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"Grippy" short turns

 Poster: A snowHead
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balernoStu wrote:
@jedster, have you seen this video, showing in slow motion a couple of low transitions leading to big (and effective) edge angles, Shiffrin in GS:

edit: seems you have to click the youTube logo to view



http://youtube.com/v/6-8TIENFWkE


There's a lot to study in that vid...


That was great.

Re jedsters post (which made me think).
In linked video there is actually a lot of flex and extension, but its in the lateral plane.
Which makes her look low. But legs are still working hard
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Not sure this demo is that good but here are a few turns trying to demonstrate short turns finding grip at or below the fall line then followed by a few turns above the fall line. Pitch is about 36 degrees on firm hard snow, skis 16M radius.

https://vimeo.com/154991251
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Gerry wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Gerry wrote:
Well, if this is official BASI standard terminology (Rob, is it?) then no wonder it's such a ucked up organisation.
I don't think it ever gets that complicated. Generally it would be described as grip before the fall line, grip at the fall line or grip after the fall line. Simple and unambiguous, to me and everyone I've ever skied with on BASI courses.


Great, that's how I always understood it. Thanks!

'Grip below the fall line' what utter rubbish.


It's not that hard!

Once you have crossed the fall line (aka you are after it) in the turn, you are further downhill than the point where you hit the fall line in the turn (aka you are below it).
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I do sympathise with those who have to commit this kind of thing to writing. It must be very hard.
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clarky999 wrote:
Gerry wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Gerry wrote:
Well, if this is official BASI standard terminology (Rob, is it?) then no wonder it's such a ucked up organisation.
I don't think it ever gets that complicated. Generally it would be described as grip before the fall line, grip at the fall line or grip after the fall line. Simple and unambiguous, to me and everyone I've ever skied with on BASI courses.


Great, that's how I always understood it. Thanks!

'Grip below the fall line' what utter rubbish.


It's not that hard!

Once you have crossed the fall line (aka you are after it) in the turn, you are further downhill than the point where you hit the fall line in the turn (aka you are below it).


I prefer Rob's explanation. 'Below' just makes no sense to me.
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It's not "after" vs "below" that's the problem!

It's "from" !! From the fall line - what does that mean??

@skimottaret, thanks - to me that looks to be of a much higher level than in the L2 video posted earlier, would you agree?
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@Pending, I think the common sense interpretation is that "from" = "at".

The video posted by skimottaret is well above the L2 standard. The piste that was being used is a steep black, and L2 candidates would not be expected to make short turns on that grade of terrain.
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Red Leon wrote:
You probably don't remember (why would you?) but last year in San Cass, we were doing short turns one afternoon and I mentioned that I felt I had to ski in 'full attack' mode to get anything like the desired result.
Well, that guy (Beaulieu) is doing for real exactly what my feeble imagination told me I was doing on a gentle slope that lovely sunny afternoon Embarassed

Something to aim for, perhaps?


I remember it very clearly. Those breakthrough moments are memorable for me as a teacher, as much as for the skier who makes them.

Definitely something too aim for. Beaulieu is an inspirational skier Happy
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Pending wrote:
It's not "after" vs "below" that's the problem!

It's "from" !! From the fall line - what does that mean??



From to me reads 'from the point you hit the fall line.' Which would be the same as 'at.'
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@Pending, again I agree with Rob: "from" == "at"

But I think I've just cottoned on to a subtlety from one of your earlier comments where you said "or have the criteria become tougher". The video states the requirement as "after the fall line" whereas the level 2 work book states it as "from the fall line". To me those are different, but it's a small difference. It wouldn't be the first time such things are inconsistent, but I wouldn't worry about it. The most important part of the sentence is "grip": if the trainer can see that (and it's not just right at the end of the turn) I reckon they'll be happy. If they're not happy, then grip earlier. If it gets to the point where these small semantic differences are relevant then you're probably not going to convince the trainer other than by changing your skiing.
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rob@rar wrote:
Red Leon wrote:
You probably don't remember (why would you?) but last year in San Cass, we were doing short turns one afternoon and I mentioned that I felt I had to ski in 'full attack' mode to get anything like the desired result.
Well, that guy (Beaulieu) is doing for real exactly what my feeble imagination told me I was doing on a gentle slope that lovely sunny afternoon Embarassed

Something to aim for, perhaps?


I remember it very clearly. Those breakthrough moments are memorable for me as a teacher, as much as for the skier who makes them.

