I'm currently in St Anton, I've not been skiing for that long this is my 4th week in about 5 years and I'm finding myself stuck and frustratingly unable to improve.
I think it's caused by a mixture of The Fear as being a bit unfit.
I'd be grateful for views/tips of how to get past this as I'm currently feeling a little apprehensive about getting back on the slopes.
What happens is that the moment it gets steep The Fear starts and my technique flies out of the window.
When steep or icey The Fear kicks in, and if there is an edge of piste with a drop in sight I have thoughts of careering off the edge!
Although I know I shouldn't, but then my weight drops back and i lean heavily back in to the mountain. Pressure going on my uphill pole.
I'm generally cutting across the piste, and so fighting the skis and the fall line. My skis skidding as I make turns across the fall line.
These types of turns lead to tired legs, which results in more of The Fear as I trust myself less to be in control.
I should point out, this can happen on Blue, Red or Black runs. (For example Blue Rendl 11 or Black 2) Also, I'm never "out of control" I'm able to stop and I'm not hogging the entire piste.
Any thoughts or tips would be appreciated.
Thanks
R
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
You'll never fix all those issues with internet tips. Get a lesson. Or 10. Private one-on-one if you can afford it. That's what instructors are for!
If you really want to be a masochist and go it alone:
1/ Concentrate on your stance - shoulders over knees over toes. Concentrate on keeping your ankles flexed as opposed to your knees. If your ankles are flexed everything else will line up naturally.
2/ Focus on keeping your weight forward and over your outside (turning) ski. A simple tip is to always try to keep your chin over your outside toe. This will give more grip and the added grip will give more confidence.
3/ Focus on always being in a turn. Ski nice big 'S' shapes rather than smaller 'Z' shapes. As soon as you finish one turn, start immediately the next one. Make sure you do actually finish the turn by getting your skis all the way round and uphill if necessary to control your speed.
Watch this guy's series of videos from about here onwards, the next lesson is about turn shape (point 3)
I'm not an instructor and won't pretend to be, but I think lots of people go through a similar phase.
Traverse across the piste with your toes clawing at the snow inside the boot and every muscle in your body tensing up. Then its either a very slow turn or worse you stop and panic about how you are going to put that turn in with careering off down the hill.
You need to keep moving down the hill, a little more speed will help you initiate the turn. Once you slow right down or stop getting that turn in becomes harder and more frightening because you have to at some stage point the planks down the hill to get the momentum to make the turn.
Just keep the flow going, less 'Z' and more 'S' if that makes sense.
But like i said, i'm not an instructor.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 5-02-16 9:04; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks guys.
I had a 2 hour private lesson here in St Anton last year. It was the biggest waste of money ever. I wish I had complained. I can't afford to risk that amount of money again and end up with a poor and lazy instructor.
I should have done a group lesson in thus trip. That's for sure. But it's now too late to join one today and they don't do them on Saturday. I'm home on Sunday.
Thanks for the tips, hopefully I'll improve today!
After all it is free
After all it is free
@rossyl, before you go next time, ask for advice here about private instructors wherever you're going. Many of us have experience in particular areas and people that we recommend (or not!). The right instructor will make a HUGE difference.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@rossyl, in the UK, are you within reach of one of the snowdomes? Worth having some lessons there before your next trip. But one lesson, even a good one (and obviously yours wasn't) isn't going to fix it. A group would have been a good idea and is certainly much cheaper. And yes, get some recommendations before you go, next time. Or even before you plan the trip at all - maybe plan the whole thing round tuition for the week.
If you can't do decent turns on a blue piste, lay off the reds and blacks - there's no point skidding your way down in a series of zig zags as you describe. Exhausting.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Don't beat yourself up too much. No 2 is pretty steep and usually pretty busy or icy/lumpy. Concentrate on doing nice round turns at increasing speed on blue terrain staying centred on the skis. Hold your poles out in front of you horizontally to prevent your hands falling back or dragging.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
Quote:
You'll never fix all those issues with internet tips. Get a lesson. Or 10. Private one-on-one if you can afford it. That's what instructors are for!
+1
-1
Of course good instruction can help. A lot. But every intermediate skier has to address those issues and many succeed with little instruction.
