 Poster: A snowHead
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I think she has a point, her bindings didn't release when they should have. When you hire equipment, you expect it to be set up correctly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Gyro wrote: |
| I think she has a point, her bindings didn't release when they should have. When you hire equipment, you expect it to be set up correctly. |
We don't know that her bindings didn't release when they should have.
Remember that bindings work on the principle that your limbs/ligaments can take a high pressure for a fraction of a second. But when you have a slow fall, it is possible that the pressure will be much less, but for much longer, and that longer period of loswer pressure can do a lot of damage, and it is very difficult (maybe impossible) to have bindings set so that they will release in that situation without them pre-releasing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If she screws any amount of "compensation" out of this, she's no numpty. Scheming unprincipled bitch, possibly.
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| under a new name wrote: |
Hmm, I won't make any claims I can't back up. However, the Sunday Times Ski Guide, that bible to those that learned in the 70s had a chapter or two on kit, what to look for and how it worked.
And it was explained on Blue Peter when Peter Purves went skiing.. |
Unfortunately my parents did not buy The Sunday Times, and I must have missed that episode of Blue Peter ( damn ).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| If she screws any amount of "compensation" out of this, she's no numpty. Scheming unprincipled bitch, possibly. |
WOW, a bit strong.
"Scheming" implies she planned it? really? did you see her injury? do you honestly think she did it deliberately?
"Unprincipled" on what grounds? If you hired a car and half a mile down the road the wheel fell off causing you to crash and sustain injuries, would you not be looking for compensation? I think you probably would......or are you too principled to do that?
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@alex_heney, exactly. In January my friend (solid piste skier) broke his leg pretty badly in a slow turning fall (flat light warm, hit a lump of soft but heavy snow). No complaints, just bad luck.
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| Quote: |
"Scheming" implies she planned it?
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Nonsense. It implies that, having been injured, she was looking to make a bit of money out of it.
As pointed out above, more than once, we have absolutely no way of knowing that her accident was remotely akin to having a wheel fall off a hired car. Plenty of skiers, including experienced skiers, with their bindings set exactly right, bust their ACLs etc. Slow speed falls, particularly in women with weak leg muscles, present a particularly high risk.
And I only said "possibly". Personally, I'd rather be a scheming bitch than a numpty. 
If I hired a car and a wheel fell off and I was injured I'd look for compensation commensurate with the losses I'd suffered, but yes, I'd be too principled to try to get compensation for an accident which was my fault, or just "one of those things". That would be fraud.
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@alex_heney, Thanks for that clarification.
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@pam w, well said Pam. Clearly we dont actually know if the hire shop/TO were in some way at fault but these accidents do happen. In fact Chemmy A has just busted her ACL doing absolutely bug all. I'd suggest rather than bindings beginners just have velcro on the bottom of their trainers to attach themselves to their planks. Probably safer that way.
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| Gyro wrote: |
| "Unprincipled" on what grounds? If you hired a car and half a mile down the road the wheel fell off causing you to crash and sustain injuries, would you not be looking for compensation? I think you probably would......or are you too principled to do that? |
No a bad analogy, but don't think it's quite a parallel. It's more like, hired a car and hit a kerb, causing the wheel to fall off, car to crash and injuries sustained.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wouldn't an expert have to examine the skis and determine if the binding settings were totally wrong for a beginner? If yes (e.g. they were set for an expert) then maybe not a numpty. If they were right, and its just there is always a risk they might not release in general in certain twisting scenarios then its an inherent risk.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Perhaps TTT should get back and offer some advice.
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| pam w wrote: |
If I hired a car and a wheel fell off and I was injured I'd look for compensation commensurate with the losses I'd suffered, but yes, I'd be too principled to try to get compensation for an accident which was my fault, or just "one of those things". That would be fraud. |
Point being, we don't know what the bindings were set at, or even the TO had collected weight height information to facilitate the hire shop to set the binding correctly.
So it's not clear who's at fault just yet. Or if there's any evident left that can help determine the source of the fault.
It's not for us to judge whether she should or should not go ahead to seek compensation.