Definitely something too aim for. Beaulieu is an inspirational skier Happy


It is well worth watching all of his numbered videos for inspiration snowHead

Maybe a big dose of jealousy as well Skullie



youtube.com/v/QYfqO-ISQlk


Just look at his shoulders and head how quiet they are, this shows just how strong his technique is. Very inspirational but will take many years of dedication to attain.
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Pending wrote:
It's not "after" vs "below" that's the problem!

It's "from" !! From the fall line - what does that mean??

@skimottaret, thanks - to me that looks to be of a much higher level than in the L2 video posted earlier, would you agree?


There are some 2015 L3 pass runs in this video along with some coaches showing the L3 standard.


http://youtube.com/v/xsQwSj2Vd3I

Looks to me like a lot of pivot entry and gripping after the fall line so "from" = "after". They probably want you to demonstrate steering skills and speed control rather than the carved short turns a race coach is looking for.
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@Kenny, I do hear the coach in that video say 'at the fall line' when describing the level though. I'd agree that steering and speed control will be important, grippy isn't necessarily carving.
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This is me doing L2 pass level grippy short turns...


http://youtube.com/v/YEH7G_Cvofo

@Pending, what level of BASI are you having this discussion about?
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what speed are bumps meant to be "at or above the minimum speed" ?
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@balernoStu, #1 proper powder, #2 bumps (or maybe spring snow), #3 dickin around on SLs in mid air.

You can tell I've really thought this through... snowHead
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balernoStu wrote:
@Kenny, I do hear the coach in that video say 'at the fall line' when describing the level though. I'd agree that steering and speed control will be important, grippy isn't necessarily carving.
On a few the skis are in the air through the fall line. That aint grip!
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Thanks for the videos, guys. That's exactly what I was after. Anyone got any other examples of shorts either above or below the passing level, at L2 or L3?

@kitenski, that looks to me like a higher level of performance than in the L2 BASI video! It seems to me that the passing level is definitely higher than that video shows, but according to BASI, that is the level required, and "from" = "after"
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@Pending, those were called a very strong pass to be honest, so above the minimum, well spotted Smile
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BTW if this link works it's my shorts progression.. (doing of phone)


http://youtube.com/v/wt_UsrA5Otc
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@kitenski, very good compilation highlighting your issues and then showing all the improvements made to your skiing !! (I think I filmed a few of those clips Wink )
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Pending wrote:
Would anyone have any video example of the difference?


Hi Pending, In the video I posted can you see the difference in grip below the fall line and above? Another way of thinking about this is if you are skiing in a half pipe where do you feel the edge and pressure building up? Before you get to the top of the pipe, at the top or on the way back down...
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skimottaret wrote:
@kitenski, very good compilation highlighting your issues and then showing all the improvements made to your skiing !! (I think I filmed a few of those clips Wink )


I agree Toofy Grin - a short compilation showing progress even I can see Embarassed

I am particularly struck be the increase in dynamic movement (ie. knees moving up & down and feet / skis going across the body) as demonstrated by the last two of Greg's clips.

If (as Rob claims, so it must be true!), I had some sort of 'breakthrough' in my skiing - which will never be anything but mediocre - I think it was the realisation that I needed to be more dynamic, ie. try not to ski like a robot / dalek
I found that to achieve even the modest performance we were looking for (and it was truly modest), I had to feel I was jumping around like a WC slalom skier rolling eyes
The video subsequently showed I was still far less dynamic than I felt - but I suspect I am fairly typical of most 'holiday' skiers whose movements are much smaller and less dynamic than they believe.
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@Red Leon, hear hear to all of that. I feel the same!
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The points is that at the beginning of the turn (before the fall line) the slope helps you turn. If you imagine traversing and then just relax, you will tend to head downhill. Once your skis pass through the fall line, if you wish to continue the turn you will be working against the slope, requiring more force and edge angle. That's why beginners can often start a turn carving, but end up skidding towards the end of the turn and/or not completing their turn.

As you get more advanced you realise that the fact that the slope helps you start the turn makes you lazy. The key to going fast racing is to not be lazy but to develop the maximum turning force you can at the beginning of the turn. To develop that turning force you have to essentially throw your body down the hill and trust that the skis are going to turn and catch up with you. That's what makes racing so fun Happy

M
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skimottaret wrote:
@kitenski, very good compilation highlighting your issues and then showing all the improvements made to your skiing !! (I think I filmed a few of those clips Wink )


You did indeed film at least one of the clips!
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hyperkub wrote:
The points is that at the beginning of the turn (before the fall line) the slope helps you turn. If you imagine traversing and then just relax, you will tend to head downhill. Once your skis pass through the fall line, if you wish to continue the turn you will be working against the slope, requiring more force and edge angle. That's why beginners can often start a turn carving, but end up skidding towards the end of the turn and/or not completing their turn.

