 Poster: A snowHead
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Now that Dave has got his deal with Europe, there's half a chance the swivel eyed zenophopes might get there way. If they do I cannot imagine the likes of the French are going to tolerate the status quo in the mountains for too long, before things like workers on uk pay and conditions etc start to unravel. Does anyone have any idea where we'll be heading?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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oh the humanity, Chalet cos having to pay a living wage and not being able to undercut local businesses with unfair competition.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| oh the humanity, Chalet cos having to pay a living wage and not being able to undercut local businesses with unfair competition. |
Yep.
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Yip : It is a very valid point that if we exit the EU then the traditional chalet holiday as we know it is likely finished.
Indeed most UK chalet operators have already pulled out of Switzerland since the swiss changed their local working laws (banning UK contracts to be used for employees in CH).
Of course you can argue that Chalet firms having to pay a higher wage is a good thing.
However that simply puts the cost of holidays up as well and makes the whole model uneconomic.
FWIW : I worked as a "chalet slave" in my younger years. It is great way for young kids to do a season - so long as you expect to get paid in ski time.
No one does a chalet season to make money. As a 20 year old kid washing dishes in Val D'Isere (2001/2) I doubt that I would have found an easier or more economically way to ski so much. Had a great time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd be happy if uk chalet companies were forced to pay me a proper wage! Not sure it'll be as simple as that though.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
FWIW : I worked as a "chalet slave" in my younger years. It is great way for young kids to do a season - so long as you expect to get paid in ski time.
No one does a chalet season to make money. As a 20 year old kid washing dishes in Val D'Isere (2001/2) I doubt that I would have found an easier or more economically way to ski so much. Had a great time. |
+1,000,000
Great for anyone of any age going in with their eyes & mind open.
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We currently have two kids working for TOs in France, both receive approx. 100Euro per week in wages. How many kids can live independently of their parents in the UK and have £65 disposable at the end of each week?
Then there's the 6.5 hours of skiing 6 days a week. Slavery doesn't sound so bad to me. 
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Lucky them, my average week is 60hrs a week for 130 quid, with food lift pass and board. When you do the maths it still works out to be a better lifestyle than earning minimum wage in the uk and paying rent!
Personally I'd be happy keeping things as they are
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Obviously it's great that they take on people who have relatively little experience and allow them to ski lots, but it's completely flaunting French law. My employer is pretty careful not to let us go over 35 hours, we get paid for all the time we do and that's how all the French employers seem to do it as well. It seems incredibly bizarre to have such an advantageous double-standard when a lot of French employers are struggling to make ends meet as it is.
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In a different thread someone mentioned that they had heard that Crystal had doubles their staff wages ahead of next year's rule changes. Does anyone have any more info on this?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I know that many people quite like it, and I was complicit in its popularising many years ago, but these days the idea of trying to recreate the upper-middle class houseparty of the 1930's on snow seems remarkably peculiar...
And I suspect there are more important consequences of a Brexit than the demise of the chalet girl.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Didn't the traditional British chalet holiday exist before free movement of EU workers (think it was '92)?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 20-02-16 13:05; edited 2 times in total
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I am not sure where this is all coming from. A google enquiry indicates that the minimum wage for over 17 year olds in France is approximately £83 per week. Chalet staff get board and accommodation and skis, passes etc on top of their wages. They should be protected by the working time regs which should limit their hours to 48 per week. I would suggest that most chalet staff are probably being paid and living within the requirements of French law. They do work odd hours and start relatively early but their split shifts, 7.30 until around 11.00 then return to chalet around 5.30 ish until around 9.00) together with a day off each week should bring them just within the working time regs with a full day off each week. I think the situation is probably about as it should be and cant see why Brexit would bring about change unless the continental countries brought in regs to make it difficult for British youngsters to work in this type of situation. But why would they unless there is an overwhelming demand for this type of work from French youngsters who are being squeezed out by Brits working for British businesses. The closure of reduction of chalet holidays would cause significant losses to many many towns and villages in the Alps. Someone tell me if I have missed something here?
