 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
I'm considering buying some more skis that are more suitable to off piste and need some guidance please. I'm an advanced on piste skier but want to try more of the off piste stuff. I have been on the EoSB and had a few off piste lesson but my piste skis are not helping!
Ive been looking at Movement Buzz / trust and some of the Whitedot model but not sure what would be best ( I need to be able to ski on piste as well). There's a few for sale used or new but most are without bindings, just to add more complications
Any advice would be great 
Oh and I'm about 5.10 and 80kg
Cheers Gaz
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You will probably get quite a wide range of opinions on this, but I'd probably shoot for something in the ~105 underfoot range with a bit of tip rocker.
Tail rocker? some love it some hate it... makes it looser feeling, but you lose the support and 'spring' that you can get loading up the tail coming out of a turn. Personally I find that the main benefit is in deeper powder in the trees and for Euro skiing I prefer without or just very moderate rise.
I ski the Praxis Freeride* to cover this spot but other good options that I've tried are:
Whitedot 108
Black crows Navis
Movement Trust
If you wanted some tail rocker then the Black crows Atris is not a bad option, and a lot of people like the S7
All of the above have a reasonable turn radius so you'll still find that you can carve a turn on piste - just a bit more work to get them on edge.
*in spite of having the freerides, this year I've mostly taken my Praxis GPO's as a one ski quiver - they are 116 underfoot. They still ski the piste just fine if you are more focused on finding the soft stuff.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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p.s. Unless you are planning on a lot of uphill I'd skip lighterweight touring models like the Buzz... I haven't skied that particular ski, but as a generalisation, something with a bit more weight will fair better once things get skied up a bit at the resort. No need to go for the heaviest, most burly ski out there, but just avoid the super lightweight end of the spectrum.
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Thanks Ben,
I've skied with a guy using Trust a couple of years ago.....raved about them. Interesting about the Buzz comment....suppose it make sense though..........too old to be skinning up somewhere...........lifts for me!
What about the binding situation - not well up on it, just concerned about being stuck with ski and cant get bindings fitted etc??
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gaz,
I'm really not the best person to ask on alpine bindings as I ski tele, but you should have no problem buying a set and getting them mounted. If you are buying new then most shops will mount for free if you buy the skis /bindings form them. If you are getting secondhand or from different stores then most shops will mount them for a small fee.
If you don't get any more responses here then try contacting Jon at the piste office - he'll give you some good advice (and probably sell you some whitedots!).
Ben
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Volkl Katana is the way to go - expensive, but very versatile. Short tours are possible, they are fantastic in powder, and ski surprisingly well on-piste (I can carve when conditions are good, and they are rock solid on ice, bumps not so good!). Get Marker F2 bindings, again for versatility.
And noone is too old for skinning up! There is a lot of off-piste to be had if you are prepared to even walk for 30 mins, and it does not track out anywhere near as quickly.
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| Gaz_H wrote: |
| I'm considering buying some more skis that are more suitable to off piste and need some guidance please. I'm an advanced on piste skier but want to try more of the off piste stuff. I have been on the EoSB and had a few off piste lesson but my piste skis are not helping! |
Mmmm... I wouldn't necessarily assume getting some "powder ski's" will magically turn you into a great off piste skiing. Nor will lots of "off piste" lessons. Skiing off piste will expose general technique flaws and a lot of it is just down correcting those and getting mileage.
That said if you don't an all mountain ski it won't help... what are skiing at the moment?
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| Quote: |
Ive been looking at Movement Buzz / trust and some of the Whitedot model but not sure what would be best ( I need to be able to ski on piste as well).
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Ignore the scaremongering: fat skis are perfectly fine onpiste, apart from the full reverse sidecut models.
Get something around 110mm underfoot, mid-high 180s long, tip and tail rocker (makes the longer and more stable skis much more manoeuvrable in trees and tight spaces), and normal camber underfoot.
