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Martin Bell pushes helmets: "On-piste is arguably more dangerous than off-piste"

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Martin Bell's short-but-snappy Ski Clinic (in the Observer) this week pushes helmets hard:
Quote:
Resorts are grooming ever steeper pistes, tempting people to go faster. 'Carving skis' and snowboards mean more people are doing fast arcing wide turns across the piste. This naturally brings them into conflict with skiers still doing old-school 'windscreen wiper' turns straight down the fall line. For all these reasons, serious collisions are becoming more frequent.

Here's the full article.
But do 'people collisions' induce head injuries, in the way that head-rock or head-tree collisions undoubtedly kill? Should piste skiers really fear head damage in a comparable way?

What is the jury's view?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
David Goldsmith wrote:
But do 'people collisions' induce head injuries, in the way that head-rock or head-tree collisions undoubtedly kill? Should piste skiers really fear potential head damage?

What is the jury's view?


I wouldn't have thought that the main head injury would come from hitting a person (unless it was at a hard/dense bone area, eg hip level), but more where your head goes next, e.g. onto the piste, or getting hit by your ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Inspite of being pro helmets, I also tend to think that head injuries are one of the less likely problems with an on piste collision. At the end of the day though, other injuries tend to heal alot more efficiently than head injuries, so I think helmet pushing is sensible.
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Wear The Fox Hat, having once had my ski come flying after me and put a twelve stitch gash in my head I can confirm that skis are dangerous things! Had I had a helmet on at the time then I guess nothing would have happened. I'm a slow learner though, and still don't wear a helmet!
About a year ago I saw an interview with an Austrian surgeon in Innsbruck who was stating that the severity of skiing injuries has increased markedly in the last few years since the introduction of carving skis and snowboards, and that he now frequently sees ski patients with the type of injuries usually only caused by motorbike accidents Shocked
Do helmets do any good on motorbikes? I think so, so why shouldn't they help with skiing?
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Data is important with this kind of discussion. I guess someone has done a collation of head injury frequency on pistes. I suspect the incidence is low.

Like Mike above I've had my head gashed by a ski edge, but it happened off-piste. I've a theory that short skis, carving skis etc., are more likely to hit your head than long skis - because long skis have more tendency to stay on the snow. Short skis can come whipping around behind your head more easily.
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In a 'person-to-person' collision, the wearer will certainly be less prone to head injury but what about the other party who gets clobbered by a plastic-encased head? Puzzled
Is there not a danger that more people wearing helmets would lead to more injuries caused by helmets? I can imagine a situation similar to what (I believe) happened in the early days of American Football (aka gridiron) where some players started to wear 'protective' gear and ended up injuring so many of their opponents that everyone was eventually compelled to wear protective gear!

Could it be made mandatory for all skiers to wear helmets, back protectors, knee braces, etc in order to protect themselves from other skiiers wearing similar gear?? Shocked

I suppose there's also the old argument about protective gear making people feel safer and therefore behaving with less caution - eg ABS in cars Toofy Grin
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David Goldsmith, mine was a high speed wipeout on piste with 207cm GS skis! Not sure why short skis should have a higher tendency to go for the head Puzzled
Red Leon The helmets I have seen don't in fact have a very hard shell. Certainly not as hard as the skulls of some of the boneheads I see skiing on pistes these days! I suspect that they would provide some cushioning even for the other person involved in the collision.
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Mike Lawrie wrote:
Red Leon The helmets I have seen don't in fact have a very hard shell. Certainly not as hard as the skulls of some of the boneheads I see skiing on pistes these days! I suspect that they would provide some cushioning even for the other person involved in the collision.

That sounds sensible to me. Surely you want helmets to crumple more easily than skull to absorb the force of impact?
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buns wrote:
Inspite of being pro helmets, I also tend to think that head injuries are one of the less likely problems with an on piste collision. At the end of the day though, other injuries tend to heal alot more efficiently than head injuries, so I think helmet pushing is sensible.


I'm with you on this one.... most parts of your body grow back, your head and its contents dont.... rolling eyes

But if people want to take that chance its fine by me, I'm sure they never fall over....
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toby wright, "most parts of your body grow back"??

Are you a lizard?
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Quote:

I can imagine a situation similar to what (I believe) happened in the early days of American Football (aka gridiron) where some players started to wear 'protective' gear and ended up injuring so many of their opponents that everyone was eventually compelled to wear protective gear!