As you get more advanced you realise that the fact that the slope helps you start the turn makes you lazy. The key to going fast racing is to not be lazy but to develop the maximum turning force you can at the beginning of the turn. To develop that turning force you have to essentially throw your body down the hill and trust that the skis are going to turn and catch up with you. That's what makes racing so fun Happy

M


Yup, think you've pretty much described my skiing style Sad

When I first learnt years ago on old-school skis I remember being taught all this stuff about how to transfer weight to initiate the turn by crouching and extending, planting poles and all the rest of it.

Then with the more modern skis I came to realise this was largely unnecessary and all you needed to do was allow your skis to go down the hill, put a bit more pressure on the outside ski, and you'll turn no problem.

Trouble is as you say, this makes you quite lazy and I tend to end up sliding round the second half of the turn rather than carving on both edges and leaving 2 clean tracks in the snow as I'd like to.

Any tips to get out of this habit? Is throwing yourself into the turn as you suggest the answer or will that make me come a cropper? Puzzled
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A good exercise to do on an easy-moderate slope is to start out doing long and lazy turns. Keeping them round and carved doesn't take much physical effort, just some finesse with the edges. Then gradually shorten each successive turn. Keep them round, but you will reach a point where you begin to struggle to keep them carved and round. At that point, do longer and longer turns. Repeat this cycle several times and hopefully by the time you finish the drill your shortest clean carved turn will be shorter than you could manage to begin with. The exercise also makes you work at your control of turn size by adjusting how much you angulate the skis.

M
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@Haggis_Trap,
Quote:

Re jedsters post (which made me think).

In linked video there is actually a lot of flex and extension, but its in the lateral plane.

Which makes her look low. But legs are still working hard


Definitely. I didn't intend to suggest that by staying low your legs weren't working just making the point that it seemed a more effective way of going from high edge angle to high edge angle than "standing tall" at transition (which is one way of releasing the old edge and readying for the new one
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The BASI L2 Short Turns video is out of date (2010). The criteria have got tougher. Now you have to be gripping by the time you reach the fall line and maintain grip until the end of the turn. If you can manage to grip before you reach the fall line, that's great and (if other criteria are met) you should definitely pass. If you grip at the fall line that should be OK too. If you don't achieve grip until after your skis hit the fall line you will not pass (unless your examiner is also out of date, which can happen). Stop worrying about / arguing about the wording of the criteria and focus on improving your skiing. You will not win an argument with your examiner; you will only succeed in annoying him or her and that will not help you. Regardless of when you think you are achieving grip, just try to get earlier grip and more grip.
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Best thing I heard from a trainer is, it doesn't matter what they look like as long as there is grip rather than skidding and you can show control of slowing down and speeding up, the turn will be your turn, not the absolute perfect turn, it'll be the Martin version of the turn - he said he'd pass me on that
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Here is a new Video from the Irish Association showing the level for L2 short turns. They have both trainers demoing as well as actual candidates. Much better than the BASI video in my opinion. Enjoy..


http://youtube.com/v/azVZ6LJGGL0
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@skimottaret, is it me but the trainers turns seem a bit "poppy" to me, quite a bit of vertical movement of the head and upper body???
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maybe that is okay and typical at L2 Wink
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Derek also displays a lack of rotational separation which again is allowed at L2
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@skimottaret, so you mean some stuff is verboten at L1 but allowed at L2? Puzzled
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I'm no expert but the IASI l2 looks a lower standard than the BASI L2 based on my experience with BASI.
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looks pretty similar to me... One thing that creeps in at BASI is the current flavour of the year and the trainers talk a lot about whatever was topical at the trainers conference and or Interski. When I started the BASI way was a very wide cowboy stance and you still see Trainers from that era who ski that way. Then it was Canadian crouch, then big inclination on GS turns, then cross through was all the rage, now it is all about cross under level head and low hip position... Although BASI always talk about outcomes there is a big emphasis on inputs...
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You are not expected to be able to carve short turns at level 2?
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Ah - missed the discussion above - more about steering and speed control than carving - get it. Clearly you need to demonstrate those aspects with a high degree of competence to teach.

was looking at the J F Beaulieu video - nothing shows the truth of the "virtual mogul" thing better than his skiing - those fast, short carves he makes show so many similarities to fall-line bump turns
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