Whitedot Director, Black Crows Atris, Down Throwdown 110, Salomon Rocker 108, Faction Candide 3.0, etc etc.
Hard to beat for value: http://www.downskis.com/shop/throwdown-110-2015
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| .......Ignore the scaremongering: fat skis are perfectly fine onpiste.... |
Think it does depend on the state of the piste though, I'm fine on mine if snow is soft / fresh but if it's boiler plate then NO, especially with my old knees am I going to get an edge 
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| Quote: |
Think it does depend on the state of the piste though, I'm fine on mine if snow is soft / fresh but if it's boiler plate then NO, especially with my old knees am I going to get an edge
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I can get an edge - just the process of getting from one edge to the other becomes a bit of a trial. No way I'd do a week of skiing on hard pistes on fat skis - I'd hire something else if I only had my fat skis with me. Bit of piste skiing to get to the off piste - sure.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Weathercam, @jedster, yeah of course they're never going to be the first choice to ski boilerplate if you have other options, but you can still have plenty of fun and enjoyable skiing on your average piste in average conditions. It's not like if you add a cm of width underfoot suddenly everything becomes unskiable and scary and you're sliding uncontrollably all over the place like some people imply.
Depends more on the type of ski than the width though. Floppy BC jib sticks will never hold an edge on ice like a heavy, damp charger, just like floppy beginner skis will never grip like an FIS race ski. Due to conditions this year I've spent a lot of time on piste with my Down CD114M's - all the metal was a revelation, and I've never once lacked for edge grip so far. Even on really scraped and wind-scoured machine snow. Crazy versatile.
Any of those I listed should be plenty of fun on piste as long as you don't have your heart set on race carving on ice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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No matter what you choose, it will be some sort of compromise. However, on my Soul 7s I've had over 70mph on piste (@Fee in L2A) and although a litte flappy, I felt in total control. Off piste they are excellent as their lightweight nature seems to lift them out off the softer snow with ease.
They are neither fat as fat can be, but perform well in more focussed off-piste company, and yet I'm happy on any groomed slope too.
After years of having at least two pairs, sometimes four, I now don't really see the need for dedicated specialist skis.
So I've started to mono...... 
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@Gaz_H, i have a pair of Kastle MX 108 178cm off piste skis , with early rise tip and a good under foot camber , amazing in the soft snow and more than capable on the piste and firmer snow . mounted with marker jester pro bindings , absoulote bomber set up that im thinking of selling if ur interested . only used in japan for one week and a couple of deep days last year in whistler.
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You know it makes sense.
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Whitedot Redeemers - amazing on most off piste stuff but avoid ice if you can.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| BenA wrote: |
| p.s. Unless you are planning on a lot of uphill I'd skip lighterweight touring models like the Buzz... I haven't skied that particular ski, but as a generalisation, something with a bit more weight will fair better once things get skied up a bit at the resort. No need to go for the heaviest, most burly ski out there, but just avoid the super lightweight end of the spectrum. |
The Buzz is not a superlight touring model, it is just slightly narrower than the Trust but in the same range. There is a lightweight ski called the Shift which is basically a touring version of the Buzz.
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Poster: A snowHead
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There is a pair of Atomic Automatic skis on here which are brilliant skis not just off piste in lovely light snow but on the sides in chopped up manky snow and they are pretty good on piste aswell they have a semi flat tail so are stable at pretty high speeds camber under foot and a long rocker up front ...total bargain.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 8-02-16 18:34; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowrider wrote: |
| BenA wrote: |
| p.s. Unless you are planning on a lot of uphill I'd skip lighterweight touring models like the Buzz... I haven't skied that particular ski, but as a generalisation, something with a bit more weight will fair better once things get skied up a bit at the resort. No need to go for the heaviest, most burly ski out there, but just avoid the super lightweight end of the spectrum. |
The Buzz is not a superlight touring model, it is just slightly narrower than the Trust but in the same range. There is a lightweight ski called the Shift which is basically a touring version of the Buzz. |
I stand corrected - I thought that I saw it in their lightweight touring range - probably mistaken.
