My question is only about "On Piste" Carvers that will be used predominantly on the groomed stuff. I can certainly see the advantage of Rockers as you head off the beaten track, or need an All Mountain ski.
I had a 5 year absence from skiing due to a deteriorating back, which culminated in surgery. When I returned, virtually every ski type now had something called, "a Rocker", which came in various types, depending on intended use.
For somebody who seems to have got left behind by the latest trends, my query is this:
It sounds counterintuitive (to me) that an Early Rise tip is necessary on an Expert Piste Ski, given that it is preferable to pressure the tip at the start of a carved turn, which helps pull you in. Surely, a fully cambered design is the best way to achieve this. Am I missing out, or is this a marketing driven gimmick to sell more skis?
However, I can see that it may be an advantage on Intermediate skis, as it should make turn initiation easier.
Apologies if I'm going over old ground.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 14-03-16 22:31; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Depends on if the snow is hard or soft.
Hard Snow : having the full length of the ski edge in contact with the piste can give more grip.
Soft Snow : tip rocker can be beneficial (even on a piste). Tip rocker on piste skis is basically no more than a big shovel which deflects the snow. Tip rocker certainly makes the turn initiation a little easier / smoother. Once pressure is applied to a ski its camber is reversed and the full edge contracts snow.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Haggis Trap
Thank you for your quick reply.
I assume a Piste Rocker, if properly designed, doesn't flap once cranking up the speed....I also take it that Rockers are used in some of the World Cup disciplines.
On piste I am reasonably convinced that it's all marketing puff...
Off piste maybe not so much.
But still not convinced. After all, off piste in soft snow your skis are decambered anyway...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
^ I think it is more personal preference ?
Piste skis with "rocker" do ski differently - especially during turn initiation.
Though basically the rocker on a carving ski is nothing more than a big shovel with softer flex at tip.
Quote:
I assume a Piste Rocker, if properly designed, doesn't flap once cranking up the speed...
Correct - the flex should be stiffer under foot.
However it depends on the ski length.... and quality of the ski.
Some manufacturers do subtle rocker better than others.
Quote:
that Rockers are used in some of the World Cup disciplines.
Yes : but remember most WC races on are held on boiler plate pistes injected with water
On piste I am reasonably convinced that it's all marketing puff...
Off piste maybe not so much.
But still not convinced. After all, off piste in soft snow your skis are decambered anyway...
By any chance have you experienced any?
I use Atomic Beta Ride 11.20s, which were considered a wide Freeride ski back in 03, with their 70mm under foot.....I think something with a 95mm waist and a Rockered tip and tail would be much easier Off, but much less agile On. I'm very light, so I get by with my old Atomics.
I don't really understand the current trend for using skis above 80mm as the weapon of choice, if staying On Piste most of the time....unless the ski shops and marketing machines are pushing them as the latest "must have" thing to have on your feet.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Another related question - I assume you can ski them a little longer, as they presumably "ski shorter" than their length suggests (compared to a fully cambered ski).
Thank you all for the info, so far.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Old Fartbag, I tried rockered skis, albeit piste oriented and "intermediate" skis today and wasn't much impressed - for the type of ski I want.
But in general, considering basic engineering/physics...
I'm not sur why you want camber anyway, much less rocker?
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under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, I tried rockered skis, albeit piste oriented and "intermediate" skis today and wasn't much impressed - for the type of ski I want.
But in general, considering basic engineering/physics...
I'm not sur why you want camber anyway, much less rocker?
I'm no engineer, but I believe the Camber allows extra pressure at tip and tail (useful for starting and finishing the turn) and when pushed into reverse camber, literally springs you into the next turn. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Lots of piste rocker = marketing rocker. Almost any piste ski with some tip rocker will outperform an Atomic Betaride from 15+ years ago though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Old Fartbag, plausible except that the skis (as long as you're in contact with the snow) never return to their cambered state. I wonder if it's a hang up from original xc skis where I think the camber helped raise the ski off the sticky wax for the glide stroke.
No idea really.
@Dave of the Marmottes,
Quote:
Almost any piste ski with some tip rocker will outperform an Atomic Betaride from 15+ years ago though.
Why??
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
^ Camber simply provides some energy for the ski to naturally pop back to its "neutral" state when pressure is released from a turn.
