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When will rear-entry boots return?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
speed098 wrote:
...we are talking a precision sport a sport with high loads and to me rear entry would be like trying to compete in a F1 race in a VW Tourag it may look great may work well in some conditions but it can never hold a perfect line at high speed, it will never instil the confidence in a corner like an F1 car will.


Nail on head.

Recreational skiers believing the marketing hype that they need a precision tool to ski slopes and snow conditions which they will never ski.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Mike Pow, I had a pair of Salomons at the start of the 90's. They weren't awful, but they weren't good either. They never were tight enough to ski bumps at reasonable speed without my foot felling loose in them. A bit of side piste that had some wind blown crust on top? Forget about it. Moving to a pair of Nordica Grand Prix was great. The Lange WC 120 (I have narrow feet) that came after were even better. The Salomons really worked at moderate speed, on a well groomed piste. Holding a carve with a bit more angulation? no.
I have narrow feet and I'm not a bad skier. I have been skiing since the age of 6 or 7, started in leather boots, that was the available kids gear in Romania at the time. I can tell you that rear entries are better than leather boots. And rear entry boots would mean a downgrade to my skiing level and enjoyment.
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Quite possibly.

However taking the fundamental design of a rear entry boot combined with modern materials could be very interesting.

The Alpina boot in the video looks to be that.

I used to ski in a Lange plug boot (150 flex) and they were great. Upright cuff and light.

Then went to a Full Tilt Bumblebee which was lighter again, much softer fore/aft but pleny stiff enough laterally.

Far easier to get in and out. Way more comfortable. Easy to walk in.

Now in a Dynafit TLT 5 touring boot. Even lighter, even softer fore/aft but stiff laterally.

They're built for walking, for comfort (if you have a narrow foot - there are now wider last boots available) and have more than enough performance for the down.

A hybrid of all these ideas would serve the recreational skier far better IMHO.

And it seems more manufacturers are going in that direction.

If I get a chance to try those Alpinas I will. And will report back Happy
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@David Goldsmith,
Quote:

you've probably only seen rear-entry boots on the feet of happy comfortable skiers

Filled with gritty soil, rear entry boots make an unusual plant holder. Ideal for a pink or trailing geranium, in the alpine section of the garden of course. Old skis quite eye catching for making a wigwam and growing sweet peas or clematis up. All good recycling. I wonder if Alan Titchmarsh would approve?
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Quote:

Recreational skiers believing the marketing hype


Really? you think that ever happens? (compacts, red Dynastar bobbles, rocker, etc. ... Happy )

I am 100% sure you have a very valid point. I don't think rear or mid entry boots are the answer (as I am also 100% sure you'll discover for yourself if you get to try the Alpinas). But Idris I think (and as you demonstrate using TLTs) really does nail it. Modern AT boots are really getting to the point of being quite as supportive as most people need, and lightweight and comfortable (if perhaps needing fitting for some).

I've skied "race" boots since I was 12 (a disturbing 37 years ago) but borrowed a pair of TLT 5s for a day's touring (on 70mm touring skis) a couple of seasons back. The 70mm skis were a joy in (deep) powder and the TLTs were entirely reassuring on blue ice.
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Yep.

Just curious to see how the Alpinas go Very Happy

I got my partner Nerys into the lightest weight, most comfortable, warmest, most upright alpine boot I could find when she started - a Head beginner boot with a 90 flex.

Had it moulded and got a custom foot bed.

5 winters of holidays later she's improved from a never ever to a mid-thigh powder skier, in the same boots.

Never had any foot, ankle, shin, calf problems. And more than enough performance.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 28-11-15 11:54; edited 1 time in total
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@Mike Pow, full review please. pix and vids too. ;.)
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Mike Pow wrote:
speed098 wrote:
...we are talking a precision sport a sport with high loads and to me rear entry would be like trying to compete in a F1 race in a VW Tourag it may look great may work well in some conditions but it can never hold a perfect line at high speed, it will never instil the confidence in a corner like an F1 car will.


Nail on head.

Recreational skiers believing the marketing hype that they need a precision tool to ski slopes and snow conditions which they will never ski.