Back to the general advice ^^^ a lot of opinions eh, and some good advice.
Contrary to *some* of the suggestions above I think that fatter skis do help you learn to ski off piste. You can get all purist about it and say that you need to iron out the flaws in your technique, but the question is what is the best route to doing this. I struggled for years trying to ski skinny skis in the soft and when I got my first pair of fat skis they were a revelation - so much more forgiving of mistakes in the soft stuff. The great thing was that far from becoming a crutch that I could not do without, they allowed me to try things out without getting punished, and I progressed much quicker. I then found that with my improved technique I could go back to my skinnier sticks in the soft when I had to (not that I do so much).
The question is really how wide do you go? To clarkys point adding 10mm underfoot doesn't suddenley mean that they don't work on piste. They work just fine - perhaps a bit slower edge to edge and if you are a pro DH racer you would scoff at the concept of fat skis on piste but for most of us they are just fine. My feeling is that the sweet spot is somewhere between 100 - 110 depending on the design of the ski and what your mix of piste to off piste is likely to be. For tail rocker I think that anyone who insists that you should go one way or another is just forwarding their preference. I go back to the question of do you like to feel that you can load up the tail and spring out of the turns? If so go with a more traditional tail. If you like the feeling of drifting a ski sideways and releasing the tail then go for some rocker.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You are right, it's not all about the width. They need to be long enough too!
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@BenA, does depend on what you are using them for though!
If you're doing a tour with a substantial number of kick turns then a smaller narrower ski is so much better, but then you're penalised to some degree on the descent, unless you're used to skiing a smaller ski.
Guys from CAF I was touring with last Friday were all on sub 170 skis and they were not vertically challenged 
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Thanks everybody for the input, advice and opinions. Still not sure what I'm going to do yet...but I do know what I'm not doing........
Touring
Walking up the mountain
So for someone who is getting the lift up for maybe 2 weeks a year and trying catch some powder and having lessons, sometimes a guide, I'm not going to be forking out many 100's (500+) for what would realistically be 60% of my skiing.
I do appreciate the argument about technique, I am a good technical piste skier and should be able to use my Fischer AMD 76, and believe me I have tried, no more so than on the Indren and La Balme in Gressoney. For me these new skis are more to do with a confidence boost to get me going.......as someone said above.....can always move back to the slimmer ski.
I'm wondering whether it's best to hire some this year, maybe try a few and see which suits?
Also, do any of you know whether the hire shops in Gressoney do fats? I'm assuming so?
Thanks
Gary
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@Gaz_H, Just seen the ski choices you put up!
For some extra info, the Movement Buzz is not a lightweight touring ski its a slimmed down version of the Trust with a good tip profile rocker and a flatish tail that works off piste and also on piste, as does the Trust, I might have some ex demo Buzz and also Trust available soon, just message or email me if your interested. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Gaz_H, I'd suggest something like the Volkl Mantra or Blizzard Bonafide. Maybe a Kastle MX model, all of which are ~96-98 underfoot.
Wide enough to cope with any off piste and not so fat as to be very compromised on piste. The OH and I now ski them preferentially even on piste although we have various shapes of race skis to choose. Takes the effort of making a choice in the morning away.
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| Quote: |
@Gaz_H, I'd suggest something like the Volkl Mantra or Blizzard Bonafide. Maybe a Kastle MX model, all of which are ~96-98 underfoot.
Wide enough to cope with any off piste and not so fat as to be very compromised on piste. The OH and I now ski them preferentially even on piste although we have various shapes of race skis to choose. Takes the effort of making a choice in the morning away.
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Good advice if you are only going to take one pair of skis with you for all conditions. I think this is the sweet spot.