What I realised (largely self taught) is that everything in skiing needs to be more exaggerated than you think. Generally more is more. When you think you are flexed a lot, you probably aren't. Practices on blues with getting as flexed as you can, low, chin over toes. When conditions get tough/steep this needs to be your default response but The Fear is a problem so you need to groove it on easy terrain until it becomes second nature. That said even now after a lot of skiing I have occasions when I need to remind myself to do it MORE.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
One tip I had years ago was to forget pretty much everything else, and just try to concentrate on skiing on the balls of my feet. To do that, initially, you have to almost try to imagine standing on 'tip toe' in your boots by lifting your heal (this will only be a few millimetres in reality if you have good fitting boots, but may feel like more. Anyway, doing this (at all times) will force you to keep your weight forward, shins against the front of the boot, and allow you to turn on the front of the skis. Turning will be easier and you will gain confidence. Eventually you won't think about doing it any more, and naturally your stance will assume the normal, stacked forward, position.
Worked for me as a training exercise anyway.
If you get too hung up on a million different things (hand position, ankles, knees etc.) it can be overwhelming - and stressing.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 5-02-16 11:29; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The two things that have helped me are:
1. Get my hands forward
2. On anything vaguely steep I keep asking myself "can I feel my shin against the boot". If not - hands and body forward.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
jester wrote:
... getting as flexed as you can, low, chin over toes.
If you are very flexed and have your chin above your toes you are almost certainly leaning on the back of your boots.
jester wrote:
When conditions get tough/steep this needs to be your default response but The Fear is a problem so you need to groove it on easy terrain until it becomes second nature.
If practising a very flexed position as the default stance when conditions get challenging you are almost certainly developing bad habits.
rossyl, it's very difficult to offer advice without seeing you ski, especially on something which sounds as fundamental as you describe. I'd echo the recommendations from others about lessons, although it's a great shame that your last experience of working with an instructor was so bad. Maybe ask on the forum for recommendations for a ski school, or better still an individual instructor if you are thinking about a private lesson.
The generic advice given here about developing your movement patterns on gentle slopes before heading to pistes you find challenging is probably key. If you head to steep slopes before you have the skills to deal with them you will almost certainly develop bad habits (sort of Survival Skiing) which might become your default way of skiing and ultimately will limit your progress.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
If you are very flexed and have your chin above your toes you are almost certainly leaning on the back of your boots.
Guess chin may be in front of toes but if anything I tend to get more shin pressure as I flex
Quote:
If practising a very flexed position as the default stance when conditions get challenging you are almost certainly developing bad habits.
And why do you say that? A flexed position gives you so many options to adjust to terrain, snow, obstacles and manoeuvre the skis instantly at will. That is what challenging conditions call for.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
There's some good advice on here.
When it gets steep you have to consciously push yourself forwards.
It seems counter intuitive and scary at first, because of the way we walk down steep slopes in daily life. (Leaning back and flexing our ankles/feet down the hill)
Push your hands forward and make sure your shins are tight up against the front of your boots. This will give you more control.
It feels wrong, but you have to tough it out, until you get your confidence.
Private lessons will help.
Above all; stick a big stupid smile on your face and try and remember it's a fun activity. Remember to enjoy it, even on the steep.
Ouch!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ski with your hips - to initiate each turn move your hips DOWN the hill in the direction you want to go.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
What @Ouch! says ties with my own experience, assisted by a method that will probably draw a sharp reaction from you experts here!
For one day midweek, in about 1991, I swapped my hired skis for a monoski. I had no way to keep my legs 1.5 shoulder widths apart, as I usually tried to. And it was simply impossible to turn it when leaning backwards which I always did. So I got used to it on greens and easy blues in the morning then went down progressively steeper slopes in the afternoon, literally gritting my teeth as I leaned down the scary slope to make it turn.
I went with a group of friends that week, we were all of pretty equal ability. They took snowboards that day (and regretted it, no lessons). By the end of the week we had a race top to bottom, all back on our two skis. I let them all go first and then just blasted them off the mountain. All my technique-crippling fear was gone.
I hear monoskis are bad for technique but it only improved mine (shows just how bad mine was). It was probably my fondest memory of skiing, and I really wish I could find another for a one day hire again. As I got older, less indestructible and didn't ski for ten years or more, the fear slowly returns.
If practising a very flexed position as the default stance when conditions get challenging you are almost certainly developing bad habits.
And why do you say that? A flexed position gives you so many options to adjust to terrain, snow, obstacles and manoeuvre the skis instantly at will. That is what challenging conditions call for.
If your 'default' (ie. normal) position has already used up all your flex, you have none left when you actually need it - eg. allowing for unexpected changes in terrain.
IMV you really need to be able to add and subtract flex dynamically as you ski.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rossyl wrote:
Hi,
I'm currently in St Anton, I've not been skiing for that long this is my 4th week in about 5 years and I'm finding myself stuck and frustratingly unable to improve.
I think it's caused by a mixture of The Fear as being a bit unfit.
