/out accommodation is no worse than other kinds of new build.
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Masque, Perhaps one the reasons is that although Brits comprise a fair number of the world's skiers, not many have the opportunity to go more than a week a year (unlike many lucky other Europeans and North Americans,) and the convenience of ski-in, ski-out enhances the enjoyment. Another reason could be that after all, for most the trip is a holiday, and let's face it if you were on a summer holiday and wanted to be beside the sea - one wouldn't stay at an in-land property. I'm not sure its a case of being lazy etc. more a case of wanting to enhance that one week a year that we spend the remaining 51 weeks dreaming about.
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If you loved sailing, would you rather have a place overlooking the marina, or a place in town. Ski in / out is great.
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rob@rar.org.uk, Sorry, I've not been clear, in this thread I'd like to exclude in-resort purchasers, that's an entirely different matter. It's the ski tourism that the vast majority of us take is the greater influence on resort development. Many of us have experienced what the French think of as 'spacious' accommodation and because of that, we're seeing new developments built with far more elbow room.
Our discontent with conditions that the French and other Europeans have been willing to accept in accommodation has been a driving force and has brought in the international developers. Interestingly, I think its the developers that are driving the 'buy to let' aspect of mountain building but that's come from the other side of the 'Pond'. Where it's being built on the mountain is our influence.
I am speculating here so don't hold back
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MJH, You're on point ... but is it the best use of resources and environment. Have we become conditioned to convenience?
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk, Sorry, I've not been clear, in this thread I'd like to exclude in-resort purchasers, |
OK, I'm happy to be excluded from this one, although I still fail to see the virture of choosing (to buy, or to temporarily stay in) a location which is on the side of the piste compared to one which is in the centre of the resort.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar.org.uk, That's the point, is it our historical desire for convenience that is driving the development of high-hill building just because we're lazy and selfish and because of our attitudes, that being exported as a standard requirement to new ski areas that most probably will be harmed by it?
You seem to be expressing a 'Devil take the hindmost' thought and on that I'll call your post 'shallow'. (leans back and braces for impact  )
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Masque, That's OK, I'm a shallow kind of guy.
I think that your title to this thread is a bit confused. You're actually railing against high-altitude development, not ski in/out. You are David Goldsmith, and I claim my £5.
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You know it makes sense.
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in kopoanik there are a few apartments which are truely ski in/ski out. ie, actually halfway up a slope. i stayed in one last year and it was fabulous. the lack of walking to get to a ski lift in the mornings really made a big difference (we were up earlier every day, and stayed out as late as the lifties would let us).
the main reason for wanting that apartment in the first place, was that it was quiet in the evenings. no nightlife within earshot - you are just up on the mountain, a perfect nights sleep. much better than being in the heart of the resort with bars/clubs open till 2/3am.
so overall, even though its only a 5 minute walk to the lifts, it did make a huge difference to the attitude in the mornings, and being actually on a piste at night time - well that made the most difference.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I doubt that ski in ski out accomodation has been imported from outside Europe, as I think Masque posited in his first post. There are plenty of European ski in ski out resorts which I'm sure pre date the N.American ski boom.
There is a difference between accomodation in 'traditional' villages which is lucky enough to be ski in ski out and entire villages which are, such as Val Claret. The former is really where I want to stay, but rarely, if ever, do; a chalet in Meribel which you could just about ski to and from, through people's gardens, and a chalet in Oberlech, right on the piste, but Oberlech isn't a real village.
The impression I have is that it was the French who pioneered the 'Let's build miniscule apartments, suitable only as kennels for our revolting little dogs, right by the piste.' school of ski resort development. There is a venerable tradition of French families renting miniscule apartments on the mountain or the beach for their hols. I haven't skied enough in Europe recently to know whether this has spread to ski resorts in other countries. Not much sign of it in Kitzbuhel, but Masque's first post suggests that perhaps it has.
I doubt that Brits are particularly to blame (if blame is to be apportioned). The French encourage new building in tourist areas more than they encourage renovation, I believe, and it is presumably local buyers, commercial and private, not Brits, at whom new buildings are directed in France and elsewhere.