Some powder skis have no camber but they feel dead on hard snow with little rebound from the turn.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
But surely, @Haggis_Trap, the neutral state could be flat? And surely some of the pop comes from the unwinding of torsion?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Old Fartbag,
Quote:
I use Atomic Beta Ride 11.20s, which were considered a wide Freeride ski back in 03, with their 70mm under foot.....I think something with a 95mm waist and a Rockered tip and tail would be much easier Off, but much less agile On
I used to have a pair of those. I went from them to a pair of 90mm Völkl Mantras (at 191 length), and now ski on Völkl RTM 81 ( at 184 length ). The RTM is slightly rockered, and is billed as 'all mountain'. I can say that it's fantastic ski on and off piste, in every way as easy to ski in typical heavy euro-pow as the Mantras were, but with incredible grip on hard & icy pistes. So I'm fairly sure the rocker has beneficial effects off piste, and is at least not detrimental on piste.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I'm no engineer, but I believe the Camber allows extra pressure at tip and tail (useful for starting and finishing the turn) and when pushed into reverse camber, literally springs you into the next turn. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.
Pretty much, that's it! However the rebound also has a lot do do with the materials used and the relative flex of the ski, if you had a flat cambered ski with inappropriate materials and super stiff they would feel pretty dead to your average skier.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
under a new name wrote:
But surely, @Haggis_Trap, the neutral state could be flat? And surely some of the pop comes from the unwinding of torsion?
Giving the ski camber is what provides the energy for ski to pop back into shape (one you stop applying pressure).
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
extra pressure at tip and tail
OK, that sounds plausible.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
under a new name wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes,
Quote:
Almost any piste ski with some tip rocker will outperform an Atomic Betaride from 15+ years ago though.
Why??
A design which better blends materials & shape, more torsional stiffness in a wider ski, probably wood core rather than whatever foam monstrosity was in those Atomic "channels". I recntly mounted up a very highly regarded ski from a generation ago and unfortunately found that the shape particularly in the long flat stiff tail did it no favours in terms of versatility compared to almost any modern offering I've been on.
@Dave of the Marmottes, for on piste performance I am unconvinced. Although, I don't think I ever tried the Betaride. It may be that any performance piste ski from a generation ago (with a wood core) would have outperformed it.
I am still not at all convinced by any arguments for rockered piste skis. Other than making them ski shorter and so why not just make them shorter.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@under a new name, BetaRide was a good ski for the first two seasons, then felt like a damp sponge on my feet. Terrible. Absolutely no spring at all. I would never consider using a foam core again.
With my current RTMs I don't see any particular advantage to the rocker on piste, but have been very pleasantly surprised by how well they float off piste. Better than the Mantras in fact. And of course charge through crud like it isn't there...
On piste I am reasonably convinced that it's all marketing puff...
Off piste maybe not so much.
I don't really understand the current trend for using skis above 80mm as the weapon of choice, if staying On Piste most of the time....unless the ski shops and marketing machines are pushing them as the latest "must have" thing to have on your feet.
A lot of it has come out of modern skiing where more people find it a lot easier to ski in an up right stance, I personally prefer to really drive the tips of most skis and even my freeride sticks (PM Gear Bro's) are full camber but with a flex that allows them to bend when in the softer stuff as required.
I think 90mm is the max for a 'piste ski' my piste quiver has changed over the last few years and its now where I'm happy with it, going form FIS GS skis to Fischer Watea 84's (good but a bit too soft on the hardest stuff), The race stock I could ski anywhere but they were always a bit of a compromise. I now have Kastle MX88's which retain all the bits of the GS ski I loved and all the bits of the Watea 84 I loved.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@lordf, until yesterday I skied Mantras (98mm) most of the time. Some days very much on piste, most of the time.
But I don't think they make piste skiing easier and if I was restricted to piste or at an earlier stage of learning I am convinced I'd want something between 70mm and 80mm.
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@skimastaaah, yeah, for an aspiring or inter- intermediate I think they'd work well.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Thank you all for your replies...some of it conjecture; some of it experience; all of it interesting.
So pulling it all together, here are my thoughts so far:
I do believe that a Full Camber plays an important part of ski design.
- It is the "suspension" of the ski which contibutes to rebound...though the unwinding of the "torsional twist" can also slingshot you into a turn. I think it depends on how you are using the ski.
- It maximises edge contact and grip along it's entire length, by actively pushing the edge into the snow (this wouldn't happen without any camber)
- Offers a high level of shovel pressure
- More control on hard pistes and slow speeds.
I do believe that a case can be made for avoiding a Rocker, if one has a very narrow use ie. High speed carving, with max control on hard pistes. Outside that, choose the Rocker that suits the type of skiing that you usually do.
How many brands even sell a Fully Cambered ski...I suspect you would need to look to the likes of Stockl.
