The other evening, my wife and I were reminiscing about some of our trips to the US and Canada back in the 90's. As we DIY our trips now we have not really looked at ski brochures for a long time. Out of curiosity, we had a look on some of the main TO's websites and were amazed at how few resorts they now seem to offer. For example, when we went to Stowe with Inghams we could also have gone to Sunday River, Killington, New Hampshire and a few other New England resorts all with the same TO. Now they have no East Coast US resorts at all. The same seems to be true of Neilson , Crystal, Thomson etc who have all significantly reduced their offerings in both US and Canada (no Jackson Hole, Alyeska, Copper Mountain , Kimberley etc etc)
Wondering what has driven this contraction. Are people less adventurous? Do people just DIY now? Did the resorts price themselves out of the UK market?
Any thoughts?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Our first trip was to a small Austrian resort which disappeared from the (Inghams) brochure the following year. We chose it as ideal for beginners with comfortable, roomy, self catering accommodation and a thermal swimming pool in the garden. It was great. But presumably too small and obscure and with no après ski for your average Brit skier. there are hundreds of lovely places throughout the Alps, and no doubt elsewhere, ideal for exploration by DIY travellers.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This runs alongside the disappearing tour operators - Swiss Travel Service, first amalgamated into Neilson and then gone altogether!
Anyone remember Swans? One of their biggest resort offerings was Brand in Austria. Not sure any operator features that one any more.
Re the OP - long haul TOs have nothing to offer - the rigid offering of 1 week/2 week in a fixed location makes little sense in a market where you can design your own length of stay/self drive etc
Kolsass Weer, near Innsbruck - I went twice by coach with NAT in the early 80's. Very limited skiing, the only bars were in the (three) hotels. Two great weeks, and soooooo much drink! The second time I went was my 19th birthday, and somehow I played in an oompah band.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
Kolsass Weer
Crikey, I went there once too and drove up there one day last summer just for old time's sake. Neilson got bought by coach operator NAT and piled tons of customers in there, virtually "owned" the place. Just 2 lifts, one half way, one to the top, if I remember right! Huge fun though.
Back then used to eagerly await the tour op brochures around June/July time. Used to walk out of the travel agents with a huge pile of them - Thomson, Enterprise, Horizon, Blue Sky, Global, Neilson, Swans, Inghams, Cosmos and others I've forgotten. Ski The American Dream were the big ones to USA. Ah, jumpers for goalposts.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Pruman, I remember perusing many of those brochures, for days and days, and compiling complicated check lists, and deciding on Westendorf. Was gutted to find there were no holidays available for our January dates and having to go back to the drawing board.
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Horizon...that brings back memories, flying with Air 2000 to Turin, then on to Cervinia (don't think that's disappeared from tour ops programmes just yet! )
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Quote:
Wondering what has driven this contraction. Are people less adventurous? Do people just DIY now? Did the resorts price themselves out of the UK market?
I'd say the vast majority now DIY their ski trips. Cheap flights, better online information, personal recommendations from sites like snowheads, easier online booking and saving money by cutting out the middlemen have all contributed to the move away from tour operators.
It leaves the tour operators having to focus their efforts on the relatively few locations where it's worth their while having a rep and laying on coaches, etc.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Hourmont from helping my Dad run school ski trips for many years.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@olderscot,
Quote:
I'd say the vast majority now DIY their ski trips. Cheap flights, better online information, personal recommendations from sites like snowheads, easier online booking and saving money by cutting out the middlemen have all contributed to the move away from tour operators.
I think the number doing DIY may have increased greatly, but I'd be absolutely astonished if, for UK holidaymakers, it was anywhere close to 50%. Amongst SH's it may be, but not for Billy Punter.
I do think that TO's have focused their efforts on a smaller number of resorts, for business reasons it makes perfect sense. Also, fashions in ski resorts wax and wane. If we'd looked at a previous incarnation of SnowHeads from the 60's or 70's we'd see it was all about Gstaad, Kitzbuhel, Andermatta etc. and barely a mention of Val Thorens, Flaine, Avoriaz etc. that dominate the market today.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Well, judging from trip reports on SHs Most DIY skiers go to the same narrow range of resorts as the tour operators.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I wasn't sure myself when I said 'the vast majority' but in my experience and what I see from friends that was my gut feeling.