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
If I hired a car and a wheel fell off and I was injured I'd look for compensation commensurate with the losses I'd suffered, but yes, I'd be too principled to try to get compensation for an accident which was my fault, or just "one of those things". That would be fraud. |
Point being, we don't know what the bindings were set at, or even the TO had collected weight height information to facilitate the hire shop to set the binding correctly.
So it's not clear who's at fault just yet. Or if there's any evident left that can help determine the source of the fault.
It's not for us to judge whether she should or should not go ahead to seek compensation. |
+1
If the bindings were set incorrectly or faulty and it can be proven either from inspection of the actual skis/bindings and/or lack of proper shop procedures then she isn't a numpty to go after them. It should all come out in the wash. If everything was done properly by the TO/hire shop then she shouldn't win the case. My money is on the Bulgarian hire shop not having any meaningful procedure for setting the bindings and the TO not caring about it. I also wonder if her insurance company advised her to make a claim?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We had a client last winter who had a complicated/messy ankle break which will have long term complications, after a fall where the bindings didn't release.
We heard his ESF coach looked at the bindings while waiting for the blood wagon, and was furious with what he saw >> took them straight to the police as evidence.
For my first trip each winter, I deduct 4kgs to the weight I tell the rental shop guy I am, so the bindings are set on the looser side of correct. I'm not talented enough for impressive skiing to release my boots - only for a lazy screw up to do it, when I really want them to just come off.
In three decades of skiing, I've only ever lost a ski wrongly once while running them like this... and my first coach always told me to practice with one foot in the air anyway... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
If I hired a car and a wheel fell off and I was injured I'd look for compensation commensurate with the losses I'd suffered, but yes, I'd be too principled to try to get compensation for an accident which was my fault, or just "one of those things". That would be fraud. |
Point being, we don't know what the bindings were set at, or even the TO had collected weight height information to facilitate the hire shop to set the binding correctly.
So it's not clear who's at fault just yet. Or if there's any evident left that can help determine the source of the fault.
It's not for us to judge whether she should or should not go ahead to seek compensation. |
+1
If the bindings were set incorrectly or faulty and it can be proven either from inspection of the actual skis/bindings and/or lack of proper shop procedures then she isn't a numpty to go after them. It should all come out in the wash. If everything was done properly by the TO/hire shop then she shouldn't win the case. My money is on the Bulgarian hire shop not having any meaningful procedure for setting the bindings and the TO not caring about it. I also wonder if her insurance company advised her to make a claim? |
I was skiing in Bulgaria this January and when being fitted with boots,skis etc I found the care to get the right settings very professional. When their computer had produced the DIN setting I was asked to sign a paper confirming this was the correct DIN setting and listed the info I had given them. I believe that most Bulgarian hire shops do have sensible procedures in place to make sure settings are correct. As has been stated earlier in this thread correctly set bindings may not release if the collision takes place at very slow speeds.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry but I think she's pathetic and what a sloppy piece of journalism, what does being 'happily married' have do with it. I only hope that being brought down the slope in a tractor was cheaper than a blood wagon.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Swissie wrote: |
Sorry but I think she's pathetic
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Why?
What assumptions are you making about facts we don't know (or maybe you know more about it than the rest of us)?
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and what a sloppy piece of journalism, what does being 'happily married' have do with it.
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Nothing at all, of course. But most journalists add in all sorts of unnecessary detail like that, just to pad out the story. Though it did seem rather short on the significant detail, so I would agree it looked pretty sloppy.
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I only hope that being brought down the slope in a tractor was cheaper than a blood wagon. |
Again, why?
Regardless of whether you think she should be trying to claim any compensation or not, the simple fact is that she was injured significantly. I would hope and expect she was insured, so it is pretty irrelevant what the costs of getting her off the mountain were.