Hardly a fair comparison: AF and rugby etc are contact sports where competitors often seek out contact with the opposition and doing a certain amount of damage is part and parcel of the game, physically wearing down the enemy. I don't know anyone who skis/boards looking for collisions. Protective gear rarely reduces the frequency of injury in contact sports becoz those concerned can throw themselves into tackles all the harder.

Some Snowheads have suggested that helmet wearers have a false sense of security and therefore ski more recklessly but I see no evidence of that out on the slopes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Hi new to the forum.

Quote:
Martin Bell
A friend, a very accomplished skier, experienced this epiphany while sliding headfirst over a rock on a double black run.


I was there when this happened and the shiney red helmet that was brought that night was very nice.

It did make me think hard about getting one.

A few years ago helmets were very rare on piste but this last trip they are becoming common. As alot of european countries require kids to wear them so it will, over time become the norm.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 16-01-06 16:09; edited 1 time in total
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Nick_C, welcome to snowHeads snowHead
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You know it makes sense.
Anyone else interested in Ski Rugby ? Puzzled
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Having spent the last week skiing with beginners I am amazed at the amount of near misses I encountered. The worst ocassion was when I saw a group of 8 or 9 skiing down a red run at 30 plus mph. None of them slowed down as they crossed the green run we were on. I had called our party to a halt as soon as I saw them but other people were terrified as this group weaved through. That was bad but unknown to me one of them had lost control and carreared off-piste. She passed me 3ft off the ground 10 ft away. I can't stop thinking what injuries I would have had if she had hit me. All of this group were wearing helmets. Would they have been so reckless without lids. I doubt it. What is more important is education. When learning more emphasis should be placed on awareness of the dangers of skiing and skiing with more thoughtfulness.
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I have a (totally not based on any study - just on talking to people who have bought helmets) feeling that the people who generally wear helmets may be a little more aware of safety issues than those who do not.
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im definately going to buy a helmet this year. although i didnt have a single bad fall in my last 2 week trip, by the end of it i was getting rather aware that at the speeds i was going i wasnt feeling very comfortable without any protection. couldnt believe that the shops didnt stock a very wide range of helmets (in fact i think they only had childrens sizes) - but then again it was serbia, and people ride around on their motorbikes all the time here without wearing helmets.
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Sorry but there are those like our party last week without helmets apart from the 2 vaguely experienced ones that just plummetted dispite warnings.

I personally would have sooner seen them fined for it.
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If you do get a ski helmet, please do not do as one idiot I saw last week had done and cover over the sections that allow sound to get to your ears, he almost got run over because he didn't hear the vehicle behind him, likewise no wearing of music systems (mp3, cd etc), if you can't hear the yelled warnings about the out of control sled heading towards you it's your own fault if it snaps your legs wink
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dnc, IMHO...

Surely, if you don't feel comfortable at those speeds (i.e. feel fully in control) then a helmet will only make you less safe? I would hazard the point that "comfort" is a function of control. Helmets don't make you a better skier & a well controlled skier shouldn't need a helmet (most of the time, T-bars, other fools, external hazards notwithstanding).

As someone once said, the most effective safety device that could be fitted to a car would be a long sharp spike sticking out of the steering wheel and no safety belt.
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David Murdoch, do you never fall over when you're going quickly? I do. Not very often, and I only go quickly when the piste is empty enough that a fall and long slide wouldn't involve me hitting other skiers on the slope. But I can't guarantee that when I'm going quick I will never fall over, and that's why I feel more comfortable wearing a helmet. I had two big falls on the same day when skiing at Christmas, one of which involved a considerable bang of my head on the snow. I was glad on that occasion I had something slightly more absorbent that a woolly hat covering my skull!

We could design something for skiing equivalent to the spike on the steering wheel, but for me that would take away much of the fun of skiing because pottering around the mountain with a huge margin of safety is a little tedious, no?
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Quote:

I only go quickly when the piste is empty enough that a fall and long slide wouldn't involve me hitting other skiers on the slope.
An admirable attitude rob, Last week a completley out of control nutter, on a blue down into Val Thorens, first skied over the back of my sons skis and then over the front of mine, clipping my leg and putting me down. He did not stop and continued his adventure down the hill. I had 2 young kids in tow and was able to shout abuse only. My Son involved had a helmet, I did not. This was my only fall of the week. If this very nasty person had hit either of us then the result would have been very serious.