I've just looked for some data and it looks like I was well wrong.
I must admit I find that very hard to believe and can't help wondering if they're losing sight of independent travellers but this what their analysis is saying.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@dking2001,
We where saying exactly the same thing last night whilst looking for holidays.
We have been to Kimberly and Copper with Crystal but they no longer go there.
There are some Specialist smaller company's that can sort out trips but it looks as though the larger companies won't do it........obviously doesn't pay for them to go there.
It may suggest that doing the trip over there isn't as popular for Brits.......guess it makes it better for us who will travel.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
endoman wrote:
Hourmont from helping my Dad run school ski trips for many years.
Hourmont still going as Hourmont Total Ski for school groups. They feature a large Austrian programme including several resorts which don't feature in too many tour op brochures: Gerlitz, Dachstein West, Heiligenblut, Oberlungau, Matrei and my particular favourite, Pfunds - where I spent a very happy holiday in 1974.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
[quote="LOTA"]
endoman wrote:
Hourmont from helping my Dad run school ski trips for many years.
I went to Ravascletto in Italy with Hourmont when I was at school. Lovely little resort with a cable car up to Mt Zoncolan.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
LOTA wrote:
endoman wrote:
Hourmont from helping my Dad run school ski trips for many years.
Hourmont still going as Hourmont Total Ski for school groups. They feature a large Austrian programme including several resorts which don't feature in too many tour op brochures: Gerlitz, Dachstein West, Heiligenblut, Oberlungau, Matrei and my particular favourite, Pfunds - where I spent a very happy holiday in 1974.
Have a lot of fond memories going to Pfunds as a kid myself. We stayed in the Post hotel when most Brits who went there went by coach, but as parents drove out we where treated as European not Brits. Really made the holidays for us
Well, judging from trip reports on SHs Most DIY skiers go to the same narrow range of resorts as the tour operators.
This is a very good point. Not sure how people can 'discover' new resorts really other than going the Ski Shows and speaking to some of the less well know resorts there. That's how we found out about Maria Alm which is now a regular haunt (we were most disappointed when it appeared in Crystal brochure a couple of years back).
Perhaps I'll start a thread for resort recommendations that are not covered by the main TOs.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I arrange a group holiday every year and always did it DIY, the reason I did was mainly the pound was strong against the euro making it equivalent or cheaper than TO's. When the £ "mini crashed" against the euro I did about 4 years with TO's again as the numbers just did not stack up, but now the £ is strong again it's back to DIY. The advantages of DIY against TO's are mainly in having your own private transfer and being able to pick good value, well positioned accommodation which are easy to find and deal with direct.
So in my view the main reason the DIY dropped off was the strength of the £ against the euro, whilst it stays at around 1.3 euros to the £ it's DIY every time.
The other reason DIY is better for me is that the TO's major on the popular anglophile French resorts and our group prefer Austria, so lets hope the £ stays strong!
Never thought I would see that on Snowheads. Also my first trip (with Snowcoach in 1981).
There was a bus up the mountain for the more experienced. Bullet ice on third day - still wondering how my wife (and I) got past that, as well as playing Bridge into the (late) night. Great fun evenings.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 22-01-16 18:50; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@dking2001, you can browse bergfex.com by country and then region. Find all sorts of places you've never heard of. A thread here about non-mainstream areas would gather hundreds of replies.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@dking2001,
Quote:
Not sure how people can 'discover' new resorts really other than going the Ski Shows and speaking to some of the less well know resorts there.
There are quite a few ways now with the internet and stuff, snowHeads itself is a mine on information. All you really need though is a map and the internet.
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Smaller US/Can resorts are disappearing from TO brochures because fewer Brits are going skiing and, of those who ski, fewer are going to North America. I suspect the cost of flights, fuelled in part by Gordon Brown's Airport Passenger Duty, are to blame. Currency movements haven't helped, either, although the £ has been stronger this year.
