Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
👁 durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Safer Skiing Solo in the Backcountry?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
New study from Wilderness and and Environmental Medicine: http://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(15)00461-5/fulltext

Quote:
We calculated the relative risk of avalanche involvement with respect to group size for the first time by comparing accident data with data from in-field usage. The results suggest lower avalanche risk for people traveling alone or in groups of 2, and higher risk for groups of 4 or more people. The highest risk was found for groups of 6 or more people in both the Swiss and Italian datasets.

Our findings are in agreement with avalanche safety literature, which emphasizes increasing risk with increasing group size.5, 6, 7, 8 Harvey et al referred to 5 causes of increasing risk in large groups: 1) higher load on the snow cover, 2) increased probability to hit a weak spot in the snow cover, 3) slower decision making process of groups, 4) challenges in communication, and 5) high-risk appetite due to an increased but wrong sense of security (related to the risky shift effect [J.A.F. Stoner, unpublished data, 1961]).5 These factors are absent when someone travels alone in avalanche terrain, which may explain why we did not find higher risk in group size 1.


Of course that doesn't take into account other dangerous like breaking a leg etc, but does echo my personal feelings and experience.
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
i wonder if statistically you are less likely to break your leg or whatever on a solo ski tour also for similar reasons, less pressure on terrain choice, time to get help, self preservation etc.

Those points definitely make sense and i personally think no5 is one of the biggest issues in a group, though they are all very relevant.
snow conditions
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Would tend to agree with that, and that's why i don't like guided groups. Off course if your skiing glaciers then going solo is not a good idea, three is a better number.
snow conditions
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3485953/Avalanche-kills-director-avalanche-center-Oregon.html
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I know of very few people doing solo ski tours and I know a lot of people skiing in groups.

Stats you got to love them Wink
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
There's a thread on here from people who ride alone off piste - you'll likely find some of them also tour.

When I read "I don't like statistics" I tend to hear "I still think I'm right even if the evidence says I'm not".

The source data is quite specific to bits of Europe with strong traditional "guiding" cultures.


---
My personal prejudice (for which I have no evidence) is that guided parties have an inherent risk in that many people in them are not competent. Compared with a small group of experienced athletes, that seems likely to be more risky. By analogy "guided" caving parties are in my experience more risky than "self propelled" ones.

When I'm in a group... well, I'm worried about the other people. There are many perfectly nice people I would not ride off piste with. Some people aren't safe.
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
From The American Avalanche Association journal Fall 2004:

Quote:
We used the website: www.skirando.ch to analyse backcountry group size. We took a random sample of outings in the Northern Alps covering two periods, weekdays and weekends. The average size of a backcountry skiing group is 2.61 people, however there is significant difference between weekends (3.35, mode value: 2) and weekdays (2.07, mode value: 1). In both cases groups are about 17% female. During the weekend 14% of outings were by skiers alone, this figure rose to 33% during the week.

...
Quote:
Skiing off-piste alone is often regarded as a near suicidal activity. The SkiRando database shows that 14% of outings are by lone skiers at weekends, rising to 33% on weekdays, probably because fewer partners were available. The overall figure is 25%; but only 1 of the 24 avalanche fatalities involved a lone backcountry skier. It would seem that lone skiers take less risk than groups. Given the number of lone outings entered for popular routes such as the Chamchaude above Grenoble it is possible lone skiers favour well tracked routes that will be stabilised by skiing. The accident rates for lone skiers rise for off-piste incidents and falls. Crevassed and avalanche prone terrain are environments where skiers should never venture alone. Obviously the consequences of an accident for a lone skier are often severe.


--- https://www.rasc.ru/updown/updown053/analysis-2004.pdf

File this under the "Nothing New Under the Sun" department. To put it simply, the evidence shows that the majority solo ski tourers favour lower risk routes. A third of ski tours are by solo skiers in France on weekdays which statistically speaking, is quite significant. I can dig out information on the issues with group spacing for anyone interested. Group spacing is one of the major current avalanche education priorities for ski tourers.
snow conditions
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Fascinating stuff. Thank you both clarky999 and davidof, but i'm not sure we've answered the question: is it really Safer Skiing Solo in the Backcountry?
Certainly seems you are less likely to get caught in an avalanche, but as davidof's last quote states: "The accident rates for lone skiers rise for off-piste incidents and falls. ... Obviously the consequences of an accident for a lone skier are often severe."
So, less likely to get caught in an avalanche, but still could fall and get hurt, or suffer some other adverse health event (heart attack, asthma attack, stroke, whatever), and without someone to get help you are right stuffed. Even with mobile phone or walkie-talkie: they don't work everywhere.
Swings and roundabouts . . . Puzzled
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Jonpim wrote:
So, less likely to get caught in an avalanche, but still could fall and get hurt, or suffer some other adverse health event (heart attack, asthma attack, stroke, whatever), and without someone to get help you are right stuffed. Even with mobile phone or walkie-talkie: they don't work everywhere. Swings and roundabouts . . . Puzzled


The emergency medical conditions you listed would be just as dire in the arse end of nowhere, even if buddied up, unless of course your buddy was a paramedic and carrying their emergency kit.

Could solo skiers just be safer because on average, they are simply more experienced/competent than a proportion of the people who would only feel safe in the company of more experienced/competent skiers (thus don't ski alone) ?
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
[quote="moffatross"]
Jonpim wrote:


Could solo skiers just be safer because on average, they are simply more experienced/competent than a proportion of the people who would only feel safe in the company of more experienced/competent skiers (thus don't ski alone) ?