I have a very narrow foot. The rear entry no matter what I tried would never close round my foot in a way that would eliminate lateral movement. Occasionally I did use a pair to see if they had changed but they never did fit me. The amount of problems I had to help solve with good intermediates and above who had their own rear entry boots proportionately far out numbered the issues with 4 buckle boots.
Now maybe new design may solve these problems for some but there is a great old phrase.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it"

And for me at present that applies so please don't class me as a recreational skier believing hype I was more critical back then of boot fitting than almost anyone else I knew and would even in the 80's and 90's drive anywhere in the country.

A bad trades man blames their tools a good one makes sure they have the right tool for the job I regularly spent 8-10 hours a day in ski boots skiing in all weather walking up and down numerous flights of steps they had to fit right or I could not do my job to the best of my ability.

Oh and I did like the Raichlie Flexon boots but never changed to them because Lange fitted better than anything else I tried. The Dynafit 3F comp where not really that stiff a boot and loved them. Though the Lange ZR where the stiffest boots I have ever worn closely followed by the Head Raptors I have now but other than getting them on and off they where great yes I had to undo buckles on lifts if free skiing but could just micro adjust them when not free skiing so they gave just a fraction more room for all day comfort, No rear entry could come close to that. So if you try some and find they do please let us know but until technology solves the issues I have I remain with my original post.
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speed098 wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
speed098 wrote:
...we are talking a precision sport a sport with high loads and to me rear entry would be like trying to compete in a F1 race in a VW Tourag it may look great may work well in some conditions but it can never hold a perfect line at high speed, it will never instil the confidence in a corner like an F1 car will.


Nail on head.

Recreational skiers believing the marketing hype that they need a precision tool to ski slopes and snow conditions which they will never ski.


I have a very narrow foot. The rear entry no matter what I tried would never close round my foot in a way that would eliminate lateral movement. Occasionally I did use a pair to see if they had changed but they never did fit me. The amount of problems I had to help solve with good intermediates and above who had their own rear entry boots proportionately far out numbered the issues with 4 buckle boots.


I've had the same problem with recreational skiers skiing in boots way too stiff and way too performance oriented for their ability.


Quote:
Now maybe new design may solve these problems for some but there is a great old phrase.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it"

And for me at present that applies so please don't class me as a recreational skier believing hype I was more critical back then of boot fitting than almost anyone else I knew and would even in the 80's and 90's drive anywhere in the country.

A bad trades man blames their tools a good one makes sure they have the right tool for the job I regularly spent 8-10 hours a day in ski boots skiing in all weather walking up and down numerous flights of steps they had to fit right or I could not do my job to the best of my ability.


Wasn't referring to you. I referenced recreational skiers who buy and use a tool that is unsuitable for the terrain and snow they ski.

Quote:
Oh and I did like the Raichlie Flexon boots but never changed to them because Lange fitted better than anything else I tried. The Dynafit 3F comp where not really that stiff a boot and loved them. Though the Lange ZR where the stiffest boots I have ever worn closely followed by the Head Raptors I have now but other than getting them on and off they where great yes I had to undo buckles on lifts if free skiing but could just micro adjust them when not free skiing so they gave just a fraction more room for all day comfort, No rear entry could come close to that. So if you try some and find they do please let us know but until technology solves the issues I have I remain with my original post.


Will do if I get the opportunity Smile
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now, @Mike Pow, wink just what do you mean by "recreational skier" ? I have no qualifications and do no skiing for remuneration. Am I your "recreationalist"?
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Mike Pow wrote:
... I've had the same problem with recreational skiers skiing in boots way too stiff and way too performance oriented for their ability.
I think that's the fundamental thing. You can't say that one tool is better than another unless you also specify the job it's supposed to do. And the best approach for one may not be best for another.

Rear Entry would certainly be better with more modern materials. But then standard boots are also getting better with those same materials. So it comes back to what you're trying to achieve. Who will buy these and why?

I don't think the answer is "existing experts". Hence there is a marketing barrier: it's going to be hard to sell something which is seen as being for novices, even to novices (which is most skiers at a resort). I can't remember how Salomon did it, but their marketing machine was king and they did manage to sell the concept of "expert" boots somehow. Did people actually race on Salomon rear entry, and (importantly) were those stock kit, or simply made to look like it?