I'd be grateful for views/tips of how to get past this as I'm currently feeling a little apprehensive about getting back on the slopes.
What happens is that the moment it gets steep The Fear starts and my technique flies out of the window.
When steep or icey The Fear kicks in, and if there is an edge of piste with a drop in sight I have thoughts of careering off the edge!
Although I know I shouldn't, but then my weight drops back and i lean heavily back in to the mountain. Pressure going on my uphill pole.
I'm generally cutting across the piste, and so fighting the skis and the fall line. My skis skidding as I make turns across the fall line.
These types of turns lead to tired legs, which results in more of The Fear as I trust myself less to be in control.
I should point out, this can happen on Blue, Red or Black runs. (For example Blue Rendl 11 or Black 2) Also, I'm never "out of control" I'm able to stop and I'm not hogging the entire piste.
Any thoughts or tips would be appreciated.
Thanks
R
There were a few people in my group in Chamonix last week and the week before who were in the back seat. Listening to the instruction given, it all seemed to come down to the hands being 'in your pockets' and 'upper body no enough in the fall line'.
Oddly, no matter how many times most of them were told, they could not seem to get themselves into the 'right body shape'. They would get in the right position while stationary, but as soon as they moved their arms and hands would come down and they were in the back seat. The steeper the terrain, the worse it was.
And why do you say that? A flexed position gives you so many options to adjust to terrain, snow, obstacles and manoeuvre the skis instantly at will. That is what challenging conditions call for.
Because if you stay in a flexed position you are static. You need to use movement, especially when conditions get challenging. When I see people on terrain they are not comfortable with they are almost always static, rigid and typically in the back seat and try to jam their edges in to the snow to "be in control". All the opposite of what you want to do. If you are over-flexed at the knees you lose your ability to absorb the terrain, so the slightest bump is going to cause you to break at the waist. If you are over-flexed at the knees you will almost certainly start your turn by sitting on your tails of your skis and twisting them more than is necessary, rather than moving across your skis and balancing on the new edges early in the turn.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 5-02-16 14:08; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Whilst always recommending that advice should come from an instructor rather from well meaning friends, I have like most skiers been in a position where you want to help a friend who is struggling.
The sitting back/fighting the skis/fall line scenario set out in this thread is very common both personally from my first weeks of skiing and through witnessing it affecting others on the slopes.
As noted in the responses, their are many adjustments that can help, but trying to adopt them all, or even more than one at a time may compound the problem.
One simple piece of advice given to me that i have passed on to friends in this position is to focus on facing down the piste rather than across it, by this i mean the hole of your upper body rather than just turning your head.
This firstly helps initiate the turn that you need to make as your legs and hence your skis will naturally want to follow the lead of your upper body, and will also promote the feeling of leaning/commiting down the slope rather than fighting against it.
It is a step that needs to be taken in overcoming the fear of the slope you are referring to, but once achieved you will be rewarded by the feeling that your skis want to turn rather than having to fight them to turn them as you currently note.
As noted it is easier to practice/focus on this feeling on slopes you do not fear and progressively moving to steeper areas once you have started to feel the benefit of commiting to the change you have made.
All that said, there is no substitute for lessons which will ensure that all the issues that need to be addresed in your skiing are tackled in the right order as well as instilling new skills which will allow you to move on to a more competent level. Most importantly, they will teach you how to enjoy rather than fear new/steeper territory.
...and keep smiling, this also helps
After all it is free
After all it is free
Red Leon wrote:
If your 'default' (ie. normal) position has already used up all your flex, you have none left when you actually need it - eg. allowing for unexpected changes in terrain.
IMV you really need to be able to add and subtract flex dynamically as you ski.
An excellent description. You must have had excellent instructors!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Gerry wrote:
Oddly, no matter how many times most of them were told, they could not seem to get themselves into the 'right body shape'.
I think it is better to think about movements than body shapes. We shouldn't try to assume the correct position, not least because our balanced position varies as we link in to a new turn and through that turn.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
Red Leon wrote:
If your 'default' (ie. normal) position has already used up all your flex, you have none left when you actually need it - eg. allowing for unexpected changes in terrain.
IMV you really need to be able to add and subtract flex dynamically as you ski.
An excellent description. You must have had excellent instructors!
Nah - all my own work, Guv!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Do get more lessons is you can. A great instructor in La Ros really improved my parallel skiing when I was progressing to intermediate level. Steve in Val D (forumite) got me working on drills to improve technique last year. I appreciate not all instructors are good but hopefully they will get you back on track.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Thanks everyone for the moral support and advice.