That must be one factor. Being experienced and alone they often travel quickly which makes timings easier to manage.
latest report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
davidof wrote:
moffatross wrote:


Could solo skiers just be safer because on average, they are simply more experienced/competent than a proportion of the people who would only feel safe in the company of more experienced/competent skiers (thus don't ski alone) ?


That must be one factor. Being experienced and alone they often travel quickly which makes timings easier to manage.


And probably fitter too, and more used to self-reliance in route choices.
ski holidays
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Similar discussion here:

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=122312
snow report
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've seen plently of reports about unfit Alpine skiers having heart attacks but not Ski tourers. Ski tourers are generally fit people, not one week skiing wonders.

If I ski tour alone I'll take the less risky routes both up and down.

Sometimes some Ski touring groups are just far too big, they don't leave enough space between them on risky terrain. When skiing down they stop where the avalanche could sweep them away. They generally take longer (go at the pace of the slowest) so are on the hill later in the day when the sun warms up the snow and makes it more risky. I guess compared to your dedicated, top fit ski tourer who gets up before the crack of dawn, probably has more experience than the group average, who moves quickly then the group is most likely more risky.


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 15-03-16 16:04; edited 1 time in total
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Jonpim wrote:
Fascinating stuff. Thank you both clarky999 and davidof, but i'm not sure we've answered the question: is it really Safer Skiing Solo in the Backcountry?
Certainly seems you are less likely to get caught in an avalanche, but as davidof's last quote states: "The accident rates for lone skiers rise for off-piste incidents and falls. ... Obviously the consequences of an accident for a lone skier are often severe."
So, less likely to get caught in an avalanche, but still could fall and get hurt, or suffer some other adverse health event (heart attack, asthma attack, stroke, whatever), and without someone to get help you are right stuffed. Even with mobile phone or walkie-talkie: they don't work everywhere.
Swings and roundabouts . . . Puzzled


To be honest I don't think you can ever get a general answer, as it will always be specific to the individual making the decision and their ability/experience/risk tolerance.

Davidoff is obviously right that it's nothing new, and he and Moffatross make excellent points as to why it might be the case. I just find the topic interesting, especially when the general consensus is simply that soloing is dangerous/reckless.

What I would be interested to hear/learn/talk more about, is how much of the 'improved avalanche safety' (for want of a better term) is simply down to the lesser load on the snowpack compared to potential for better/more cautious decision making and route selection. Particularly in 'wild' or less travelled terrain (i.e. not routes so popular that they're basically a bump field the day after snow and slabs have no chance to form).
snow conditions
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I'm no ski tourer but being out alone in the hills, or on the sea, or wherever, is nothing new and until recently there would have been no question of being able to call for help. Modern communication (including now, a neighbour was telling me, a small EPIRB which can be carried anywhere) has made being out alone safer. Not too many years ago someone breaking their leg towards the end of a cold day in the Brecon Beacons was in greater danger than a well equipped ski tourer in the Alpine back country today. But they would not have been criticised as reckless or stupid. People should not delude themselves about risk but shouldn't be dissuaded from taking risks, clear-sighted, on their own responsibility.
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I believe the notion of not traveling alone in the wilderness (winter or summer) has to do with minor injuries turning major due to no means of summoning help.

A broken leg in the middle of summer is not a life threatening injury, if there's someone else in the party to walk out to bring help. Even in the winter, a properly prepared party with sufficient gear can keep the injured alive while awaiting for rescue.

But a lone traveler with a broken leg could potentially starve or die of infection due to how long the it takes for the traveler to be discovered or crawl out to civilization
latest report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
abc wrote:


But a lone traveler with a broken leg could potentially starve or die of infection due to how long the it takes for the traveler to be discovered or crawl out to civilization


About 5 years ago a hunter stumbled upon the skeleton of a man in the woods above le Tour. He was resting against a log. One hand holding an ankle, the other an old Nokia 5110 mobile phone. Judging by his clothes and his remains he had been there for some considerable time. The police identified the victim as a Belgium walker they'd taken a call from two years previously. He'd left the trail to head down through the woods and got lost, stumbled and hurt his ankle. His phone battery died before they could located him. Despite being localized to a 10x10km search area he was never found, until a hunter stumbled upon him.

They say it wouldn't happen now due to the density and precision of the cell network in the area. They obviously haven't tried Free!

Amazingly they charged the Nokia and it still worked!
snow report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Skullie a personal locator beacon narrows down the search area a great deal and as it isn't activated till you're in trouble, will transmit for ages. Mobile phones are not the answer. Coastguards in the UK warn against relying on them for rescue at sea, even in close coastal waters.
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
I'm not a physicist but if you have a group of skiers stopping one below the other that has to increase the chances of someone stopping on a weak spot. And then there is the combined weight across the hill. And perhaps groups stop more often to stay together.
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Being on your own may reduce your chance of being caught in an avalanche but your only hope of live rescue is your buddies digging you out.
snow report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Gordyjh wrote:
Being on your own may reduce your chance of being caught in an avalanche but your only hope of live rescue is your buddies digging you out.


Exactly this.

Also having skied in many guided groups over the years it has always struck me that the default skiing protocol should be 25m apart at all times when under way. I mean why wait until you think you're in ava terrain to revert to this formation, far better imho that the protocol is just adhered to as a habit. This should especially be the case imho, since avalanche avoidance is only based on a probability based risk assessment scheme anyway i.e. it is far from an exact science, so caution pays.
snow conditions



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy