 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
My board just had a base grind and wax before a weekend in the alps and now it rides like cr@p, I can't work out if it's the board, or the particularly warm weather on the mountain, or just me (getting old now 
Problem is sometimes when I'm on the heel edge (either side-slipping or going at speed with a little heel pressure) it feels like the board is trying to pitch me back on to the toe edge, this feels really bad. I've ridden in spring plenty, so I have had this 'braking' feeling before when hitting slush, but now it seems more severe. I tried to 'de-tune' the heel edge a little while away, but this didn't seem to help.
The bindings are where they always were (for at least 10 years ~ 12 weeks on snow), I've had this same board all that time and loved it (Palmer Crown 161 - same kind of board as a Burton Custom I guess) it regularly goes over 100kph on ski-tracks , been riding since '97 and done a season in NZ, so I'm no noob.
So I can either get it re-ground somewhere else, tune the edges myself, or get a new board. I'm not keen on chucking the Palmer, it's been a great board, but then I don't want to spend my next hol (March) getting flipped onto my face.
Anyone been through this, or have any advice?
Thanks in advance!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I seem to recall a similar problem with an old Burton Charger I once had towards the end of its life - turned out that the heelside edge had come away from the base and there was gap forming between the edge and base under pressure and causing the a snagging/dragging effect on the heel side.
Or could it be something daft like the bindings having been taken off for service and mounted back in a slightly different position or loose and you haven't noticed?
Welcome to SH too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@fastlad, welcome to sH.
I had exactly this problem on both edges of my fairly old Nitro board after I decided to change my edge angles to 1degree (90degree) 1degree. It was a nightmare, like it was always trying to suck me back to running flat, strongly enough to completely ruin the ride. I got them changed back to the default 0-90-0 at the end of last season... but I haven't actually had a chance to try the corrected board yet though, so I still don't know if it really was the cause of the problem. It's put me right off changing angles in future though.
So no advice to offer I'm afraid, but I'll follow this thread with interest.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 8-02-16 22:43; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It's the conditions is my guess had very similar experience at Xmas. Really weird feeling feels like the board is being sucked down. I'm sure it will be fine in different conditions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FWIW for me it was the same effect whatever the conditions. The only time it disappeared was in powder (of course).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hi Richard and thanks for the reply.
I've had a close look at the edge again and tried to ease it away from the board, I can't move it. On the base I can slide a screwdriver across the ptex and onto the metal without feeling any transition in all but a few places where a slight edge can be felt, I can't decide if this is just down to some minor ptex wear and tear, or movement of the edge. I cracked and repaired a rail on a Burton Custom years ago, it was in way worse shape but didn't behave as badly as my Palmer does now.
Now I realise it gets a lot more pressure when it's got my 85 kilos stood on it but I can't see any evidence that the rail has ever moved, like any cracks above the rail on the side etc. However I think it's a good theory and haven't ruled it out yet, I can easily imagine the rail moving would feel exactly as it does.
As far as the bindings go, I took them off and replaced them myself, a job I do plenty. I normally service the board myself, but I thought I'd save the mess and get it done in the shop, a decision I now regret.
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| Pyremaniac wrote: |
@fastlad, welcome to sH.
like it was always trying to suck me back to running flat, strongly enough to completely ruin the ride.
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YES! exactly this! It's a horrible feeling, like the board is trying to kill me, it's worse on the hard/icy stuff, doesn't matter what gradient.
But can I ask you what you mean by 1-90-1?
I thought a standard setup was 89deg. I understood that to mean the rail base was exactly parallell to the ptex base, and the rail sidewall was at 89deg to the rail base
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| honeybadger wrote: |
| It's the conditions is my guess had very similar experience at Xmas. Really weird feeling feels like the board is being sucked down. I'm sure it will be fine in different conditions. |
Thanks for the reply honeybadger, I hope you are right. It would be odd though, after almost 20 years riding on 4 continents, to find a new kind of snow condition. Where were you at Xmas and what were the conditions?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lack of structure on the bottom creating suction?