--
Riding in the back country or at a resort are not "a precision sport" in the sense of the original quote, and "recreational" is set against that. FIS gear isn't generally the correct tool for recreational use. Anyone who'd tried to ride GS gear on a public piste would know this. That's if we're talking about snow sports; internet willy waving is a different sport NehNeh
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Quote:
Did people actually race on Salomon rear entry, and (importantly) were those stock kit, or simply made to look like it?

IIRC, Marc Girardelli, during the 1980s.

edit. Just checked. It is mentioned in page 1 of this thread
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I first skied in 1987, and the "slap and clack" of rear entry boots of those walking through the village was one of my first memories of skiing. Unfortunately, due to a relatively minor club left foot, I was never been able to wear rear entry boots due to a very high instep. I remember the hire shop affiliated with the travel agent only had one pair of old front entry 3 buckle boots in my size, as almost their entire hire selection was Salmon and Nordica rear entry.

My overriding memory of those using rear entry boots, was pain across the fore foot from the cable, and a loose heel. But that may just have been from very tired hire boots.

Anyway it did not put me off, and the weekend after I got back, I was in London getting a pair of Dynafit 3F (in white and fluro green rolling eyes), and I have skied every year since.
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You know it makes sense.
jtr wrote:
Quote:
Did people actually race on Salomon rear entry, and (importantly) were those stock kit, or simply made to look like it?

IIRC, Marc Girardelli, during the 1980s.

edit. Just checked. It is mentioned in page 1 of this thread


Yes but Marc switched to Lange mid/late 80's and became the major star for them till Tomba. ( just quick edit not sure exactly what year ).


To answer another post Salomon plugged the aerodynamics of the boots and this appealed to some FK skiers. If it had not been for the level of marketing Salomon reached I do not think the rear entry boots would be discussed quite the way they are now. Maybe they would have gone the same way as the Look 7007 Integral boot/binding system
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under a new name wrote:
now, @Mike Pow, wink just what do you mean by "recreational skier" ? I have no qualifications and do no skiing for remuneration. Am I your "recreationalist"?


Ha ha Very Happy

A recreational skier in my mind is someone who skis once - if they're lucky twice - a season for a week at a time.

They love the ski holiday.

They may take lessons but most don't.

They ski predominantly blue and red runs with the occasional black thrown in because of bravado, folly or peer pressure.

They rarely ski bumps or off-piste although they aspire to ski both.

In my mind, the vast majority of package holiday British skiers.

The people reading and contributing to this forum may be part of this group, but I would suspect that they would be in the minority.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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jtr wrote:
IIRC, Marc Girardelli, during the 1980s. ... Just checked. It is mentioned in page 1 of this thread

Good recall. So one, perhaps more.

Klammer used 3F Comp S, I seem to remember (because I had the boots). Although if it's like snowboarding then no one rides consumer stuff anyway, so he had boots which looked graphically like mine. Arrogant people like me, who do not do sports incompetently, sneered at rear entry: they were kind of obviously not great.

---
I do think Salomon's marketing machine was impressive. I wonder who drove that. These days, I'm not getting the same marketing drive from anyone really, in the business. They dominated.

---
Snowboarding has huge boot issues, there the equivalent of the rear entry boot still dominates, and it hugely affects what most people can do with the equipment. The next time you see a snowboarder who can't hold an edge, think about what she's using to do it.
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What I loved about my SX 91 Equipes was the super-fast forward flex adjustment, hated the fit and performance though..........
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Rear entry design is such a good idea it would be great to see it developed fully again. Would make alpine skiing much easier for a lot of people who have trouble putting boots on and walking in them. Rear entry boots were also much lighter than top entry boots.
Just need someone to design rear entry tele boots and we will have something akin to slippers Laughing
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@philwig,
Quote:
Anyone who'd tried to ride GS gear on a public piste would know this


I frequently am found on full bore FIS GS and SG skis on - and off - piste. No worries.

But I like your snowboarding points, yes, I can see the issues.

@Mike Pow, ha ha ha, yep.
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I am afraid that age comes to all of us, I loved the rear entry Salomon SX91 because their was only one buckle to do up, that was a godsend for those of us with arthritic fingers.