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@Swissie, to be fair the 'happily married' thing was a quote from the lawyer, no doubt hamming it up a bit. Also it's a local news website, they ain't going for no Pulitzer at the best of times.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Rabbie wrote: |
I was skiing in Bulgaria this January and when being fitted with boots,skis etc I found the care to get the right settings very professional. When their computer had produced the DIN setting I was asked to sign a paper confirming this was the correct DIN setting and listed the info I had given them. I believe that most Bulgarian hire shops do have sensible procedures in place to make sure settings are correct. As has been stated earlier in this thread correctly set bindings may not release if the collision takes place at very slow speeds. |
Well not this one obviously:-
| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
I first skied in Bulgaria. It was only when I went to the snow dome the next year that I discovered bindings should be adjusted for each skier. We were just handed skis, with no questions about weight etc and no adjustments to the bindings.
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The one you went to sounds good and that's what I expect this case will come down to i.e. did the shop follow the correct procedure in setting up her bindings?
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@SnoodyMcFlude,
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@SnoodyMcFlude,
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to be fair the 'happily married' thing was a quote from the lawyer
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Fair enough, but given the competition getting a journalistic post I'd still expect better, I spent years dealing with the local press and I swear it aged me by 10 years
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Quote - "It is alleged the skis were bound too tightly to her boots". It is clear the journalist or, if this is a quote from the legal action, the lawyer does not understand the mechanics of skis and binding and how boots are attached. So including "happily married" is not really very surprising in the reporting of this matter.
I am very sorry for her that she suffered such a significant injury but the article also says she crossed her skis, if this is so then there would already be some strain on the knees and it wouldnt take much to turn this into an injury. I have fallen and not been able to get my skis off due to the position I have fallen in but later the same settings, without adjustment, have released me. Ski bindings and their settings are not an infallible solution to avoiding injury.
I was listening to a radio programme yesterday in which an orthopaedic surgeon was saying that he has seen a significant increase in the number of skiing injuries in recent years and that he understands one in seventy skiiers suffer an injury each year. With the improvement in modern bindings breakages are now less common but ligament damage is the main injury which requires surgical intervention.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A quick google suggests that all these reports are derivative of some original which I can't find. They repeat the same elementary error precisely. So there's no actual "reporting" here, it's just internet dweebs copying text from each other. It's a bubble of bullsit. Nothing new there, then.
Worse, the "solicitors" looks like a very dubious organisation - certainly ambulance chasers, with all sorts of "easy ways to pay". If I meet those guys in court they'd probably be on the other side, I'd guess. They turn over about £200,000,000 a year in the UK.
They have a "winter safety" website, which is probably what this is all about. You can google it, but perhaps it's best not to give them the traffic. In any case, it completely fails to mention the risk which they claim to be litigating for here. I'd say that they are probably better at chasing ambulances than "winter sports safety". I don't think my sport needs these people.
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Irwin Mitchell are in fact a well renowned law firm which has grown enormously through mergers with other firms over the last fiftenn ears or so. Yes they do have a large personal injury following but they offer the whole gamut of legal services and they have offices all over the UK and thousands of employees. From my perspective as an ex lawyer I would prefer to have to have experienced personal injury lawyers on my side in the event of a real personal injury claim than not.
What does concern me is the increasingly litigious attitude we have in this country and which follows the US in this respect. I would still say it is likely this lady's injury was in line with so many others - it was an accident which arose while she was doing an inherently risky activity. It would be impossible to believe that all the ACL and other ligament injuries being suffered by skiers are down to badly set bindings! It is to be hoped that the tour operators lawyers/insurers will fight this case vigorously and win because the alternative is that a high proportion of other ligament injured skiers will pursue the same basis for action again whomever they hired their equipment from or who last serviced their equipment or even (tongue in cheek) the tour operator in whose chalet or hotel ski room their skis were left in overnight and where "someone" must have fiddled with their bindings!!! It goes on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My bro took his skis in for a service in Whistler once and because apparently they hadn't filled in the DIN setting bit of the form (despite the service being nothing to do with the bindings) they cranked them down to 1. He was mightily pissed off when they came off virtually every turn ( & had he started the day by tackling Saudan's or the gems bowl - mighty dangerous in its own right).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Irwin Mitchell's site has some lovely client stories. Seems they have successfully gone after operators for perceived failings by instructors , e.g. taking clients on slopes they found too difficult.
The way this is going instructors are going to have to start keeping written evidence of the first morning ski school grading session!
Leeches.