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| ringingmaster wrote: |
| Lack of structure on the bottom creating suction? |
yeah, this was going to be my suggestion. ruling out user error and damage to the rails its maybe feasible that an overly aggressive base grind has removed the structure of the base. I'm not really sure if it can happen, and what effect it would have on the ride, or why it would only effect you on your heels, but there you go.
The fact that it happens on just one edge, and there's no damage to the edge/rail make me think its probably in your head.
whats it like riding switch?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ringingmaster wrote: |
| Lack of structure on the bottom creating suction? |
Thanks for the reply. As far as I'm aware the base has never been 'structured'. But maybe I'm missing something?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You should be able to see hairline grooves in the base like this:
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you said it had been for a base grind? the base of a board isn't flat, it has a structure to it that allows moisture to run off it.
its like if you place something perfectly flat on a wet surface it will stick to it. A board with no structure will do the same on snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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ringingmaster !
What tool is that in the picture where do you get them or other structure tools for boards..if it is a ski hand structure tool that is?
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 10-02-16 8:53; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sorry - the picture is not mine - just one I found on google to make the point.
I have only ever had the structure reinstated by whatever shop I have had a base grind done by. I presume that the base grind machine does it. I did have a pair of ski's back without, but I just asked them to finish the job.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| fastlad wrote: |
| Pyremaniac wrote: |
@fastlad, welcome to sH.
like it was always trying to suck me back to running flat, strongly enough to completely ruin the ride.
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YES! exactly this! It's a horrible feeling, like the board is trying to kill me, it's worse on the hard/icy stuff, doesn't matter what gradient.
But can I ask you what you mean by 1-90-1?
I thought a standard setup was 89deg. I understood that to mean the rail base was exactly parallell to the ptex base, and the rail sidewall was at 89deg to the rail base |
Yeah totally, it's progressively worse on harder and harder snow until it becomes genuinely dangerous to ride on hardpack because you can't edge the board. It caused me to fall a number of times.
I might well be wrong, but I always thought that the default edge angle situation for a (non-park) board was to have 90deg angle between the side edge of the metal strip and the base edge, and that the side edge is 0deg from vertical (runs straight up and down) and the base edge is 0deg from the horizontal (is parallel to the board base). Out of curiosity I decided to change it so that the 90deg was preserved but the side edge slanted outward by 1deg from vertical from top to bottom, and the base edge slanted up and out by 1deg from the horizontal from inside to outside.
In theory the idea was to preserve the same level of grip (controlled by the 90deg) but make the edge less catchy on hard snow, on modules, etc.
I don't have the board to hand at the moment, but when I do I will investigate the structure. That somehow sounds more plausible as the cause than the edge angles. I've tended to the board myself at least once since the problem, but I don't have a real base structuring tool (just ghetto use of brillo pads and pot scrapers haha) and I've never paid particularly close attention to the result, beyond "yeah, looks like there are plently of lines there".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I had a similar thing with skis once. Turned out the bases were really concave - the middle was higher off the snow than the edges when laid flat.
They still skied fine the first month or so I used them, but as soon as they'd had a service they just became unskiable. I'm not really sure how the service made them worse, but it definitely didn't cause the concavity - you could see where the grinder had worked on the edges but hadn't touched the middle.
If that's the case with yours I don't think it can be fixed. Mine were warrantied, but were only a couple of months old.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm going to ChillFactorE on saturday so may drop it in at snow and rock, see what their guys think. Maybe they can tell me if the board was designed to have have the structure or not. I've never seen the base looking like the pic above, and I reckon I have an eye for stuff like that. I've always serviced it myself before, but obviously never ground it. The thing that puts me off the structure problem is that no wet snow was underfoot when the board went sketchy.
It would be nice to get it sorted and try again, but who wants to spend one of their precious snow days testing a repair on a 10 year old board, not me. New board I reckon.
Still, thanks for all the help, if there's anything to report back I will do so.