I find modern boots are so difficult to put on, take off and adjust with their 4 buckles, I currently have a boot with only two buckles and even find them difficult. If they ever bring back similar rear entry boots I will be first in the queue
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And remember "power straps" were an aftermarket add on.
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Anyone skied these?


http://youtube.com/v/_obdHGcO08A

http://www.fall-line.co.uk/soft-boots-for-hard-skiers/
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@Mike Pow, funnily enough I was talking to a friend of mine about these just last week! He’s had a pair for a little over a year, which I didn't know. He had a few problems with pressure points and damage in his feet (now corrected with surgery), and ended up with a pair of these – he really rates them! Swiss guy, very good and regular skier, and very happy indeed with these. I've not been out on the slopes with him in these yet, but hopefully will for a day or so over the Christmas period.

I thought they would have less ‘performance’ than traditional boots – but he says he’s not noticed any step down as yet. He might have a different view in the future though after the latest set of surgery and pushing it a bit harder... But at the minute he says he has no intention of going back to normal boots!
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essex wrote:
And remember "power straps" were an aftermarket add on.


Remember driving upto Newcastle to get power straps fitted to my Lange ZR.
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Nordica still make them for the rental market
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@Mike Pow,

The do look interesting, but very pricey at £650 for the MC3. This combined with the Raichle/Fulltilt may be a really good alternative. I just worry about the single buckle closer around the leg maybe two would be a better option combined with the Fulltilt tongues.
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@Mike Pow, refers to my point above about there being certain things that need to be connected and thus some that don't. I like the concept. There's also a Swiss (I think) brand Dahu with a very similar exo-skeleton concept. https://www.dahusports.com/site/

Seem to have fairly sound retail coverage.


http://youtube.com/v/-xtsAqrnuHo
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@under a new name,

Now that's starting to look better. They are approx. £200 cheaper and if they made the tongue replaceable so stiffer/softer, higher/lower then this could be a great step forward.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Mike Pow wrote:
speed098 wrote:
...we are talking a precision sport a sport with high loads and to me rear entry would be like trying to compete in a F1 race in a VW Tourag it may look great may work well in some conditions but it can never hold a perfect line at high speed, it will never instil the confidence in a corner like an F1 car will.


Nail on head.

Recreational skiers believing the marketing hype that they need a precision tool to ski slopes and snow conditions which they will never ski.


Yep. The number of wobbling intermediates I see painfully removing their 120+ flex quasi-race boots never ceases to amaze me. People are upsold the most stupid things by ski shops (S+R seem to be the worst for this). At best, they waste money. At worst, it can ruin the sport for them.
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But, @Harry Flashman, there is a need, particularly in these days of egregious pie consumption for at least adequate support.

It's just as bad to see poor 80 flex boots (as often also sold by said shops) collapsing under the strain of the eaters-of-too-many-pies.
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under a new name wrote:
But, @Harry Flashman, there is a need, particularly in these days of egregious pie consumption for at least adequate support.

It's just as bad to see poor 80 flex boots (as often also sold by said shops) collapsing under the strain of the eaters-of-too-many-pies.



Ah. You've obviously been watching me ski.

Drat.
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I have come up with the perfect compromise. I have 130 flex boots and am a completely rubbish skier. When wobbling down the piste I have them fully undone and if anyone comments I respond with "I am doing drills with open boots". Then at the end of the day in the bar before heading back to the hotel/chalet/garage I do them up as tight as possible, I then hang around the boot room until there is sufficient audience before screaming and shouting about how stiff these boots are as I take them off whilst recalling from memory all the steep and icy runs I can't and didn't do that day.

PS. Be sure to check the open pistes status before doing this so as not to be caught out bragging about a run that was closed all day.

PPS. In the event of being caught out by above closed piste question the get out is as always, "yah, but I spoke to the lifties I know and they said it's fine so I ducked under the rope and it was an epic run"
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I like the cut of your jib, @ansta1.

My approach also involves hiding my knackered rentals and taking a pair of Whitedot Ragnaroks to the après bar. Even if there hasn't been any pow in weeks.