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These injuries can result from chair-lifts being located in the wrong place
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wtf?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
taking clients on slopes they found too difficult.
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My father was, long ago, manager of the AA office in Cardiff. He was called down to Reception one day to deal with an irate lady who wanted to know how to lodge a complaint about having failed her driving test (the AA in those days used to do some testing for people with foreign licences and this lady was from Kenya, where she probably thought mowing down a few pedestrians now and then was OK, as long as they were black).
The basis of her complaint was that the red light she'd driven through had been on a road she'd never been on before. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I am not one who usually rushes to the defence of the Legal Profession, to be honest they are pretty good at looking after themselves. But Irwin Mitchell are a reputable company in my opinion. A few years back I was knocked off my bicycle whilst riding to work and I broke my neck (well documented on this site). Luckily I made a full recovery but due to my employment contract and the behaviour of the driver's insurance company I decided to take advice from them. They were professional in all of their dealings with me and actually the largest sum of money went to my employer for the salary they continued to pay me and the cost of employing a Locum Consultant to do my work.
Irwin Mitchell do a lot of work for clients with spinal injuries. They are also involved with the charities which support them, one such charity being Aspire. To be honest if you are less lucky than I was you will really be in need of a significant settlement to continue living an independant life.
Having said all that I do not agree with the claim being made in this case based on the facts of this case as they have been presented here.
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Poster: A snowHead
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These type of things annoy me and put all the insurance premiums up. She has got injured (pretty badly) doing a dangerous sport through her own error. Just need to accept it and get on with it. Even if the din setting was incorrect (far from convinced) if it came to a argument who is to say she never changed it herself. The shop could easily say we set it right so she must have changed it herself. No way of proving this in my opinion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Unfortunately (for the shop/operator) there is no need to prove the din was incorrect. It is up to the shop to provide documentary evidence that they set it correctly. And there will be gaps, lawyers will be asking questions such as:
"Please provide documentary evidence of the service and testing of these bindings for 12 months prior and six months post incident"
"Provide details of qualifications and training for service, testing, and fitting technicians"
"Provide relevant calibration certificate for binding release testing machine"
Etc
In the absence of a complete paper trail the insurers will settle to avoid the potential costs in court. In effect they are guilty unless they can prove themselves innocent.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kerb wrote: |
Unfortunately (for the shop/operator) there is no need to prove the din was incorrect. It is up to the shop to provide documentary evidence that they set it correctly. And there will be gaps, lawyers will be asking questions such as:
"Please provide documentary evidence of the service and testing of these bindings for 12 months prior and six months post incident"
"Provide details of qualifications and training for service, testing, and fitting technicians"
"Provide relevant calibration certificate for binding release testing machine"
Etc
In the absence of a complete paper trail the insurers will settle to avoid the potential costs in court. In effect they are guilty unless they can prove themselves innocent. |
The lawyers can ask all they like.
The shop do not have to prove they were not negligent, the customer has to prove (on balance of probabilities in a civil case) that they were.
I am sure the shop will be able to provide evidence of qualifications of their technicians, and required certification of machinery. And if they can show some reasonable evidence of their normal procedures for determination of settings, then it would be up to the customer to show that those weren't followed.
But right up front, unless there is some evidence of what the bindings were set to, she is unlikely to have much of a case.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
The lawyers can ask all they like.
The shop do not have to prove they were not negligent, the customer has to prove (on balance of probabilities in a civil case) that they were.
I am sure the shop will be able to provide evidence of qualifications of their technicians, and required certification of machinery. And if they can show some reasonable evidence of their normal procedures for determination of settings, then it would be up to the customer to show that those weren't followed. |
It will depend very much on the shop's systems. Do they have documentary evidence of which technician actually adjusted the skis on that day? All the lawyers need to do is sow enough doubt and the insurers will settle.
| alex_heney wrote: |
But right up front, unless there is some evidence of what the bindings were set to, she is unlikely to have much of a case. |
In my experience the operator will have to provide evidence the shop set dins correctly, or at least prove procedures are sound and followed, otherwise insurers will settle.