They won't be as friendly as wider rockered ski off piste but they will still give plenty of float and will be MUCH more rewarding on piste when the snow is firm.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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BTW I personally would agree that skis that are designed for the conditions DO help you improve the relevant technique - they build confidence and give quick positive feedback when you do the right thing. So wider skis help you learn off piste but make it more difficult to perfect sort carves on hard pack.
That said as someone who learned to ski powder on 2m old school skinny planks I do think genuinely good piste technique should transfer pretty easily to off piste. Although I suspect lots of people who learned on modern skis aren't used to the more equal weighting that you need to use when off piste on narrower skis (but was probably more of a feature of old school short swing turns).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Scott "The Ski" was my choice at the start of this season - spent two weeks on them last month on and off-piste (thought mainly off) and absolutely love them. Got them set up with Marker Tour F10s for the occasional day tour. Highly recommended.
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Wouldn't it be correct to say that the greater width gets you a little more float but it doesn't stop you falling on your backside or face planting when you get it wrong. I wouldn't advise anybody to deliberately venture off piste on 30 year old skis or slalom skis but the Fischer AMD 76 is meant to be an all mountain ski and if you know them well should do the job. I was skiing on 78 width ski's (Rossignol Bandits/B2) until a couple of years ago - and the missus still does.
If I was in the market for new ski's I would go fatter for sure. I am on Cham 97's these days. For an all mountain resort ski I think that's around the optimal with design's as they are. But fatter skis are not a panacea. You've got to the do the hard miles IMHO.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Wouldn't it be correct to say that the greater width gets you a little more float but it doesn't stop you falling on your backside or face planting when you get it wrong. |
Sorry but I really don't think that this statement is correct - obviously fatter skis wont stop you falling over in any situation, but they will stop you falling in many situations where a skinnier ski would have punished you. If you weight skinny skis unevenly in deeper snow then you are on your backside. If you overdrive skinny tips then you are head over heels. Fatter skis are much more tolerant of mismatched weighting because the greater surface area means that you are less reliant on even pressure across the bases of both skis consistently. This will save you from a fall in situations where a skinnier ski would have punished you.
If you are touring then this brings other compromises into play as Weathercam suggests - shorter narrower lighter are all better going uphill, but Gaz is not looking at going uphill.
@Gaz - renting is probably a good call for a week. You can try something fat for a couple of days, and something moderate and see how they feel. Test something with and without tail rocker too. Of course you need the conditions to test them out in....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Sorry but I really don't think that this statement is correct - obviously fatter skis wont stop you falling over in any situation, but they will stop you falling in many situations where a skinnier ski would have punished you. If you weight skinny skis unevenly in deeper snow then you are on your backside. If you overdrive skinny tips then you are head over heels. Fatter skis are much more tolerant of mismatched weighting because the greater surface area means that you are less reliant on even pressure across the bases of both skis consistently. This will save you from a fall in situations where a skinnier ski would have punished you.
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exactly - they make it much easier to avoid the two most common ways of getting it wrong in powder
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Poster: A snowHead
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@livetoski, I'd definitely be interested to see what you might get in.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@BenA, @jedster, first time I went heli skiing we had a charming Austrian lawyer in our party who's ambition and capability were totally mis-matched.
No worries said the guide, we just give him wider skis each run until he can keep up.
Worked.
Gressoney shops almost certainly will have skis in their fleets that go as wide as you need. Ensure that whoever you rent from is happy for you to swap skis around during the week at no charge and no complaint.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
No worries said the guide, we just give him wider skis each run until he can keep up.
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When I did it we were flown in to the lodge and the guides strongly recommended you didn't bring your own skis (so they could put you on fatter ones and get you through more vertical = more $).
Funnily enough we were there with a group of Austrians but they were all about 30 and clearly better skiers than me. Included one guy with a volkl sponsorship who attacked everything at mach schnell and pulled a huge back flip in full crucifix position midway down one line.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Gaz_H wrote: |
Thanks everybody for the input, advice and opinions. Still not sure what I'm going to do yet...but I do know what I'm not doing........