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Poster: A snowHead
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richmond, I was told a lot of French live in small city apartments all the time, so don't think the ski apartments are that bad for a weeks holiday.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Helen Beaumont, yes, I thought that might account for it, although I know of several French families who live in decent sized houses (and in one case own another decent sized country place) and still insist on holidaying in a wardrobe. I suppose that they feel that they'll spend little time in the apartment, so what's the problem? I sympathize, but they do seem to have taken it to extremes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I always got the impression the french not the brits had driven the high altitude convienience resorts - after all they are all (mostly) in france?? The north americas don't historically have this as they prefer to drive (IMO probably worse overall for the environment).
Given a choice between on slope/high altitude and not I'd take ski in/out everytime - I'm not sure trying to label everyone who does so as selfish and lazy is really encouraging sensible discussion - or are you just trying to start an argument? I presume we should also stay away from the beach, and not want to stay in villages inside a national park etc etc too?
Bottom line is everyone would prefer for things to be convenient - it's up to regulatory bodies to decide how far to let things go, no?
aj xx
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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people will pay for, comfort and convienience... in whatever lesiure pursuits they undertake.. if some resorts dont provide that and others do people will go to the latter.. ok you could argue that some places will attract die hard skiers even if they have to sleep underneath a VW camper van.. but the big euro spenders are what resorts want and need to keep facilities in tip top conditions.. its all about the money.. invest to increase income to invest more.. and the big spenders go where its nice comfy and hassle free..
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I don't mind walking in a nice village - somewhere like Saas Fee. But I understand the different viewpoint of those with children.
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| Masque wrote: |
The irony of some of the posts here is acute. . .
We want to participate and enjoy and active sport but we're dammed if we're going to use any effort to get to where we can do it |
I assume that you're joking. There's a difference between knackering yourself bouncing down some moguls, working your way down a nice bit of powder, flying down a red, struggling down a blue, whatever you do on the slopes, and struggling along an icy road in ski boots carrying your (and maybe someone else's) skis or standing on a crowded bus wearing the boots and carrying the skis. They're both hard work, but one's fun, the other isn't. It's the same reason that most of us don't walk up the piste, but use the lifts.
For anyone who can't see the difference, why not have your ski hols at home, and just walk about all day in and with your ski kit, perhaps jumping on public transport every now and then? For that authentic ski holiday experience, you can tear up £20 notes while you're doing it.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 18-01-06 18:31; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd be pretty sure that ski-in ski out is a Euro sourced concept as Whistler was and remains a relative novelty in N America although Whistler's success has led to the Intrawest realestate concept being developed a lot more widely which we are now seeing in Europe. A lot of US ski areas are on national forest land under lease so actual on hill development is limited. Personally I've always thought ski in/out was overrated - you can be isolated a long way from bars/restaurants or condemned to skiing poor runs to get home everyday.
Nowadays I would appreciate the ability to change gear e.g. alpine for tele or snowboard mid day but I could also do this parked in the right car park.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob,
The downside of Whistler not being ski-in-ski-out is balanced but its excellently run bus and road / pavement management systems. Most French resorts leave snow and ice all over the pavements, making walking about a right pain in the backside.
That said, I'm with Masque, we need to think of the conequences.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Masque, I'm not sure that I'm bright enough to consider all the angles for this type of topic - I wonder where it could all end? If accomodation is not built on the mountains, do you expand in the towns/villages at the base of the mountains, increase traffic volumes in the areas, increase pollution, drive up property prices, drive away locals from being able to afford a home in their home towns etc? In truth, I wouldn't know where to start looking for the answers. I would hope that the governing bodies undertake enviromental studies etc, attach importance to the enviromental impact, and as such look after the mountain long-term.
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Are we just having a holiday ... or are we participating in a sport?
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I think that it is reasonable to suggest that for most of us, our ski/board trips are more holidays than sport - whilst I'm more in the camp of skiing first lift to last lift and getting as much time on the snow as possible (and taking it seriously - technique etc.) rather than a couple of cruises and then lunch (not that I am suggesting there is anything wrong with that approach), I couldn't claim for a moment that I participate at a 'sport' level.
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Just out of interest Masque, what were the last three or four resorts you visited?
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You know it makes sense.
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I am having a holiday, not just participating in a sport 
I think its just number of people that causes the 'problems' same as with any tourism? For most areas no tourism itsn't great ,a little to a moderate amount is good, a lot is generally a bad thing - but the only was to stop 'a lot' is for something to be expensive, inconvienient (long flight etc) or regulate it in some way?