Plaintiff possibly doesn't even know what dins they had and case is just a fishing exercise by the lawyers, after all they have nothing to lose. Indeed the newspaper report feels rather like an 'advertisement feature' to drum up further business.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kerb wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
The lawyers can ask all they like.
The shop do not have to prove they were not negligent, the customer has to prove (on balance of probabilities in a civil case) that they were.
I am sure the shop will be able to provide evidence of qualifications of their technicians, and required certification of machinery. And if they can show some reasonable evidence of their normal procedures for determination of settings, then it would be up to the customer to show that those weren't followed. |
It will depend very much on the shop's systems. Do they have documentary evidence of which technician actually adjusted the skis on that day? All the lawyers need to do is sow enough doubt and the insurers will settle.
| alex_heney wrote: |
But right up front, unless there is some evidence of what the bindings were set to, she is unlikely to have much of a case. |
In my experience the operator will have to provide evidence the shop set dins correctly, or at least prove procedures are sound and followed, otherwise insurers will settle.
Plaintiff possibly doesn't even know what dins they had and case is just a fishing exercise by the lawyers, after all they have nothing to lose. Indeed the newspaper report feels rather like an 'advertisement feature' to drum up further business. |
It is certainly possible that the insurers would settle out of court, but I was discussing (and I thought you were) what the requirements would be to win if it came to court.
What the insurers might decide to do before that stage is much harder to predict.
Although I'm not even sure that insurers will be involved, if it is the TO she is suing. But then the TO could settle just as insurers might have.
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Alex, you are of course totally correct regarding what would be required in court, we were talking a slightly crossed purposes.
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The shop don't have to prove anything because she's not suing them, her case is with the TO. I believe the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the plaintiff, so I imagine it's not simple in proving that her injury was negligent on their part.
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Of course her case is against the TO. A rental shop in Bulgaria is (& feels) well insulated from the PR effects of a threatened legal action, the TO on the other hand may well settle even if they know they would win in court.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How can she prove the binding were set too high? At what point would a beginner know if they were or were not? This sounds like post event advice from a "expert"
If they were set at 7 , that would be in the right zone , but maybe they should have been set at 3 as a brand new beginner.
So unless the skis were examined on the slope by a passing expert, before anyone could tamper with the DIN settings who is to say the shop set them, and when is to high to high? If they were set at 10 or more and this can be proved fair enough.
I myself damaged my ACL with high DIN, settings, agreed by me.
More scary was a ski coming off on the glacier in Tignes because it had been set very low.
Nina Harrison might be a travel specialist she spent a month on job experience with " the International Travel Litigation department" but she is also a paralegal.
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| blahblahblah wrote: |
How can she prove the binding were set too high? At what point would a beginner know if they were or were not? This sounds like post event advice from a "expert"
If they were set at 7 , that would be in the right zone , but maybe they should have been set at 3 as a brand new beginner.
So unless the skis were examined on the slope by a passing expert, before anyone could tamper with the DIN settings who is to say the shop set them, and when is to high to high? If they were set at 10 or more and this can be proved fair enough.
I myself damaged my ACL with high DIN, settings, agreed by me.
More scary was a ski coming off on the glacier in Tignes because it had been set very low.
Nina Harrison might be a travel specialist she spent a month on job experience with " the International Travel Litigation department" but she is also a paralegal. |
Well to start off with correct binding DIN settings are not ambiguous, they are set off a specific chart based on a few simple parameters. That's why reputable hire shops make you fill in a form and sign that the info you gave them is correct. Their technicians will also have a sign-off procedure to check they were set correctly and the best shops put the skis on a DIN testing machine to verify that they do actually release at the correct setting - the nominal DIN setting on the binding window can be significantly wrong and can be compensated on the testing machine. In this case if the hire shop can prove best practice then they shouldn't have anything to worry about. But if their procedures are not up to scratch then I guess they might well lose. Even if the bindings were set correctly, you can still get a serious injury, especially in a low speed twisting fall. But I reckon there is a reasonable possibility that the bindings were set wrong - it wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. I bought a pair of skis from a well known shop a couple of years ago and despite having good procedures in place, they still managed to totally screw up both the DIN settings and boot sole length.
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FAQ
