 Poster: A snowHead
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Missus went to Ellis Brigham to look for some new boots last summer. She was convinced they were recommending boots that were too tight. I think she is due to have another go this week. For me, it's obvious when I am bedding some new boots in and when they are simply too small. Certainly it shouldn't get worse day 2 and even worse day 3 as the OP describes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I agree, had very similar issues with my boots, fitted by specialists. Went back twice and had bits of the internal of the boot ground out, no problem from them there. 1st weeks holiday the boots were a nightmare, 2nd holiday absolutely fantastic but 3rd holiday again a bit bothersome. Then I realised that I had buckled up my boots on different settings to the previous holiday and once corrected they were fab. It sounds trivial but amazing the difference it made and now when I close up my boots for the season I remember to do them up as I wore them and that reminds me for the next season.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Full and half sizes are almost always the same size shell and liner. The XX.0 size is the XX.5 boot with a thicker foot bed in the liner to reduce volume, the outer shell will probably have XX.0 and XX.5 stamped on the parts.
As a start before looking at last width etc and tweaking shell for pressure points, tourist fit - 19mm tween heel and shell with liner removed and big toe just touching inside of shell.
Performance fit - 9mm tween heel and shell.
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when someone is in pain the simplest solution is to offer them a bigger boot...9 times out of 10 the bigger boot reduces the pain (for the first few days at least, until it packs out) unfortunately this is often the solution applied.
there is a lot of talk about shell fitting, yes it is critical but equally it is important to understand that if someone has a shell fit of 22mm it doesn't mean it is wrong nor does a 12mm shell fit automatically mean pain... shape, biomechanics, fitness, hydration, skiing style etc etc etc all go into making a good fit. from a boot fitting perspective lots of people keep going on about it being over complicated, here is how simple it really is.... round pegs fit in round holes...find suitable shaped peg! fill gaps or create space for out of the norm lumps and bumps(there are not as many boot shapes as there are feet)
in nearly 30 years of fitting boots i have probably only seen 4 or 5 people who have got boots which were seriously too short, the simple truth is unless the fitter held a gun to your head you wouldn't leave the store with them! now what i do see is a lot of people who need a little more space to accommodate weaknesses in either their biomechanics or skiing technique.
so where does it go wrong in the shop? boots do not shrink, but how you put them on, hope you stand and how you ski changes the dynamic fit of the boot, everyone's tolerance to fit tension is different and the boot fitter can only work from A) the training/protocols of the store and B) the feedback from the customer, if the customer really did think they were too small, why would they leave the store (please don't say because the boot fitter told me it would all be fine.... the boot fitter isn't wearing them!
as for the resort shop simply saying that is boot liner is shorter than a running shoe is not really a way to determine fit...what if the running shoe was too big?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting thread: i have massive calves and the first two times i went skiing i was in agony, with vascular pains in my calves, it was the worst pain i have ever experienced. For my third trip i bought boots which were moulded for my feet, they are atomic boots. However they were still bloody painful, i have been back to the shop and they tell me they dont fit me......great the same shop that told me they did! Anyway they have done the best they can and remoulded them again and they are a bit better but if you want perfect fit boots you actually have to have them made to measure......too much £££££
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@CEM, I can only say in regard of my missus experience that there was a bit of a stand off.. whereby the boot fitter was saying that it was the right size and my missus saying it was too tight. She did leave the shop without them but she is strong minded and has been skiing for 35 years and I suspect many others might have accepted the advice/word of the boot fitter. Now, of course, it may be that the boot fitter was right and that they were the right size. Maybe as you say they just needed her lumps and bumps catered for with manipulation of the boots or that it was an issue with the skiers stance or how they put the boot on. I think the point here is I could see a case of someone walking out with a pair of boots that subsequently gave them grief and gave them the perception, rightly or wrongly, that they had the wrong size boots. And occasionally, like in any profession, the boot fitter has got it wrong - especially dare I say if it is in a mainstream store.