I'm with however above that said it's a bit too tricky for me, but I would hope the relevant local and federal governments take these things into account with planning permissions etc..
aj xx
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
Are we just having a holiday ... or are we participating in a sport? |
Is someone who visits the beach each summer and splashes around doing a doggy paddle in the water less worthy than the next guy who jumps in wearing a triathlon suit and swimming cap and proceeds to swim 2k in the open sea? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Is it better for skiers to stay down the mountain and travel up to the skiing or stay up the mountian? No idea, probably not much in it, but I'm sure that what really bugg*rs the environment is having skiing in it at all. Once you've done tha, I doubt that it makes much difference where everyone stays.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar.org.uk, I'm the first to hold my hand up to staying 'in-resort' but it was: NB none of these choices were made with any thought to convenience, I had other specific reasons for being there.
La Ros ... short bus trip to lifts
Valandry ... a graceful little tap-dance around the dog poop and vomit before joining the morning's hangover bulls**t competition
Schladming ... about 400M saunter through the town to the first uplink (gets yet boots warmed up) Many of the Austrian resorts seem to be towns first and resorts second ... which with the brewery 100M away meant the deer was 'fresh' .
This thread is prompted by a project I'm developing and the reams of spam and snail-mail that it's generating. The promotion of 'ski in ski out' convenience is heavily marketed to the UK leisure market and just listening to the tone of some conversations here I wonder if we bear a little more responsibility for mountain development than we recognise
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Most skiers are on holiday to spend time having fun and not commuting. I for one want to maximise the bit I enjoy. There are lots of things in my life not just to do with skiing that I could do to help the environment or conservation that I don't do, and some that I do do. It is still a matter of opinion and an arbitrary choice as to what each considers worth doing both in terms of effort and value. At present I choose ski-in ski-out. 
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I'd rather spend my evenings in a nice locale with plenty of diversions, than have ski-in, ski-out convenience. Of course, both together would be better still.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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richmond,
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but I'm sure that what really bugg*rs the environment is having skiing in it at all.
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And that probably opens up an entirely new can of worms - I know that the ski/board industry is nowhere near as large as many manufacturing industries, but I wonder how much enviromently non-friendly waste is generated in the production of ski boots, skis, snowboard boots, snowboards, ski poles, plastic lift passes etc. etc. etc. Extreme I know, but as I said in an earlier posting, how far do you take the concerns?
As someone who enjoys my snow holidays so much, I hope that I'm not contributing to something that is too eco-unfriendly 
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MJH, I meant the environment in which the skiing takes place, but your extension is fair enough.
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Could the reducing numbers of UK skiers to Switzerland be connected with ski in ski out I wonder.
As a gross generalisation few Swiss resorts offer ski in/out and in some cases the resorts are poorly connected.
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When people claim they're too time poor to be able to peel, boil and smack with a hammer an 'umble spud and would rather buy a plastic tray of plain mash from the chill cabinet at Tesco you have to wonder if this is a generic trait in our attitude toward life and leisure.
Over a long time period we've been demanding accommodation that mirrors our home comfort, food that's only just foreign enough to still be recognisable and there's a thread in here somewhere having a go at French shopping hours (bet they never complained about bar opening hours in the old days when UK pubs were only open between 7 and 10). It's now being delivered.
I think our devotion and dependence on our car has fueled this need for ski in ski out convenience. The simple fact that without it we mourn its loss and feel demeaned and uncomfortable in the need to use public transport and are completely unprepared mentally to share a crowded space with others. It's alien to us so we demand accommodation that eliminated the need for any type of transport. Earlier I postulated it was laziness, could anxiety be the stronger motivation.
We're approaching an energy crisis, could we see (if any of us can even afford to keep skiing) a return to the simpler days of infrequent piste bashing and resorts that have a far more integrated transport system to the surrounding area like Switzerland?
I think there's something wrong in the way our leisure industry is developing and I think that we are the driving force in that development. Any change can only come from the consumer so what do you suggest?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Any change can only come from the consumer so what do you suggest? |
Perhaps you could lead by example?
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rob@rar.org.uk,  ooo Betty!
And in a small way I am with this thread and I'm actively working on something else.
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FAQ
) walk a few hundred metres or so to the nearest slope, but when you're herding a group of children, juggling their skis and poles (and usually carrying more than just your own pair of skis, every single metre is energy and soul sapping. After all we are supposed to be on holiday, and I haven't chosen to spend the week scaling the north face of the Eiger - I want some something a bit less energetic (that's excluding the skiing od course 
bite me 