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You know it makes sense.
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| FFIRMIN wrote: |
| I am not sure where this is all coming from. A google enquiry indicates that the minimum wage for over 17 year olds in France is approximately £83 per week. |
1 445,38 euros / month based on a 35 hr week. Employer's charges will also be higher.
I'm not personally in favour of a minimum wage or maximum hours except where safety is concerned but I'm not in favour if gaming the system either.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've made Mr NN get his Irish citizenship and passport process underway in case a BREXIT causes any problems for us living/ working here.
I've also been a 'chalet slave' and felt better rewarded overall than my first London job!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
if we exit the EU then the traditional chalet holiday as we know it is likely finished.
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best argument I've heard for Brexit yet.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes davidof what you have said is in line with what I found, 445 euros is around £343 so broadly speaking my figures were in the ball park. I am not sure what you mean by "gaming the system" as far as I can see English TOs with chalets pay their staff roughly the basic wage and then there are the perks of no cost of living, skiing etc expenses and pretty reasonable opportunities to undertake personal activities. I dont think anyone think chalet staff have an easy job but its not that difficult and is a great way for young lively folk to go off learn a bit about themselves and how the world works, work hard, play hard and then move on with their lives.
As for holidays being a lot more expensive if chalets were withdrawn, I am not sure how true that is. Chalets are usually fairly basic accommodation with good wholesome but not fancy food, uually with wine included. There are lots of 2 and even 3* hotels in the mountains which offer not dissimilar accommodation and food at fairly reasonable costs where a trip would probably not cost much more than a basic chalet and certainly some chalets rated as "luxury" are more expensive than many hotels.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I can't stand Chalet holidays personally so not that fussed about losing them. I hope we don't leave the EU though that would be madness.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The date has been set for 23rd June. So we'll find out quite soon. Issues go way beyond chalet holidays. I'm now hoping to be well informed by either side of the in out argument, but I'm not holding my breath.
In the short term I reckon the pound could take a hammering.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@FFIRMIN, that's 1,445.38 euros!
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 20-02-16 13:52; edited 1 time in total
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| Daleskier wrote: |
| ...there's half a chance the swivel eyed zenophopes might get there way. |
I'll have to meditate on that one.......
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| Quote: |
Chalets are usually fairly basic accommodation with good wholesome but not fancy food, uually with wine included.
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Nope. There are some exceptionally luxurious chalets which are certainly more expensive than top hotels but often provide a lot more. "Catered chalets" are a huge range.
And British chalet staff are paid nowhere near the French minimum - though I do agree that given they don't have to pay rent, bus fares to work, food, electricity, etc they are much better off than many people working for minimum wage in the UK AND having to do all that. Their pay is essentially pocket money.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Alastair Pink, Perhaps the zenophobes get closer and closer to brexit without ever getting there.
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@snoozeboy, Yes, they have been happening long before implementation of free movement really came in.
If chalet holidays do disappear because of a Brexit it will, ironically, be because of all the legislation that the EU itself brought in, e.g. WTD etc.
Out of interest, what is to stop TOs changing the business model? Pay the chalet slaves more to comply with the law but take away all the perks.
@Pruman, @Minion1980, What's with this strong dislike of the catered chalet model?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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when I did my seasons the contract I signed in French, indicated I worked 2 hours a day and this was the way round minimum wages and was happy to sign it, was 30 years old at the time and did not feel I was being exploited, not sure it still is allowed now, as it was 20 years ago. I still came home with around £1200 to £1500 at the end of each season depending on the exchange rate at the time, as made loads of money on tips and honesty bar. would do it again in a heartbeat (family to look after now) and would advise any one to go for it, best time of my life skiing all day and partying most nights after meals finished!!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In the event of Brexit, not obvious to me that either the demand of Brits wanting to ski in Europe, or of chalet owners wanting to attract British holiday makers, would significantly decrease. So chalet holidays are likely to continue in some form, e.g. TOs might set up operating companies in the EU and, as foxtrotzulu said, change the business model.