Just to say aswell I did say to my wife that it may be the boot just needed some tweaking and the store has a comfort guarantee - but she was still unsure and left it.
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If the boot is too short you're in trouble as you cannot elongate a shell in the fitting process
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I have one foot longer than the other by a decent amount. My alpine boots are a snug fit (very). If you look at my left boot (longer foot) you can see a bulbous protrusion around my big toe where the shell has been stretched for length to accommodate the big toe (the usual way - heat the shell, insert a metal spreader and crank it open). So the comment above certainly isn't valid in all cases.
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What I'd like to know is, in the year 2016 with bright young and not so young folk out there with degrees in
Materials technology engineering etc etc do we still have to suffer when "wearing in" a pair of ski boots?
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Not everyone does. It depends a lot on how difficult your feet are, how flexible your calves/achilles are and what kind of precision fit you are aiming for. Hire shops manage to get boots to work for people. They do that by giving a comfort fit that wont get too sloppy in a week. One of the problems when you buy is that if you start with that kind of fit then the boots are likely to become very sloppy after 10 weeks of use and most keen skiers are expecting to get much more use than that out of them.
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it was the worst pain i have ever experienced
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if you want perfect fit boots you actually have to have them made to measure......too much £££££
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Not worth it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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if you want perfect fit boots you actually have to have them made to measure......too much £££££
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No... you do... I don't.
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I think a simple shell check is in order here, to determine if they are indeed too small. If the fit is ok, a few shell punches should do the trick.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think a simple shell check is in order here, to determine if they are indeed too small. If the fit is ok, a few shell punches should do the trick
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+1
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| CEM wrote: |
so where does it go wrong in the shop? boots do not shrink, but how you put them on, hope you stand and how you ski changes the dynamic fit of the boot, everyone's tolerance to fit tension is different and the boot fitter can only work from A) the training/protocols of the store and B) the feedback from the customer, if the customer really did think they were too small, why would they leave the store (please don't say because the boot fitter told me it would all be fine.... the boot fitter isn't wearing them!
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Problem is most people don't really know how a new pair of boots should fit - what is 'right tight' and too tight, how much you might expect liners to pack out, etc. Can't be many people buying boots more often than every 2nd/3rd year at most? That's a long time to forget how current boots felt at first.
Would make a great topic for an article for any of the boot fitting content marketers out there 
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I can just say from my personal experience...first time I tried on my current boots (that actually fitted "correctly"), I could ski on them for an hour at most...the 3rd time out, they were good, but needed some punching done. After that - a dream.
I ski (when in season), 3 or so times a week, so they are probably getting more use than the regular poster here.
skiboot liners take a few days to settle around your foot. If the shell doesn't fit, then that's a different story...
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You know it makes sense.
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| jedster wrote: |
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I think a simple shell check is in order here, to determine if they are indeed too small. If the fit is ok, a few shell punches should do the trick
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+1 |
The more I think about it the more I think the old guys inspection (comparing foot length with liner length) pretty much equates to a shell check. Without taking my old boots out and checking I'm assuming that there wouldn't be a significant gap between the shell and the liner. I really don't know, it's just a thought.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The more I think about it the more I think the old guys inspection (comparing foot length with liner length) pretty much equates to a shell check
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a) if that was the case why would anyone ever do a finger shell check?
b) given that manufacturers use one shell for two liners sizes, there is an obvious problem with your logic
But more usefully, if anyone is worried about the size of their boots, the first thing they should do is a shell check. In a few seconds they should have a pretty good idea whether they have a problem
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Poster: A snowHead
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They asked my wife to take her trainers off and put her ski boots next to her socked feet.
Immediately they said that the boots were too small, just by looking.
They then took the liners out, turned them upside down and compared sole of liner to sole of foot. |
Just a quick reminder about the OP.
Of course a pro can assess shell size in comparison to a foot next to it.
Of course a pro can assess a foot size in comparison to an actual liner when it is directly compared to a foot.
I'd worry if anyone is using a boot fitter that can't do this!