FWIW. I find my BetaRide 11.20s have near GS level of stability and grip....fantastic for medium/long turns and quite serviceable for short. I quite like a ski with a tail that isn't too wide (on piste), as it doesn't lock me into a carve and allows more versatility if wanting to use a degree of skidding.
Ideally though, I would like a wider shovel and a bit more width under foot when off piste.
I must make it my business to find out just how big a gap there is (on piste) between the best of what 2003 could offer and current models. There is no doubt in my mind that Off Piste, there is no comparison.....I even noticed this when I hired some Salomon Lords a few years ago, which made skiing in a Blizzard, with a 1.5 ft of new snow on piste, much easier.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 15-03-16 8:31; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Old Fartbag, i still struggle to believe that a camber that can be conpressed between thumb and index finger to flat with a lever of somewhere around 1m and 0.8m or thereabouts can have a meaningful and material effect on rebound.
Like flicking a fly off my shirt.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And, also, the pop out a turn is not, I don't think, energy coming from the ski but rather momentum of the body.
Think about it, there's NoWay a ski could store that much energy.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, i still struggle to believe that a camber that can be conpressed between thumb and index finger to flat with a lever of somewhere around 1m and 0.8m or thereabouts can have a meaningful and material effect on rebound.
Like flicking a fly off my shirt.
What was it about the Rockered ski that you didn't like?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Whitedot preacher, full camber (6mm and quite stiff) and 112mm underfoot, great fun bouncing around in the deep and elsewhere. When I tried rockers they felt rather vague in comparison
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Nothing about the ski, just as an engineering concept for a piste ski it feels more like marketng than engineering.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
under a new name wrote:
And, also, the pop out a turn is not, I don't think, energy coming from the ski but rather momentum of the body.
Think about it, there's NoWay a ski could store that much energy.
Here is Warren Smith's take on it....there is a technique section on his website, where he talks about "Loading the Ski"
If you want to see how much energy a ski can store, all you need to do is hammer a slalom ski down a steep piste..and get it wrong. The backlash can literally through you into the air....you often see this in World Cup racing. My guilty pleasure are some Atomic SL11s, which can be quite a handful when pushed.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Old Fartbag, one of my great pleasures is getting it right with a pair of SLs and taking some good air off a perfectly flat slope.
But there is no way that I can calculate on earth that stores that energy in the ski.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sorry to be a pedant, but rockers are people who play music.
Rocker is 'a thing' not a technology or concept. It's the part that curves upwards, and the same name us used on things like surfboards and kayaks.
You can say 'rockered skis' or 'skis with rocker,' but 'I ski on rockers' would just be wrong.
Sorry to be douchy, it's just it makes me cringe like the scene in Gavin and Stacy where Brynn is describing the wonders of 'You Tube' and the internet.
@Old Fartbag, my biggest problem with his explanation is the suggestion that reverse camber is something that you have to seek.
Any ski with sidecut travelling sideways to any degree down a slope (assuming skier still on top of course) is in reverse camber.
It's how you manage it that's important, which didn't completely come across in that vid.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
clarky999 wrote:
Sorry to be a pedant, but rockers are people who play music.
Rocker is 'a thing' not a technology or concept. It's the part that curves upwards, and the same name us used on things like surfboards and kayaks.
You can say 'rockered skis' or 'skis with rocker,' but 'I ski on rockers' would just be wrong.
Sorry to be douchy, it's just it makes me cringe like the scene in Gavin and Stacy where Brynn is describing the wonders of 'You Tube' and the internet.
Now that I've found out that I'm a Gaper, it probably goes with the territory!
(but I do take your point)
After all it is free
After all it is free
My take on rocker: great and tbh essential on an offpiste ski, pointless but in moderation probably harmless in a piste ski.
After skiing skis with full camber, rockered tips/tails and cambered underfoot, flat camber with subtle tip/tail rocker, and full rocker, I'd say camber does make a difference to rebound. Materials and flex will have a big impact too, but cambered skis spring back noticeably more sharply after being deeply flexed.
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I went from X wing 10's to Scott 'the ski". Which has a front rocker, reasons were... Easier to turn at low speed, very easy to ski on piste,.. Easy on my damaged knee.. Also light to carry ( again helps the knee) they are a dream to ski on at high speed, ..very responsive, best skis ive ever used or owned..
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
yorkshirelad wrote:
I went from X wing 10's to Scott 'the ski". Which has a front rocker, reasons were... Easier to turn at low speed, very easy to ski on piste,.. Easy on my damaged knee.. Also light to carry ( again helps the knee) they are a dream to ski on at high speed, ..very responsive, best skis ive ever used or owned..
I've read nothing but good about them....and they are even half reasonable on moguls, apparently.
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