I also put duct tape on my clothes even if they're not torn.
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I've used Salamon SX 91 Eqippes for years - on piste terrain and love them. This is daily skiing for weeks to months and over seasons. Totally comfortable and outstanding transmission of me to the ski. They have great forward rake, they're light and they have many comfort combinations. No other boot has kept my heal rise in control like those. I look down the fall line, I go and the boots are tuned to what my mind and legs are doing.

I used them December 2016 after being packed away for 10 years. Evvvvveryone said hey careful they'll break. They could have but didn't. Interestingly my wife bought Nordica Boots and when packing to go skiing (those had also been in the same storage as the Salmons), the outer shell literally crumbled in my hand. For safety my Salomons' are retired but i wish the Brand would return them to skiers. Innovative design, long lasting and did their job plus plus every day. Salomon come on, its time to differentiate from the pack who year after year produce the same 4 buckle set up albeit with different cosmetics and a whole load of marketing BS.
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It is a long time since I skied in them and time blurs memories but they were certainly easier to get into and walk about in. I think the front entry holds the foot better. Whatever happened to mid entry?
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I had some years ago that tightened with a wheel thing at the back. If the chairlift caught you wrong it would activate this release butoon in the middle of the wheel and completely slacken everything off.
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Well you are preaching to the converted here. I skied from the early 80s in a pair of SX90 Equipes. The shell on one boot broke in 2009. I then wasted a year and a whole lot of money trying to find a modern boot with a modicum of comfort and control. I was ready to give up skiing when I found a pair of SX 92 Equipes advertised on Cragslist. I drove down to Denver from Summit to try them on. When I did my feet said to me "THAT'S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT - PAY THE MAN"

I am still skiing on them and have happy feet again.

If Salomon reintroduced the 90 or 92 I would be first in line.

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muddewater wrote:
It is a long time since I skied in them and time blurs memories but they were certainly easier to get into and walk about in. I think the front entry holds the foot better. Whatever happened to mid entry?


Most modern touring boots have similar benefits to a mid entry, Ie the back of the shell can be released but volume is still controlled by an overlap style front with conventional clips.
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Much lighter than top entry boots too.
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Holy Thread Resurrection Batman!

It is February 2017 and my Salomon sx62s are now 27 years old. just had a perfect week in Petit Chatel with good skiing and no foot pain. I was first out of the boot room while all the others were forcing their feet in their "groupthink" designs, faces contorted with agony as they clicked their instruments of torture together, stumbling down the stairs and walking to the lifts like demented robots.

Two years ago I was in the ski hire shop in Hinterglemm and a two metre tall Dutch manager their took one look at the boots and said
"Zeez boots are old and Dangerous, zee plastic could break up and you vill have an accident and spend ze rest of ze veek in ze hospital"

I ignored his advice but he was so strong in his opinion that it dominated my thoughts the next day, so I went back to the ski shop at lunchtime when there were no customers and demanded that they find me the best boots in the shop, money no object.
I now had the full attention of four staff and we went through about six pairs of boots before we arrived at a pair of boots that seemed to fit the bill. I walked (not really a good word to describe my new form of progress!) out of the shop and up to the lifts. So they were a little tight but hey, if I now ski like a champion, small penalty to pay.

At the top of the lift I had about 200 yards to ski across to the next chairlift. Level piste, perfect snow and very little slope.
Now I have been skiing since 1983 and although I freely admit I am no expert I am usually in front of the rest and very rarely fall even on the blacks and off piste.

I fell twice on the 200 yard run to the chairlift and hurt my shoulder quite badly. I have no idea why. I went to the top of the chairlift and tried to ski down a run that I had been down many times that morning but I had no control at all.

it felt as though my ankles were not supported, or perhaps my calves. Too much flex in the boots. Perhaps this is perfect for people who want to do off piste or ski jumps

I took the boots straight back to the shop, nursing my shoulder and did not care what I said in my anger to the Dutchman, two metres or not.

My conclusion is that once you have found a comfortable boot which allows you to walk normally, that does not give pain and you are keeping up easily with the people you are skiing with why change? I also have to say that they are stored properly out of the sunlight and extremes of temperature.
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