Touring
Walking up the mountain
So for someone who is getting the lift up for maybe 2 weeks a year and trying catch some powder and having lessons, sometimes a guide, I'm not going to be forking out many 100's (500+) for what would realistically be 60% of my skiing.
I do appreciate the argument about technique, I am a good technical piste skier and should be able to use my Fischer AMD 76, and believe me I have tried, no more so than on the Indren and La Balme in Gressoney. For me these new skis are more to do with a confidence boost to get me going.......as someone said above.....can always move back to the slimmer ski.
I'm wondering whether it's best to hire some this year, maybe try a few and see which suits?
Also, do any of you know whether the hire shops in Gressoney do fats? I'm assuming so?
Thanks
Gary |
Couple of points from me...
Gressoney will most definitely have fat skis to rent. I had one of my Dukes come off my Sugar Daddies and the shop kindly offered a variety of skis to rent while they worked wonders to repair the damage. This leads me to my second point...
Try and swap as many skis if you can. The shop offered me a pair of SCOTT something, and while it matched my SDs dimensions wise, they were absolutely horrible. Very stiff and too heavy for my liking. Perfect to bust crud, but utterly shite on the run from Punta Indren back to Alagna via the glacier which was mostly powder. They were nasty on the groomed stuff too - they held the line better than the Atomics, but my knees did hurt a lot...
3d and last point - anything up 110cm underfoot will ski perfectly well on piste. All you have to do is adjust your style a touch and make an allowance for the fact that edge holding will not be as good as on a GS ski. Once you allow the skis to flow, you will be fine. Also, don't just look at the underfoot, but also at the overall shape. I just bought some Czech custom bad boys, which are 145-104-138 in 192cm, turn radius is 23m, while my trusty SDs are 128-100-117, with a turn radius of 29m.
Alex
P.S. Once you try something along those dimensions, you will not go back to thin skis, ever
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Firstly, off piste skis will help you s ski better off piste in powder and when you ski better for longer, your technique, confidence and all round competence improves. So,while its only part of the equation, better equipment can make you a better skier.
I ski on Armada Jj Akas, they are lovely powder skis, but at 122 mm wide may be a bit wide f for your t taste
I hired a really lovely set of skis over NY in Whistler, they are K2 shreditor, 112mm waist, front&back rocker, nice edge curve, nice stiffness and weight. Just nice. Would highly recommend them
http://en.k2skis.com/skis/shreditor-112
Good luck
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I have a pair of Blizzard and Bonafides. Great on and off piste (within limits of my skiing ability).
Had a week off piste in January and the guide/instructor had Soul 7s he was highly praising. He uses off and on piste as teaches on piste beginners too. Three of the guys rented them and were very happy. A caveat was they were a bit wobbly on piste.
Another instructor rented them and went out and bought some afterwards.
Seems like good praise.
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Blizzard Bonafides are a great compromise for me too. I got them in 180, which is shorter then i usually ski but as the focus is on piste skiing i did not need the length. They are a burly ski and require some driver input, but have a great edge hold (even in icy conditions), good rebound from medium stiff tail, and are stable at speed; i naturally like to make medium to long radius turns. The subtle rocker shape also makes them easy to pivot when i am messing about with my kids. Also much better at crud busting then my Kastle 108's; caveat: these are now mounted with dynafits ft's.
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99% of people always recommended a ski they own no one ever says don't buy these I got them and they are rubbish. Maybe that's only to be expected its better than folk recommending something they ain't tried.. I dunno I just think its a pretty pointless question on something very subjective.you really are best trying some . Now you have like 10 diff pairs mentioned here what do you base your choice on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The only problem with fat skis is old gondolas as you have to split them and take up two slots so you get some dogey looks when its busy.But id buy black crows atris if I could but I dont rate the soul7 as I found them to hooky
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FAQ