I don't think it came across in my original post but I have had lessons, of the 3 previous weeks skiing 2 were spent having group lessons and the third the poor private lesson. I've also had lessons in a snow dome in the UK.
I think The Fear just got hold of me yesterday and I reverted to very bad habits. The main points i raised with regard to my technique still apply and I will take more lessons.
Today was much better. Much better! Thanks for the moral support everyone. It was the confidence boost I needed after yesterday.
I'm off to Meribel on 27 Feb, I will have lessons, any recommendations? Ideally small group as private lessons are a little too pricey for me.
Thanks again everyone.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar wrote:
Gerry wrote:
Oddly, no matter how many times most of them were told, they could not seem to get themselves into the 'right body shape'.
I think it is better to think about movements than body shapes. We shouldn't try to assume the correct position, not least because our balanced position varies as we link in to a new turn and through that turn.
Just repeating. But it's interesting what you say compared to what was being said last week. 'Right shape' I took to mean that 'ready for anything' feet apart, arms/hands in front, ankles flexed, pressure in front of boots, not too high, not too low type of thing.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Fri 5-02-16 14:36; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
I'm off to Meribel on 27 Feb, I will have lessons, any recommendations?
Marmalade.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Gerry wrote:
'Right shape' I took to mean that 'ready for anything' feet apart, arms/hands in front, ankles flexed, pressure in front of boot type of thing.
Yes, I agree with that, a good dynamic "home base", but it can too easily be interpreted (perhaps because of language difficulties between instructor and client) as a "fixed shape" and people get preoccupied with the amount of twist they have at their waist, of keeping the shoulders down the valley, of the perfect stance width, hands in the 'right' position, etc, etc. We know that skiing is a dynamic sport, in a constantly changing environment, with the ebb and flow of forces as we link our turns. All of that demands that our movements are in proportion to the changes in the environment, and how we want to ski it. To me that means that a fixed position is the last thing we need.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
Red Leon wrote:
If your 'default' (ie. normal) position has already used up all your flex, you have none left when you actually need it - eg. allowing for unexpected changes in terrain.
IMV you really need to be able to add and subtract flex dynamically as you ski.
An excellent description. You must have had excellent instructors!
The other problem with this position is that it puts hips behind knees, moving most of the body's mass rearwards. A tendency to lean into the hill is not fixed by getting low, it is fixed by not leaning into the hill!
The suggestion to move chin over toes can be helpful, aiming for the downhill toe as it encourages movement of the upper body towards the downhill ski, and this increases its grip which in turn helps with confidence.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Gerry wrote:
'Right shape' I took to mean that 'ready for anything' feet apart, arms/hands in front, ankles flexed, pressure in front of boot type of thing.
Yes, I agree with that, a good dynamic "home base", but it can too easily be interpreted (perhaps because of language difficulties between instructor and client) as a "fixed shape" and people get preoccupied with the amount of twist they have at their waist, of keeping the shoulders down the valley, of the perfect stance width, hands in the 'right' position, etc, etc. We know that skiing is a dynamic sport, in a constantly changing environment, with the ebb and flow of forces as we link our turns. All of that demands that our movements are in proportion to the changes in the environment, and how we want to ski it. To me that means that a fixed position is the last thing we need.
@rob@rar, no, they made it clear re all that. I just found it interesting that for some, just getting the hands right was impossible. Talking to one guy, he said he know he had this problem but he didn't seem too happy about being picked up on it or interested in actively trying to do something about it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Gerry wrote:
no, they made it clear re all that.
Good.
Gerry wrote:
I just found it interesting that for some, just getting the hands right was impossible. Talking to one guy, he said he know he had this problem but he didn't seem too happy about being picked up on it or actively trying to do something about it.
Hand carriage is a very obvious thing (we can all see it), but I'm a bit more relaxed about it than many people are. For me the important thing is whether hand position is stopping/detracting from the skier from using the skis as he wants, and making effective movements through the turn. If it isn't stopping the skier from making good movements, then surely it's just a question of personal style and why should I care about style?
The advice is often offered to skiers in the backseat to bring your hands up and that will fix your fore/aft balance. I think that rarely works, and can make the problem worse. If there's a problem about being balanced too far backwards the problem is going to almost certainly around the ankles and knees. That's where the solution lies, so why add the complicating factor of what the skier is doing with their arms?
I just found it interesting that for some, just getting the hands right was impossible. Talking to one guy, he said he know he had this problem but he didn't seem too happy about being picked up on it or actively trying to do something about it.
Hand carriage is a very obvious thing (we can all see it), but I'm a bit more relaxed about it than many people are. For me the important thing is whether hand position is stopping/detracting from the skier from using the skis as he wants, and making effective movements through the turn. If it isn't stopping the skier from making good movements, then surely it's just a question of personal style and why should I care about style?