Clarky999 - base looks pretty flat when I put a ruler edge to edge, but thanks for the idea!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Pyremaniac, what you've described (90° edge with 1° bevel) is pretty standard.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Could be a hanging burr, where the grind doesn't leave a clean edge. I've had it a lot of shop from shop grinds where the machine isn't set correctly or the skis are not hand finished.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| fastlad wrote: |
| honeybadger wrote: |
| It's the conditions is my guess had very similar experience at Xmas. Really weird feeling feels like the board is being sucked down. I'm sure it will be fine in different conditions. |
Thanks for the reply honeybadger, I hope you are right. It would be odd though, after almost 20 years riding on 4 continents, to find a new kind of snow condition. Where were you at Xmas and what were the conditions? |
I was in LDA poor snow cover and lots of rocks which were causing a fair bit of damage to both the base and edges. I had to re sharpen everyday. I've been snowboarding for 15 years and haven't had the same experience before. It could have been influenced by the burrs being created on the edges but I haven't had that feeling from burrs before.
Back to LDA next week where there will be plenty of snow so we will see if everything feels ok
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Hmm. The board was ok and now it is not.. the difference being a base grind. So that does suggest that either they cocked up the base, or the edges, or some combination. Or it could be just inappropriate wax.
Does the board sit flat? Wood boards deform over time even if they're not used much. Otherwise it's not hard to check the base grid is level with the edges and that the bevels are reasonable.
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@fastlad, How does it ride in a straight line? does it feel like its dragging and slow?
I had exactly the same problem and it was the wax I had used was way out of its comfort zone. My board rode like a dog.
Could be a cheap easy fix:
Remove all old wax.....ALL of it with a wax removing compound.
Scotch pad it over
Wire wool the base, front to back
Re wax......with the correct temp wax.
Worth a go before you start getting into re, regrinds.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@fastlad, When were you away? I was in Italy last week and the snow was really changeable. The conditions were quite warm lower down and in the transition between slush and snow, the snow felt really grabby, particularly on my heal edge, much worse than I have felt before ( I too have done quite a bit of spring riding). I initially thought that it might be my board, but it rides fine through slush and on other types of snow and I couldn't find any issue.... but sure enough at certain places on the mountain, it was really, really bad, similar to what you have described above.
I would be inclined to follow @Gyro's advice above and see how it feels next time before doing anything more drastic.
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joy division - I was in Les Arcs last weekend, it wasn't the slush causing the problem, it was the hard stuff.
philwig - base is flat, looks fine
honeybadger - definitely no burrs
gyro - straight line on soft snow (not slush tho) with no edge pressure it rides good, on slush it ummm..... rides like slush
Plan A - get it structured, somewhere else, make sure they use the right wax, then take it on holiday in March, hope it's fixed.
Plan B - find if there's a shop in Livigno with a good selection of boards, if it's still no good I'll buy a new one after the first day
If there's no decent board shops/prices in Livigno, I might buy a new one anyway and take both. Palmer will then do for Scotland!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I just came across something similar on another forum. Text repeated below, with some editing from me to keep to your point.
Translation: sounds like your tuner was on drugs.
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"I recently picked up a used [board] for softie carving and bump riding.The board allegedly had one demo day in its history. The base had a lovely structure and the edges were razor sharp. I mounted that sucker up with Power Plates and stiff softies and took it out on the hill last Friday. It was a fright. The board alternated between twitchiness and stubbornness. It was slow to accelerate, but at speed, the toe side edge was catchy while the heel side felt sluggish, making for a wholly unpredictable and scary ride.
At first, I chalked it up to [board shape]. [Then I found] a 3-degree bevel on one side (starting 1/4" into the base. Why stop at the metal when you can have some plastic with it?) and 1-degree or no bevel on the other side, depending on where you looked. The structure was also "meant for slow acceleration, but a high top end," for what purpose, I can't imagine. Evidently this is what comes from mixing prescription drugs and base grinding machines.
I asked for 1-degree on the base with 1.5 on the sides and a not-stupid structure, and detuned tip and tail. I took it out yesterday, [it] behaved like a completely different board. I never thought a tune could make THAT much difference but apparently those guys bustling around World Cup tuning tables are doing something helpful."
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