Googling for historic copies of the annual Crystal Ski Industry report finds that, amongst Brits, North American skiing peaked in 2005/06. The total TO market was 708,000 skiers, and North America took 7.9% of the market - c56K skiers. In 2013/14, that had declined to 3.8% of a market of 500,500 - a paltry 19K skiers or a decline of 77%. In the face of that kind of decline, I'm surprised that so many TOs are still clinging on.
Interestingly, Crystal's data suggests that, contra to the opinions often expressed here, DIY trips have declined more sharply than TO trips: 253K trips last year compared with 384K trips in 2007/08. I make that a 29% decline for the TOs and a 34% decline for independent travel.
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Whats driving the decline, I thought skiing was becoming more popular ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@dublin2, no, at one end the baby boomers that fuelled the growth are dropping off, families are mainly priced out and the young end is suffering from huge decline in school skiing and affordability. Look around the airport or resort next time and count grey heads v. young dudes. Outside of school holidays and the big student resorts, it's an old guys sport and many of those are heading for the golf course. Big, popular resorts are still popular but many smaller unfashionable ones are like ghost towns half the time.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Hmm. My own impression from my French area, hardly known by Brits, is that participation at all age ranges is pretty healthy. Loads of kids in ski school in holiday weeks, school kids at other times. In both alpine and xc areas. Plenty of young and impressive skaters in the latter. An an entire school group, looked about 7 - 10 doing XC today. There have been new or upgraded lifts almost every year since 2002 and new apartment developments and beautiful traditionally built individual chalets too. It doesn't feel like an area, or an industry, in decline. But perhaps my view is unsupported by hard numbers.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Pruman wrote:
@dublin2, no, at one end the baby boomers that fuelled the growth are dropping off, families are mainly priced out and the young end is suffering from huge decline in school skiing and affordability. Look around the airport or resort next time and count grey heads v. young dudes. Outside of school holidays and the big student resorts, it's an old guys sport and many of those are heading for the golf course. Big, popular resorts are still popular but many smaller unfashionable ones are like ghost towns half the time.
My observations would disagree with that.
When I went to Austria first week of January (so just outside holiday period), the biggest demographic in the check-in queues by far was couples and groups of people in their 20s and 30s.
There were certainly a fair number of oldies like me, but not nearly as many as the younger people.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The stars I quoted were for British skiers. I have no idea whether a similar decline has affected other nations. It's also unlikely that any decline would apply equally across all resorts and all weeks of the season.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I just can't see why you'd book TO for a North America trip when its so easy to sort out plentiful accomodation etc yourself. Our first trip to Banff was booked through a TO, all it included was flight, car hire and accomodation. All things I could sort out on the internet for not much longer than to book their holiday. This time for Canada the Crystal price for flights/transfer/accomodation was far, far higher than DIY - so even if I'd got as far as looking at ski hire, passes etc I can't see how it would have been cheaper. I've been emailing the resorts and skis schools about lessons etc, which is so easy to do without the language barrier and I know exactly what I'm booking.
So perhaps thats why a lot of North American resorts have dropped off the TO radar, its just as easy to book flights and find accomodation yourself?
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@TommyJ, true, it's easy to book in NA yourself with the internet and a common language. The biggest problem I've encountered is American corporations' love of differential prices and market segmentation. Finding a decent deal takes a huge amount of research, and that means it's pretty much impossible to compare prices in different resorts.
I've tended to cut through the mess by comparing prices from a couple of NA specialists like American Ski Classics and Ski Independence, and then phoning the resort to ask for their best deal. If you hunt for ages you can sometimes undercut their prices, but it's difficult and usually marginal.
Interestingly, I've almost always had the best results by using a phone rather than a keyboard. That's especially true of the resorts themselves - they often don't put their best deals online.
IME, the big UK TOs are never competitive on price in NA unless you snag a last minute bargain.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
We've only done DIY, but that's because I seem to have very specific ideas on where I want to go and when, don't want 6am flights etc. I've looked at TO offerings, but I always get the feeling that I'm subsidising others and paying for things we don't need. For ones like ClubMed I'm sure the experience is great (or I would hope it is for the cost!) but we don't need child care, wife doesn't ski so don't need pass, lessons etc. TO always seems to be a grand or more than I think I can do it by booking early etc.
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