But it is far more likely that in future those chalets would be staffed by English-speaking nationals from France or other EU member states, as British youngsters would no longer have any automatic right to work there. Similarly with instructors, bar staff etc.
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Miranda - oh whoops, I lost the 1 at the beginning! Its always good to ask (as I did) if I am missing something when what you think is so at odds with a discussion. I am humbled!!
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You know it makes sense.
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double post -- mods pls remove this
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sat 20-02-16 18:32; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| miranda wrote: |
| @FFIRMIN, that's 1,445.38 euros! |
When you add in the employers 67% social contributions, and ( you'll like this ) the employer then has to pay social contributions for the food and accommodation as they are part of the compensation ( The tax authorities used to base this on 540 pm for accommodation and 180 pm for food, but that was 6 years ago when we last employed people).
So even if the employer can provide the accommodation and food at "zero" cost, the real cost is around EUR 3,000 per month ( and remember this IS minimum wage).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
@Pruman, @Minion1980, What's with this strong dislike of the catered chalet model?
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+1?
The few times that there has been someone that has been a bit of a knob in the chalet, the rest of the guests have had a good laugh at their expense, I love the friendliness and intimacy of the chalet holiday and would always choose chalet over hotel.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@FFIRMIN, I don't think many chalet hosts work anything like a 35 hour week either. At least, we worked 50-60 hours a week and that seemed to be pretty much the norm. Changeover day was often 5am-10pm with an hour off if we were lucky. Shopping day was also pretty hectic and usually not practical to ski then - by the time we'd got back up the mountain and unloaded, it would be coming up 2:30pm. Didn't seem worth going up for such a short ski so used to use the time to catch up on washing, ironing etc. There's other stuff needs doing that isn't directly customer facing. BUT, as you say, we did generally get 5 hours skiing for 4 days a week and an additional full days skiing on our day off. Actually the split shift rather suited me, I wish I could work like that now.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Few chalet workers will sleep 8 hours a night, but assuming they do, that leaves 16 hours. 10 working, 6 off. Works out OK. They just don't "waste time" like most of us do. Watching telly, for example, or playing video games, or surfing the net, posting on SHs.......
If you don't waste time you can do a lot of working and a lot of playing in the day. Probably can't keep it up (especially as part of the 8 hours I've allotted to skiing will be doing something else.....)
I recall picking up my son in the station in Moutiers one day, at the end of a season cooking. The station was littered with knackered looking people with loads of gear, half of them asleep or comatose. 
We used to enjoy chalet holidays before we bought our apartment. Did a good range, mostly at the cheap end of the spectrum, and always enjoyed the company. There were three people very up themselves in one, but when they made it clear they wanted their own private table at dinner, the rest of us left them to it. On that occasion half the roof blew off our house on Sunday - the first ski day. My OH got whipped off home by the insurance company, to sort it out, but I stayed out and joined in an ESF class that others in the chalet were doing, and rated highly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yep -- undoubtedly finished. Especially after the French, Italians & Austrians etc introduce a non-EC Holiday Tax making all alpine and beach holidays prohibitively expensive for Brits. Never mind, Aviemore & Skegness will be happy ( they probably wouldn't be!).
Whatever the possible merits of voting OUT, the potential downside exists and it will be impossible for any OUT campaigner to quantify as they will get zero support from the EC in trying to get commitment to anything in relation to leaving trade and movement laws Britain unchanged if we left !
Voting OUT is like turkeys voting for Xmas -- you're not sure what will happen but you know it wont be good. So unfortunately we're going to give our pathetic British politicians undeserved airtime for something which is a foregone conclusion if only due to the Fear factor. More money wasted when they should be addressing real issues. Almost makes you want to hear more from Donald Trump.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Yip : It is a very valid point that if we exit the EU then the traditional chalet holiday as we know it is likely finished.
Indeed most UK chalet operators have already pulled out of Switzerland since the swiss changed their local working laws (banning UK contracts to be used for employees in CH).