I'm not sure why a few people in this thread are out to try to convince others that a reputable shop that was sourced by recommendation is staffed by two old shite boot fitters.
Are they not 'arty' enough for you?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| CEM wrote: |
so where does it go wrong in the shop? boots do not shrink, but how you put them on, hope you stand and how you ski changes the dynamic fit of the boot, everyone's tolerance to fit tension is different and the boot fitter can only work from A) the training/protocols of the store and B) the feedback from the customer, if the customer really did think they were too small, why would they leave the store (please don't say because the boot fitter told me it would all be fine.... the boot fitter isn't wearing them!
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Problem is most people don't really know how a new pair of boots should fit - what is 'right tight' and too tight, how much you might expect liners to pack out, etc. Can't be many people buying boots more often than every 2nd/3rd year at most? That's a long time to forget how current boots felt at first. |
This ^
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My wife has plug race boots with a fair bit of work done on them (punching etc). Normally she says they are the best boots she ever had, except last week when she had terrible pain. One reasonable explanation was that women's feet sometimes swell on an ~monthly schedule. So basically there are plenty of variables in boot fitting!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks for everyone's input, will update with any news.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 28-01-16 22:27; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I got my boots from CEM four years ago. If I remember rightly at the time he advised that the boots should be a tight fit but not that they should hurt at any stage. I used them for one hour at the snow dome and they were agonising. I went back to CEM with some photos of my feet taken straight after I removed the boots. He made some very slight (but obviously precise) adjustments and I was left with a boot that is tight, secure and has never given me a second of pain. In my opinion this is as it should be for the once a year recreational skier such as myself.
My best decision was to use a boot fitter with a deserved reputation. My second best decision was to test them in a snow dome before I wasted valuable holiday time.
Thanks Colin.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I got my boots from CEM... If I remember rightly at the time he advised that the boots should be a tight fit but not that they should hurt at any stage. I used them for one hour at the snow dome and they were agonising. I went back to CEM with some photos of my feet taken straight after I removed the boots. He made some very slight (but obviously precise) adjustments and I was left with a boot that is tight, secure and has never given me a second of pain. In my opinion this is as it should be for the once a year recreational skier such as myself.
My best decision was to use a boot fitter with a deserved reputation. My second best decision was to test them in a snow dome before I wasted valuable holiday time.
Thanks Colin.
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Me too - but it took 4 trips to Colin and 1 trip to Tamworth, 1 to MK and 2 to Hemel to get the end result. 
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| jedster wrote: |
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The more I think about it the more I think the old guys inspection (comparing foot length with liner length) pretty much equates to a shell check
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a) if that was the case why would anyone ever do a finger shell check?
b) given that manufacturers use one shell for two liners sizes, there is an obvious problem with your logic
But more usefully, if anyone is worried about the size of their boots, the first thing they should do is a shell check. In a few seconds they should have a pretty good idea whether they have a problem |
a) apparently not all boot fitters do - read the op.
b) I'm assuming liner sole length = approx shell length (near as) for both liners in the same shell, other wise the shorter liner would slide backwards and forewords in the shell by about half a centimetre. Liners might not be the same length or volume inside (it's suggested above the liners might even be the same with the extra volume taken out with footbeds).
Unless you know better....
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i think the point here is being missed a bit, the customer is not happy! regardless of what a resort shop says (let's be honest if you are in pain you want to hear they are wrong in some way, and as a tourist you are at risk of being sold to) the first thing is to contact the shop who did the original fitting and work with them.
as i think we can establish from the posts above everyone's feet are different, everyone's flexibility, hydration, level of fluid retention, technique, tolerance to fit tension is very different So everyone needs a varying solution, for some people this is a straight out the box boot on foot type fit, for others it is a bigger boot for some it is a smaller boot, a shell check is only the first part of a process to get a foot seated correctly in the appropriate boot
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I'm assuming liner sole length = approx shell length (near as) for both liners in the same shell, other wise the shorter liner would slide backwards and forewords in the shell by about half a centimetre.