The advice is often offered to skiers in the backseat to bring your hands up and that will fix your fore/aft balance. I think that rarely works, and can make the problem worse. If there's a problem about being balanced too far backwards the problem is going to almost certainly around the ankles and knees. That's where the solution lies, so why add the complicating factor of what the skier is doing with their arms?
From my position as an observer, it seemed the aft problem was all caused by lazy arm position, and the lack of control by bodies being too square with the skis, combined with lazy arms and ineffective pole plants. Those that responded to input along those lines improved, and those that didn't just continued to struggle.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 5-02-16 15:23; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Gerry wrote:
From my position as an observer, it seemed the aft problem was all caused by lazy arm position and the lack of control by bodies being too square with the skis, combined with lazy arms and ineffective pole plants. Those that responded to input along those lines improved, and those that didn't just continued to struggle.
What happened at the ankles and knees when arm carriage changed?
Making a good pole plant can make the world of difference, and can be used to help trigger effective movements as well as stabilising the upper body.
From my position as an observer, it seemed the aft problem was all caused by lazy arm position and the lack of control by bodies being too square with the skis, combined with lazy arms and ineffective pole plants. Those that responded to input along those lines improved, and those that didn't just continued to struggle.
What happened at the ankles and knees when arm carriage changed?
Making a good pole plant can make the world of difference, and can be used to help trigger effective movements as well as stabilising the upper body.
Rob, what I saw with people who responded, was that they were in control of their turns all the way through, while the ones with lazy arms were along for ride (in the back seat) from the moment they crossed the fall line. None of them were straight legged and it seemed to me to just be a lack of pressure in the front of the boots.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Gerry wrote:
while the ones with lazy arms were along for ride (in the back seat) ...
Thanks. I think that's a great way of describing it.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Find a wide, sparsely populated slope, best if it is an incresingly steep angle. Face down hill, go in a straight line. Stop when the FEEEAAAARRR kicks in - no snowploughs - parallel skis, please. Repeat getting a little faster each time and going a bit further. Repeat until you are going at maximium rate taking lifts as and when necessary. Start making your approach to the lift gate from further and further away as you progress. Repeat max rate a few times. At this point your brain will inform you that you can stop no matter how fast you are going and that you have a max speed which is survivable. Find a different slope. Repeat exercise. If you can find a buddy to practice with so much the better, otherwise group class as advised above.
As a final, optional bit do a controlled fall and roll if you feel you are up to it. I have tried to get people to learn this so that it is instinctive if they take an uncontrolled tumble. Yet to get anyone to successfuly manage it but I assure you the instinct has saved me from death/serious injury on more than one occassion and I still take a few practice tumbles at the start of the season to kick-start the reflex.
In the event you do the above, congratulations - you have just passed Ratty's boot camp . If you are a real hero, do all this off-piste without lifts climbing back to the start point and carrying a 50 kilo pack (not reccommended but after the first three or four times you are so shagged out that you can convince yourself that the FEEEAAARRR is less annoying than this exercise and find yourself skiing without the FEEEAAARRRR).
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
Find a wide, sparsely populated slope, best if it is an incresingly steep angle. Face down hill, go in a straight line. Stop when the FEEEAAAARRR kicks in - no snowploughs - parallel skis, please. Repeat getting a little faster each time and going a bit further. Repeat until you are going at maximium rate taking lifts as and when necessary. Start making your approach to the lift gate from further and further away as you progress. Repeat max rate a few times. At this point your brain will inform you that you can stop no matter how fast you are going and that you have a max speed which is survivable. Find a different slope. Repeat exercise. If you can find a buddy to practice with so much the better, otherwise group class as advised above.
My mate had me do this early in my skiing career. Actually not a bad idea. It doesn't actually fix any technique issues so is not the whole picture. But suppressing the fear does allow you to work on the technique!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I'm slightly concerned about the idea of learners straight lining anything - that's a problem many people here complain about, albeit perhaps only for people they don't know. Just sayin.
You sometimes see experts who ride in the back seat - they tend to be very fit, none of them will be carrying a heavy pack, and they generally sweat a lot. I'm not a skier, but I think getting a proper pole plant should help, and also make sure you're not using poles which are too long.
I ride with one lady who has a lazy hand - her left hand sometimes gets back. She doesn't actually ride in the back seat, so you can definitely get away with it, but it's not good style. Hand placement for snowboarders is actually also pretty important, anyone whose hands are doing naughty things is probably not very efficient.
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Poster: A snowHead
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