During a lesson I was recalling the events to the instructor on the chairlift and he was not surprised. His slant on dangerous skiing was that the pistes were so well gromed that the abscence of bumps meant one could travel very fast in straightlines without falling.
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its not about a feeling of control, im a very cautious snowboarder (its my 5th year now...) and ive only just got the confidence up to tackle red runs (and even then im slow and steady). i do remain firmly in control at all times, and when i feel myself getting a bit out of control i do slam on the brakes and slow down. its just that a lot of parts of the pistes require you to build up some speed - often on areas designed for skiiers where theres a bit of a flat bit. its these places where i noticed myself getting more and more worried about falling, often because they can be a bit bumpy, and because skiiers (bless them) often stop without thinking that a boarder might be coming along behind them - and damnit unclipping and walking is a pain.

a friend of mine had a very nasty fall because of this, and luckily he caught his heelside edge and went on his back - where his rucksack took most of the fall, but if it had been a toeside plant, well then im fairly sure that it would have hurt a lot more.

oh and im definately going to be investing in a helmet with in-built audio. i dont see the problem with listening to music, as long as its not too loud and of course you use it sensibly. hearing a vehicle behind him shouldnt have been a major issue, because the rule of thumb is that you are responsible for people in front of you - once again i think there needs to be some line drawn between common sense and use of an object.

having a helmet doesnt mean im going to be acting like im invunerable, it means im going to be a lot happier about my personal safety. listening to music doesnt mean im going to be pounding along listening to "bodies" by drowning pool at full volume attempting to barge into every single person on the slope, it means im going to have the choice to listen to music when i want to.
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Frosty, has that incident caused you to purchase a helmet for yourself?

regards,

greg
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gregh, No, but it has caused me to think about it. No doubt I wont bother as it will never happen to me rolling eyes
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Quote:

As someone once said, the most effective safety device that could be fitted to a car would be a long sharp spike sticking out of the steering wheel and no safety belt.

Yeah, and they were talking rubbish. Back in the 50s there was total carnage on the roads, no airbags, razor-sharp glove compartment doors springing open in collisions, disembowelling adults and decapitating toddlers who had no seatbelts to restrain them etc etc.... If everyone had a big spike on their steering wheel there may well be fewer accidents but every accident that did occur would be fatal.

If you transfer that philosophy to skiing then it means doing away with helmets, wrist protectors for snowboarders, release-bindings and so on and so on. Is that what we want? No thanks.
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interesting, I got a helmet for myself as I found myself more offpiste amoungst trees, rocks etc.

However thinking about getting the missus one....

regards,

Greg
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dnc wrote:
- often on areas designed for skiiers where theres a bit of a flat bit.

I take your point, but I'd like to note that those annoying flat bits aren't actually designed for skiers. We don't like poling/skating along either, although I recognise it's a bit easier for us folk that can still use our legs independently Smile
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You know it makes sense.
OT - it's a fact though that skiers aren't considerate enough towards boarders Shocked. I was gliding along a flat blue near an edge with a boarder carrying some momentum coming up slowly, directly behind me. I looked back and could see that if he had to turn slightly to get past me he would lose all his speed, so I turned out of his path. He was both surprised and thankful...
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Helmets dont make idiots. Idiots have existed long before helmets were common place. Postulate all you want, get all the figures you want, you cant account for other people who are on the edge of control, and this does not alter whether they are skiing in a helmet or not.

As with everything its ultimately about self preservation

Whats next, a study that shows that people on old skis are more likely to injure you because their bindings are out of warranty?
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Quote:

Idiots have existed long before helmets were common place. Postulate all you want, get all the figures you want, you cant account for other people who are on the edge of control, and this does not alter whether they are skiing in a helmet or not.


I agree helmets don't come into it other than for reasons of self preservation ... accidents will always exist whether helmets are worn or not.

Idiots are one cause - but there is also over-confidence which I am certainly sometimes guilty of.