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er no.
Your foot is not held in place by your liner pressing against the shell at the toe!
You flex and the pressure around your instep/lower shin pushes your heel into the heel pocket. If that is not the way it works for you then there is something wrong with your technique.
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a) apparently not all boot fitters do - read the op
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Yes I know. Did you read my question? I said why would ANYONE not SOMEONE? My point - it is quicker to size up foot length against liner length. If that was adequate why bother with a conventional shell check. I'm not suggesting that very experienced bootfitters who really know the lasts and sizing of individual boots can't do it by eye. I'm just saying that they need a lot of information stored in their heads to do that which ordinary mortals (and most staff in ski shops) won't have.
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| CEM wrote: |
i think the point here is being missed a bit, the customer is not happy! regardless of what a resort shop says (let's be honest if you are in pain you want to hear they are wrong in some way, and as a tourist you are at risk of being sold to) the first thing is to contact the shop who did the original fitting and work with them.
as i think we can establish from the posts above everyone's feet are different, everyone's flexibility, hydration, level of fluid retention, technique, tolerance to fit tension is very different So everyone needs a varying solution, for some people this is a straight out the box boot on foot type fit, for others it is a bigger boot for some it is a smaller boot, a shell check is only the first part of a process to get a foot seated correctly in the appropriate boot |
^ This
Plus remember it is your feet and you need to understand how a boot should feel. A bootfitter needs input from us to get the correct fit and the more knowledgeable we can be the more information we can give the bootfitter the easier their job.
Now admitted a beginner buying their first pair of boots is not going to be that knowledgeable but then at that level they will still want something with a bit more emphasis on comfort, but as our skiing ability improves so should our knowledge and understanding of the equipment we use.
There is always a lot of criticism of bootfitters/shops when boots fit poorly but is it all justified?
Now I would not say I am not in the same league as CEM more like not on the same planet he really knows his stuff, but I have in the past done a lot of bootfitting both for customer purchases and rental and it is amazing how many have absolutely no clue. I have stepped in when a customer complained a boot is way too tight, take the liner out do checks, do checks on the shell and the boot is not too tight it is too big they want a boot to fit better than a comfy pair of slippers straight out of the box and will not accept liners compress etc. Most you can eventually explain to them but some just do not want to listen and those I point blank refused to sell them the boots.
Now at no point am I saying this is the case with the OP but people do need to understand at least the basics when buying boots, you would not buy a nice little 2 seater when you need a 7 seater family hauler etc, you would do some research when buying a car. Ski boots are even more critical and the better you get, or the more unusual your feet the more you need to understand and learn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Several years ago at a ski show Mr Basil bought some boots from Ellis Brigham. She wore them for two weeks that season and for a week the following season and the boots were giving her pain. Without realising, the boots she was wearing was 1/2 size smaller than the one she was measured for and as we had the original fitting slip we thought we would try our luck and return them. We emailed EB and had a personal reply from Mr Brigham (can't remember his first name) who was more than happy to have the boots returned/exchanged as he considered it the company's responsibility to ensure the boots were fitted correctly. We exchanged them at Bristol and with the newer boot being in the sale we also had a £20 refund.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Missus has been to Ellis Brigham this afternoon.
Salomon: not stiff enough
Lange: bad fit for her feet
Technic: bad fit for her feet
Atomic: Boots right for her, shell right for her (Mondo 24.0 iirc) but inners too tight. And apparently Atomic do not do the old half size up inners.
So the fitter said he would order a 25 in the Atomic but expected the shell to be too big. Option of sticking a 25 inner in a 24 shell not possible.
Suggested, quite correctly and nobly, that she should go to a competitor for other options.
She was pleased that her previous reservations about the Atomics were correct. Seems she can't get her feet fully flat in the inners. Also now makes sense that the previous boot fitter suggested cutting through the inner to allow the foot to spread. Something wasn't quite clear why it was being suggested and wasn't, understandly, too keen on.