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Yup
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Of course you can argue that Chalet firms having to pay a higher wage is a good thing.
However that simply puts the cost of holidays up as well and makes the whole model uneconomic.
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Could be. I don't think that the price of chalet holidays is a valid reason for affecting a referendum vote. Unless you are a chalet owner,
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| Agenterre wrote: |
Yep -- undoubtedly finished. Especially after the French, Italians & Austrians etc introduce a non-EC Holiday Tax making all alpine and beach holidays prohibitively expensive for Brits. Never mind, Aviemore & Skegness will be happy ( they probably wouldn't be!).
Whatever the possible merits of voting OUT, the potential downside exists and it will be impossible for any OUT campaigner to quantify as they will get zero support from the EC in trying to get commitment to anything in relation to leaving trade and movement laws Britain unchanged if we left !
Voting OUT is like turkeys voting for Xmas -- you're not sure what will happen but you know it wont be good. So unfortunately we're going to give our pathetic British politicians undeserved airtime for something which is a foregone conclusion if only due to the Fear factor. More money wasted when they should be addressing real issues. Almost makes you want to hear more from Donald Trump. |
I will be voting to stay in the EU, but when people start suggesting such utter drivel as you have with the 'non-EU holiday tax' it just plays into the hands of people who want to leave. Why on earth would the EU introduce a tax like this? It would hurt them infinitely more than it hurts us. It just makes no sense. People went on holiday and did trade with Europe long before the EU was even thought of.
You say that 'you're not sure what will happen but you know it won't be good'. In case you hadn't noticed roughly half the British population don't think it's very good at the moment. It's entirely feasible that exiting the EU would be very good economically for Britain. Personally, I think that economically we are better off in, but to promote scare stories without any foundation is unhelpful to all concerned.
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There were chalet holidays before the UK joined the EEC, NOT the EU. There still will be if we leave the EU. If EU impose even more stupid rules to penalise UK ski TO's, it will be the host countries who will lose out on a million visitors a season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Agenterre wrote: |
Yep -- undoubtedly finished. Especially after the French, Italians & Austrians etc introduce a non-EC Holiday Tax making all alpine and beach holidays prohibitively expensive for Brits. Never mind, Aviemore & Skegness will be happy ( they probably wouldn't be!).
Whatever the possible merits of voting OUT, the potential downside exists and it will be impossible for any OUT campaigner to quantify as they will get zero support from the EC in trying to get commitment to anything in relation to leaving trade and movement laws Britain unchanged if we left !
Voting OUT is like turkeys voting for Xmas -- you're not sure what will happen but you know it wont be good. So unfortunately we're going to give our pathetic British politicians undeserved airtime for something which is a foregone conclusion if only due to the Fear factor. More money wasted when they should be addressing real issues. Almost makes you want to hear more from Donald Trump. |
I will be voting to stay in the EU, but when people start suggesting such utter drivel as you have with the 'non-EU holiday tax' it just plays into the hands of people who want to leave. Why on earth would the EU introduce a tax like this? It would hurt them infinitely more than it hurts us. It just makes no sense. People went on holiday and did trade with Europe long before the EU was even thought of.
You say that 'you're not sure what will happen but you know it won't be good'. In case you hadn't noticed roughly half the British population don't think it's very good at the moment. It's entirely feasible that exiting the EU would be very good economically for Britain. Personally, I think that economically we are better off in, but to promote scare stories without any foundation is unhelpful to all concerned. |
Yes total drivel to make a point. Its the 'unknown' that makes it a difficult step. There is no argument based upon FACT that the OUT campaign can use. Everything they say will be drivel as you put it. ONLY because they have to assume scenarios.
You have made the cardinal sin. ASSUMING how the EC will behave towards a UK who has voted out. We can not know that.
Actually if you were old enough to remember travel to Europe, passport requirements , the £50 currency limit , trade tariffs etc your drivel about pre-EU times is wrong and a poor analogy.
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I was worried about the Go vote but then I found out Gove was leading it and I'm not so worried anymore.
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FAQ