The longer I go without a fall, the more in control I feel, the more I forget about the consequences, the more invincible I feel, and the more I push the edge of my abilities! ... and all this while still believing I am being careful and considerate. Bottom line is there are going to be certain situations where you will be at the edge of your ability if you are striving to improve - and accidents will happen here.
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dnc, ahhh, you're a snowboarder. OK, that makes a bit of a difference. I do think all snowboarders should have helmets on, just because of the way you typically fall. And yes, you do have some interesting schussing requirements that aren't faced on skis in quite the same way.

the ice perv, I wasn't really suggesting it as a sensible option. And your extensions are a little specious! My concern was simply that you could extend dnc's argument to read (and I fully appreciate that this was NOT dnc's point!!) that a helmet would be a good thing if one felt that one was skiing beyond one's ability. Safety bindings and wrist guards are essential kit for personal safety. Helmets less so.

rob@rar.org.uk, very rarely. Although the last memorable one did result in a nasty gash to my scalp from scraping on the ice. A helmet would have helped Happy . It wouldn't have helped at all if I'd carried on another 3 metres as I'd have become a semi-permanent stain on the Dolomites. In fairness to me, this was in 2001. I don't fall over very often at all.
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yeah snowboarding does present some challenges that skiiers dont fully appreciate. this year i really wanted to learn to ski (i did dry slope skiing at crystal palace and calshot when i was a kid - falling down on those dry slopes was more than enough to put me off), because i think i'll appreciate the problems skiers face with boarders a bit more.

generally i only have problems with boarders are when they are going too fast, too close - often it makes it look like they are trying to use me as some kind of slalom flag. the only problem i have with skiers is having them stop at innappropriate times (because they can easily propel themselves forwards again, whereas i have to unclip and skate along). oh and when im going down the easier blues i hate those giant crocodile lines of ski schoolers, i never seem to be able to find the right moment to get past them, so im often lurking around the edges waiting to find a sufficient gap. kudos to the instructors who signal when you can make a pass/turn.
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This looks very much like the arguments about seatbelts and bicycle helmets, in that I suspect a lot of realise deep down that we would be marginally safer wearing a helmet than not but we look for all manner of excuses not to do it ("safer without, I'm very careful") because we don't want to look silly or suffer any inconvience.

My dad made my brother and I wear seatbelts from pretty much the day we were born, at a time when it wasn't a legal requirement. This has only saved our lifes once!

I don't wear a helmet for ski-ing or cycling, but I'm pretty sure I probably should.
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Interesting stuff on the psychology of wearing helmets. As a recent purchaser, the only difference the helmet has made to the way I ski was on a schuss which went through a narrow bit with a solid wall of ice on one side. I felt a bit safer going through this bit at high speed with my helmet on. In reality, it was very unlikely that I would fall over on that bit and if I did and went headlong into a solid wall of ice at 30mph, I'd be in a pretty bad state helmet or no.
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when i used to mountain bike regularly i always wore a helmet. i think thats whats prompted me to think more about it, because im used to travelling at those kind of speeds with the knowledge that it hurts to fall over and that it feels strange to do it without a helmet.
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I always wear a cycle helmet nowadays since getting knocked off my bike years ago and having my head slap hard into the road.
Funny how I don't when skiing as the speeds are the same. I think I’m fooling myself in to believing that if I do go a big cropper the piste will suddenly turn into nice soft snow.

Hhhmm the more I think on it the more I will get one.
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Slightly tangental, but an indication of the general public's (and my) complete lack of joined up risk assessment.

Every time my four year old gets on a bike (with stabilisers) he is religiously helmeted up despite the fact his top speed is about 5 mph and with the stabs he has very little chance of coming to grief. However, on his microscooter, at which he travels at frightening speed on tiny little hard wheels with no grip from which he regularly falls, the wife amd I NEVER think of putting a lid on him. And this same pattern of behaviour is followed by every child in the whole of Hertfordshire as far as I can see.

The thing is, if we are so bad at risk assessment (and looking at the thread it seems to be a fairly common affliction Laughing , where is the Richard Dawkins evolutionary advantage of the human race adopting this tactic, and why has it stayed in our genetic makeup over the milenium. Shouldn't we have evolved sensible ?
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Nick_C, the piste stays hard. After 3 or 4 unspectacular falls in which I bounced my head off the piste (on successive trips) and felt shitty for a few hours, I now wear a helmet, and the old lady does the same after a slightly more spectacular but fall, on the flat, which left her a bit out of it for 24 hours. Needless to say, I don't think I've banged my head since I started to wear the helmet, but the rocks, stones and ice in Courchevel over Xmas weren't going to d oanyone's head any favours in a fall.
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richmond, I agree. In fact it's like accident insurance, you get it hoping never to need it but the one time you don't have it you will need it and wish you had it.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 17-01-06 15:55; edited 1 time in total
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