It's a complicated business for sure...
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Quick trip over to Brackley layne?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Layne, custom liner in the Atomic shell? Zipfit for example.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| @Layne, custom liner in the Atomic shell? Zipfit for example. |
Seems a bit crazy to buy a boot and then immediately replace the liner.. or?...?
I think her old boot shells are too old to fit to those.
Can you get a shell with the zipfits?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| @Layne, custom liner in the Atomic shell? Zipfit for example. |
Seems a bit crazy to buy a boot and then immediately replace the liner.. or?...?
I think her old boot shells are too old to fit to those.
Can you get a shell with the zipfits? |
Custom liners are significantly different to the stock liners than come with new boots, allowing a much better hold of the foot all round but without any excessive pressure points. I bought a new pair of boots this week (from CEM who has now fitted me four times I think) and didn't even bother taking the stock liners home with me. The Zipfit liners from my previous boots were switched across to the new shells, and with a little bit of moulding of the shells plus some stretching in the forefoot area and I was good to go. Having used custom liners for about a decade I wouldn't dream of going back to stock liners.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Quote:
I got my boots from CEM... If I remember rightly at the time he advised that the boots should be a tight fit but not that they should hurt at any stage. I used them for one hour at the snow dome and they were agonising. I went back to CEM with some photos of my feet taken straight after I removed the boots. He made some very slight (but obviously precise) adjustments and I was left with a boot that is tight, secure and has never given me a second of pain. In my opinion this is as it should be for the once a year recreational skier such as myself.
My best decision was to use a boot fitter with a deserved reputation. My second best decision was to test them in a snow dome before I wasted valuable holiday time.
Thanks Colin.
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Me too - except I used Rivington Alpine cos I live up north. It was a revelation - took 30 mins just to measure up my feet, and I was there for 4 1/2 hours as lots of standing for 20 minutes waiting for liners to adapt with body temperature/cool down between adjusts etc - can't see the likes of Snow and Rock having time to do this. And the guys feed you coffee and offered to do a bacon sandwich run and know all sorts about skiing and biking...
A couple of snow dome trips with very numb feet as they bedded in then an adjust straight after - turning up at the shop with sore sports marker penned….But if they hadn't warned me the liners would compress by at least 5% I'd have been very unhappy at this point...
Then a three week trip when they were sore for the first hour on the first few days, but after a little playing with the buckles let me ski happily all day, every day. Never had that before - either my boots have been like slippers or the soles of my feet have gone numb after 30 mins.
I love my new boots. Only issue is they fit so well that they have to be warm to get on! And they are pink... 
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| k wrote: |
| can't see the likes of Snow and Rock having time to do this |
I had mine done at S&R and was there for about 2.5-3 hours, at which point I was happy with the fit, I'm sure that if I'd needed more adjustment then I'd have got it. The only times they've hurt me is when I've done them up too tight in the morning.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, but did they supply bacon sandwiches if required? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| @Layne, custom liner in the Atomic shell? Zipfit for example. |
Seems a bit crazy to buy a boot and then immediately replace the liner.. or?...?
I think her old boot shells are too old to fit to those.
Can you get a shell with the zipfits? |
Custom liners are significantly different to the stock liners than come with new boots, allowing a much better hold of the foot all round but without any excessive pressure points. I bought a new pair of boots this week (from CEM who has now fitted me four times I think) and didn't even bother taking the stock liners home with me. The Zipfit liners from my previous boots were switched across to the new shells, and with a little bit of moulding of the shells plus some stretching in the forefoot area and I was good to go. Having used custom liners for about a decade I wouldn't dream of going back to stock liners. |
Interesting. Seems crazy that boot companies spend a lot of time and effort designing and manufacturing inners and get it so wrong.
One thing that concerns me is the cost. I am seeing £200+ after already forking out for a spanking new pair of boots.
Or is all this just about how imperfect your feet are and/or how much "performance" you want from your boots?
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FAQ
